EMG's in an Esquire?

[jdredskinsfan]

Hey all.

In a short amount of time I'm going to put together a partscaster/Esquire, and I have a complete list of parts excluding the pickup. I recently heard talk of people buying a single EMG pickup (http://www.emginc.com/displayproduct...ca talogid=46) and putting it in the bridge position with just the volume and tone knobs and no three way switch like a normal Esquire. Knowing that, I have two questions. If I were to do this, exactly how much tone control would I have? Also, if I chose to go a different route and wanted to wire it like a typical Esquire, would this be possible knowing that the EMG would be active?

I'm just trying to figure out my options here.
Thanks!

[bradpdx]

This is just my opinion has one who has used EMG rigs in both Strats and Teles.

The passive tone control on EMGs doesn't do much of value IMHO. On a good passive pickup, the tone control creates some interesting color due to the reactive nature of the pickup - the tone control adjusts the resonant peak of the pickup.

EMGs have no reactance and so the tone control just gently rolls off treble. I have not found this useful in the way that passive PUPs are.

I would instead recommend that you replace the tone control with one of the EMG active modules, such as the SPC control. This lets you dial in midrange and gain, which would probably be fun on an Esquire setup. I have used this control on both Strats and Teles and it adds a powerful humbucker-ish sound.

I will add that I stopped using EMGs despite the smooth response and low noise; I just prefer the behavior and character of traditional resonant pickups.

[maestrovert]

Originally Posted by bradpdx

This is just my opinion has one who has used EMG rigs in both Strats and Teles.

The passive tone control on EMGs doesn't do much of value IMHO. On a good passive pickup, the tone control creates some interesting color due to the reactive nature of the pickup - the tone control adjusts the resonant peak of the pickup.

EMGs have no reactance and so the tone control just gently rolls off treble. I have not found this useful in the way that passive PUPs are.

I would instead recommend that you replace the tone control with one of the EMG active modules, such as the SPC control.

i'd install the EMG T bridge P-up into an Esquire in a heartbeat ! Speaking only for myself, i would jes' go ahead an wire it direct (vol & tone pots--> output), bypassing the switch entirely, but it shouldn't be too much problem to calculate the appropriate cap value for the Bass(y) switch position if that's the way you wanna roll....

i myself wouldn't use the SPC or EXG controls, as i'd rather not lose the capability to roll off some highs.... 'sides, a good wah pedal judiciously applied can give ya some "peak" too.....

Jes' m.h.o.,
y.m.m.v.

[BrianF]

I used the EMG T Set for a gig for the first time this weekend. I like them although I find that I don't like the neck pickup alone. I like the middle and bridge but I wish I had one more setting to get that fat sound like when you connect passive bridge and neck pickups in series. The SPC control sounds like an interesting option to me. Can someone explain how this boost circuit is wired in elctrically? (not mechanically?) I want to understand where it is in the signal chain. And it makes you lose your normal Tone control? Other things I've found with the EMG...Tone control takes more travel on the knob to get a decent treble cut....and these pickups have plenty of treble that needs taming for my needs. One last thing....since these pickups are active and a low noise, low impedance out....they essentially 'look' like a pedal output in that regard. That being the case....the first pedal in a pedal chain like a compressor...cranks uo it's own gain at low or no volume and you hear alot of backround hiss though your amp even when you roll off you guitars volume knob completely (when taking a break between songs).

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by BrianF

The SPC control sounds like an interesting option to me. Can someone explain how this boost circuit is wired in elctrically? (not mechanically?) I want to understand where it is in the signal chain. And it makes you lose your normal Tone control?

Other things I've found with the EMG...you hear alot of backround hiss though your amp even when you roll off you guitars volume knob completely (when taking a break between songs).

The EMG active modules go "in series" with the output from the pickups. While there is no need to eliminate your regular tone knob, it is usually done because of physical limitations (e.g., number of holes!).

The EMG active modules are never fully "out of circuit". They all work by:
1. Using an active circuit that produces a fixed output with respect to EQ
2. A "blend" pot that connects the input to the output, thus allowing you to "sweep" from the input signal (from the pickups) to the output signal (from the module). This is a compromise design, and the result is that the EQ changes from the module are never fully "dialed out". Example: if you install the SPC control as recommended by EMG, it will fatten up the sound a bit even when turned ALL THE WAY DOWN, which is supposed to be "off" for the module. When turned up, more midrange is added.

