Fender Wide Range Humbuckers

[Telenator]

Does anyone know if the the covers on the new Fender '72 Thinline re-issue pickups are the same size as the originals?

What I'm most interested in is the hole spacing for the magnet slugs. Is the spacing the same as the originals?

I have found a source for CuNiFe magnets and need to have a few bobbins machined. I can extrapolate the bobbin size from the hole pattern on the original pickup cover, but sadly have no pickup to measure.

If anyone wants in on this project, contact me. I'll be having some parts made and of course, the more parts I buy, the less each one will cost.

Also, I'm looking for any leads of info on the magnet material that sits on the baseplate of the pickup. The "mystery magnet" material. Thanks.

[littlericky]

I don't have an original but I can tell you that the pole screws do not line up with the holes in the covers on the MIM RI. Looks the the originals were much closer but still off.

[Telenator]

If I could just get the measurements of the pole spacing I can figure out the rest. I have tried to buy an original but can't seem to find one anywhere. It's just a matter of time.

Thanks for the photos!

[braderrick]

There's a buch of '70s thinline, customs, and deluxes on ebay. I assume most of them are authentic. You could do the "ask seller a question" thing. But like you said it's just a matter of time, I know there are tons of members on this forum that can help you out, and I'm sure they will.

[quartermiler45]

I'd be interested in hearing more about this project.

[lammy]

ooo. me too!

[Telenator]

Well, I have a source for the CuNiFe magnets and since the MIM pickup covers are most readily available, I'll probably base the pickups on that hole pattern even though it's not exactly like the the original. The few thousanths of an inch difference in pole spacing shouldn't be a big deal.

The one mystery remaining though, is the magnet material under the coils. I need to see an original pickup disassembled in order to to sort this bit out.

Anyone with a WRHB that has photos of the innards would be very welcome to join in here. I have the parts for my 72 Thinline. Now I just need the p'ups!

[littlericky]

I'm confused. Originals use threaded cunife magnets as the poles, there is no magnet underneath. RI pickups use "steel" screws for the poles, there not magnets, therefore there are alnico(MIM) or ceramic(MIJ) bar magnets under the coils. You need one or the other, not both.

The simplest thing would be to have cunife screws made,threaded to replace the steel screws in RI pickups, just remember to make them the correct length as per the originals. You'll sell a truckload of them. It would be easy enough for modders to remove the bar magnets,use shims in thier place, and install the new cunife screws.

[jefrs]

GFS do something like these 'Vintage Split Pole' about 8K, which sound authentic. I could not find genuine Fender WR either. This one is cheap enough that you could use it for parts. With it fitted it would be difficult to make measurements accurate enough for engineering work. The strings do pass directly over the poles on the 07 AmSer. The unit went straight into a stock pickguard, note single dog-ears. I've only made pickups from odd bits like re-winding big solenoids onto a bar magnet, so good luck with your project.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by littlericky

I'm confused. Originals use threaded cunife magnets as the poles, there is no magnet underneath. RI pickups use "steel" screws for the poles, there not magnets, therefore there are alnico(MIM) or ceramic(MIJ) bar magnets under the coils. You need one or the other, not both.

The simplest thing would be to have cunife screws made,threaded to replace the steel screws in RI pickups, just remember to make them the correct length as per the originals. You'll sell a truckload of them. It would be easy enough for modders to remove the bar magnets,use shims in thier place, and install the new cunife screws.

From what I've been told, there is a piece, or small sheet of magnetic material that the bobbins rest on. I have not been able to get my hands on an original WRH to take it apart and see this for myself.

If it truly is a simple matter of replacing the threaded magnets, then I'm golden!

Anyone care to take a guess at the gaussing spec? And polarity of the originals?

I have the winding specs but don't know if the Re-issues match that spec. I'll have to pull one apart and see.

[TELE_BLUES]

The p.u.'s i have from the 2005 mim '72 thinline reissue have an outside polepiece spacing center to center of 2.100"

[WrapAround]

Originally Posted by jefrs

GFS do something like these 'Vintage Split Pole' about 8K, which sound authentic. I could not find genuine Fender WR either.

I'm interested in WRs as well, so I have to ask this question. What does "sound authentic" really mean in this case? Did you A/B it with a real WR ('real' as in NOT a reissue one)? Or does it mean, "it sounds like how i remember old WRs sound like."?

[vikki]

Is this the same Humbucker as in the 72 Custom, if so i have an original and a modern Japanese copy. I have digital calipers...if you need measurements let me know.
Regards
Vikki(uk)

[TELE_BLUES]

I have a rewound WRHB i don't remember if it's a mij or mim.I had OWEN (OWEN DUFFY, O.C. DUFF) rewind it for me,he suggested alnico II and i'm real happy with it.

[boneyguy]

If it turns out to be as simple as threading the CuNiFe rods then you might consider selling just the threaded pole pieces to those who already have the RI pickups??!!

[quartermiler45]

If this project is successful you will be the most popular man around, I might name my first born after you. Please keep us up to date on this project.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by vikki

Is this the same Humbucker as in the 72 Custom, if so i have an original and a modern Japanese copy. I have digital calipers...if you need measurements let me know.
Regards
Vikki(uk)

Thanks vikki. Yes, the '72 Custom pickups are the same as the '72 Thinline.

What I really need is to see how the pickup is put together. How the bobbins sit on the tray and if there is any material between the bobbins and the tray.