Because of this fact, I often modified EMG modules in order to allow full "off" settings. This meant adding preamp stages, and I won't go into that here. Still, the SPC is quite useful for warming up bridge PUPs and for an Esquire might be a useful tool.

As to the noise - stock EMGs place the volume control at the end of the chain, and so turning it all the way down is exactly the same as with a passive guitar - there is nothing left to make noise. Your compressor is just making noise, like it would with any guitar that is "off".

That said, EMGs do produce audible hiss that is amplified by compressors, overdrives, etc. This is usually preferable to good ol' hum and buzz

[BrianF]

Thanks Brad...I am trying to formulate some ideas of my own on how to work with these active pickups with regard to tone shaping. If the pickups indeed are internally 'active' then that means that each pickup ouput is coming from the output of an opamp or transistor output..or they could be AC coupled from opamps or transistor stages. It would be nice to exactly what the pickup source impedance and drive look like (ie what is the equivalent output circuit?) to fully understand how to deal with them...aside from just blindly following an EMG hook-up diagram. Not knowing this....one doesn't understand even how hooking two pickups in parallel is accomplished electronically. At a minimum...there must be some series source resistance looking back into each pickup output....otherwise the active output circuits would be shorted together etc. There doesn't appear to be this kind of info available on EMG's website..

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by BrianF

Thanks Brad...I am trying to formulate some ideas of my own on how to work with these active pickups with regard to tone shaping. If the pickups indeed are internally 'active' then that means that each pickup ouput is coming from the output of an opamp or transistor output..or they could be AC coupled from opamps or transistor stages. It would be nice to exactly what the pickup source impedance and drive look like (ie what is the equivalent output circuit?) to fully understand how to deal with them...aside from just blindly following an EMG hook-up diagram. Not knowing this....one doesn't understand even how hooking two pickups in parallel is accomplished electronically. At a minimum...there must be some series source resistance looking back into each pickup output....otherwise the active output circuits would be shorted together etc. There doesn't appear to be this kind of info available on EMG's website..

EMG makes this really simple for us all.

The EMG circuits are all op-amp based, with very few (if any) discrete transistors. Each pickup has a simple embedded preamp with mild tone shaping EQ and a fixed 10K resistor at the output. The 10K resistor acts as a "mixing" resistor when pickups are combined, etc. Because of this you don't have to worry about shorting them or harming them.

They are AC coupled, and so there is no DC at the output. The size of the output cap is such that frequency response is not affected by load, since the 10K resistor sets the minimum load.

You are correct that if EMG didn't do this, combining pickups would be a messy affair.

The EMG active modules each have an output resistance of 2K, set by a resistor as well. This difference in output impedance can create some mixing issues, since the signal from the 2K source will dominate the signal from a 10K source when combined (all else being equal).

Obviously the EMG pickup preamps cannot be modified without breaking the pickup. The active modules can be modified, but they are now surface mount constructed which makes it more difficult than earlier versions.

In the past I have modified EMG active modules to be switchable and use preamps to create "zero impedance" points that allow the effects to be truly "dialed out". However, these days I am using plain old fashioned VanZandt pickups and so no active stuff in my guitars. Hum, yes. Batteries, no.

[bradpdx]

I will add one other note about EMGs:

In common passive pickups, the inductance of the pickup creates a "tank circuit" when it is combined with the capacitance of the cable. This is one part of the classic "tone shaping" of good passive PUPs.

But think about it: when 2 pickups are combined in parallel, the output impedance is halved. This results in a doubling of the resonant frequency, and thus the combined pickups have more extended treble than either one by itself. This is especially evident on Strats when pickups are combined, just listen closely. It is a big part of the "quack" and sparkle that these guitars have.

EMGs approach of course doesn't work this way - pickups are just mixed and there is no effect upon frequency response. The result is that some things just behave differently that you may expect.

On an regular Strat set, I depend upon that mild treble boost when combining pickups. On EMGs, those same switch positions often sound too "fat" because there is no change in treble response. For that reason I used to add a mild treble boost to my Strats for only those switch positions, using a modified EMG RPC. I don't know if they still make that thing.

[jdredskinsfan]

I guess it might just come down to some trial and error stuff if I want to get the sound I'm looking for out of the pickup. I certainly think putting EMG's in my parsquire will be interesting so I guess the best way to figure it out will be to get it and work around with it.

[newtwanger]

I tried the EMG-RT (rear tele) in my Esquire:


First with just the Tone & Vol, then SPC & Vol, then Tone, SPC & Vol as pictured here.

Rick (or Rich, I can't remember) the EMG tech guy couldn't figure out any use for the 3 way switch other than as a kill switch. I wanted to have a "dark" circuit like a real esquire and was told it wouldn't work with the EMG wiring.

It's a very cool setup but I just prefer my Don Mare pickup.

(anyone wants it cheap contact me )

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by newtwanger

I
Rick (or Rich, I can't remember) the EMG tech guy couldn't figure out any use for the 3 way switch other than as a kill switch. I wanted to have a "dark" circuit like a real esquire and was told it wouldn't work with the EMG wiring.

You could come up with some interesting switch selections, but your tech didn't know how. Personally, I'd do it:

1. Bridge with no SPC - brightest setting
2. Bridge with SPC - midrange boost kicks in
3. Bridge with dark circuit (yes, this can be done with EMGs)

I'd skip the passive tone control, they just are not useful in EMG setups due the lack of a resonant peak in the pickup response. Just use the SPC for darker tones.

[newtwanger]

Originally Posted by bradpdx

You could come up with some interesting switch selections, but your tech didn't know how. Personally, I'd do it:

Then you would be brighter than EMGs only tech guy. It was he who told me it could not be done. There's a heck of alot going on there that's nothing at all like a regular guitar wiring, you can't just add caps and resistors. I was in contact for over 2 weeks and a dozen emails. If you can do it, send some diagrams my was and I'll ask EMG why their guy can't.

Originally Posted by bradpdx

3. Bridge with dark circuit (yes, this can be done with EMGs)

Is this from experience or assumption? I had assumed this but was shot down with any diagrams I presented.

Originally Posted by bradpdx

I'd skip the passive tone control, they just are not useful in EMG setups due the lack of a resonant peak in the pickup response. Just use the SPC for darker tones.

As you can see from my pic above, I disagree. There's alot more tones with the versatility of both knobs.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by newtwanger

Then you would be brighter than EMGs only tech guy. It was he who told me it could not be done. There's a heck of alot going on there that's nothing at all like a regular guitar wiring, you can't just add caps and resistors. I was in contact for over 2 weeks and a dozen emails. If you can do it, send some diagrams my was and I'll ask EMG why their guy can't.

I know exactly how EMG stuff works - I've designed stuff like this for other companies. The only "trick" is to do some disassembly of the SPC control in order to create a true "no load" on/off switch for it.

I can draw this up and post it, just not right this red hot minute.

The best you can do for a "dark" circuit is simply to hang a big cap across the pickup - which is easy, since your 3-way switch doesn't have to select pickups. So...

1. 1/2 of the 3 way switch selects tone control and dark options
2. 1/2 of the 3 way switch defeats or engages the SPC

The latter item requires that you snip one of the pot leads from the SPC and do a little redirection But it is easy and I have done it many times.

[bradpdx]

Here is a version...



In this circuit, the 3 way switch is shown in the #1 position. You can elect to have the tone control in or out here. Position #2 uses the tone control. Position #3 eliminates the tone control and places a large cap (your choice of value, probably 0.2mfd) for a "dark" setting.

Simultaneously, the other half of the switch engages or disengages the SPC control, modified as shown. In position #1, the SPC is out of circuit as the output pot is simply disconnected from the device. In positions #2 and #3, the control is reinstated.

The addition resistors are there to prevent noises from occurring as the switch is moved from position to position.

Any questions, just ask.

[newtwanger]

Thanks Bradpdx, I'll be bugging you next time I change strings, I'll throw on the EMG setup wired this way.
Wonder why the EMG guy couldn't tell me something like this?
Got lots of emails telling me it "can't be done" and "wasn't made for that" though.

Can this be done with the tone control knob replacing the caps?(I can dial in the darkness) I'd hide it in the cavity so only 2 knobs would be visible.

thankya sir.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by newtwanger

Thanks Bradpdx, I'll be bugging you next time I change strings, I'll throw on the EMG setup wired this way.
Wonder why the EMG guy couldn't tell me something like this?
Got lots of emails telling me it "can't be done" and "wasn't made for that" though.

Can this be done with the tone control knob replacing the caps?(I can dial in the darkness) I'd hide it in the cavity so only 2 knobs would be visible.

thankya sir.

EMG won't tell you to do this because it involves modifying a product - in this case, cutting a pot lead from an SPC control and tacking resistors onto the little circuit board. That kind of stuff violates warranties, and so they don't support it.

But it works. It's just electronics.

You can certainly use the tone control to get darkness and adjust the tone control cap to whatever value you wish. No problem there.