I am going to base my dimensions on the MIM pickup covers since they're most readily available.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by TELE_BLUES

The p.u.'s i have from the 2005 mim '72 thinline reissue have an outside polepiece spacing center to center of 2.100"

With the same spacing for the bridge and neck? Or are they wider on the bridge?

I wonder if either the CIJs or the originals are spaced differently on the bridge compared to the neck?

[RumorsofsurF]

You found a source for CuNIFe?!?!?!

Outstanding. I want in! My MIM Tele Deluxe needs some CuNIFe M@J@!!!

[Telenator]

I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress.

I just need to see one of the originals in pieces and I'll move forward with this.

[TELE_BLUES]

YEGBERT,The ones on my 2005 mim are the same.

[GUITARmole]

Originally Posted by WrapAround

I'm interested in WRs as well, so I have to ask this question. What does "sound authentic" really mean in this case? Did you A/B it with a real WR ('real' as in NOT a reissue one)? Or does it mean, "it sounds like how i remember old WRs sound like."?

My thought exactly...it "sounds authentic" but that's coming from someone that couldn't find an original one so they have no basis of comparison??

I'm also confused about Telenator's intentions and/or motivation for the project?? If you don't have an original to inspect, listen to, and base the design of your polepieces or pickup on what's the inspiration for cloning an original WR?...and how are you going to know if you succeeded or not when done with nothing to compare the clone with??

CuNiFe magnets are (have been) available but to buy them from a supplier for use in pickups you'd need to buy them in rod form that's the correct diameter and have the rod threaded and cut to size along with having a flathead slot cut into one edge. Most (all?) of the magnet suppliers I know of also require a big quantity of magnets to be purchased (especially if you're specifying rod size, etc). I hate to be such a skeptic...but if it was so simple to secure CuNiFe polepieces in the proper configuration I would think that Fender would have done it for the reissues...and they're (Fender) certainly able to buy in larger quantities than Telenator is. If building an accurate WR is beyond the ability of Fender, Seymour Duncan, and Dimarzio I find it hard to believe that it's EVER going to happen.

The size of the bobbins, windings, construction, etc of the reissues and originals are completely different so it isn't as simple as putting CuNiFe mags in a reissue pickup. The polepieces aren't even the same size and don't have the same thread pattern (see original on bottom, reissue on top w/ wax around it to fit in the larger cover)



Original WR humbuckers are readily available...I see them EVERY week on fleabay and seem to be hovering around the $350-$400 range. Assuming someone has the money to fund sourcing and machining for CuNiFe magnets the purchase of an original $400 WR for research and comparison purposes is a "drop in the bucket".

My advice to those that want the tone of an original WR...BUY ONE!!

FWIW, I actualy hope Telenator will prove me wrong...I'm not holding my breath in the meantime though...

[TELE_BLUES]

I'm no detective but i thought something looked kinda strange when i took the cover off my mim wrhb .I had the cover off an original i had well over 20 years ago.This reminds me of a really cheap les paul copy i had when i was a kid.It was the brightest sounding l.p. ever.One day the bridge p.u. stopped working and i took it out to have a look when i popped the cover off i found a single coil strat like p.u. under the humbucker cover.No wonder i could never figure out why it always hummed so badly.Oh those crafty and oh so thrifty devils at fender stuck a cheapo mi who knows where humbucker in my wrhb case.I really liked the original '72 thinline i had way back when but it's hard to remeber exactly what it sounded like,but i was pretty sure the reissue was quite a bit different sounding.

[Telenator]

I simply enjoy taking on projects that others have either abandoned or said, "that can't be done." Vintage Vibe in fact does make a replacement of sorts for a wide range humbucker. Perhaps the reason no one else does is simply because the demand isn't there. But that doesn't concern me.

My RickenRocker is an example of the lengths I'll go to when I'm presented with a challange.

I always wanted a Ric 360 but was bitterly disappointed when I finally bought one, so I made two of them to my own personal specs.

My carved top Tele is the same thing.


When I built this guitar, no one made anything like it. I wanted a carved top Tele with P90's so I built one.

I don't sell them. I just love a good project.

Having owned an original '72 Thinline, I have a soft spot for the guitar. I have recently purchased a used Tele neck and a MIM Thinline body from my fellow TDPRI members and these pickups will be going into this guitar.

Sure, I could just go out and spend $800 on a set of used WRHB's from ebay, but what fun is that? For a few more bucks, I can likely have the parts made and the bobbins wound for several of these and if people are interested, I'd be happy to discuss moving the excess at my cost. Of course that raises some other issues with the TDPRI here but, that too can be discussed. I'm not looking to get rich here. Just trying to have a good discussion and share the spoils! Projects like this are always the most fun when several people get involved and help eachother see it through. I'm just doing it as a personal project and hopefully, we can all benefit from it by having something really cool. And if no one is interested, that's fine too.

The worst thing someone can say to me is, "that can't be done." It's just my nature.

[GUITARmole]

Originally Posted by Telenator

Sure, I could just go out and spend $800 on a set of used WRHB's from ebay, but what fun is that? For a few more bucks, I can likely have the parts made and the bobbins wound for several of these and if people are interested, I'd be happy to discuss moving the excess at my cost. Of course that raises some other issues with the TDPRI here but, that too can be discussed. I'm not looking to get rich here. Just trying to have a good discussion and share the spoils! Projects like this are always the most fun when several people get involved and help eachother see it through.

Agreed!! Since you're not looking to get rich and you want to get several people involved you should reveal your "source" so we can get the project rolling Like I said, there are several sources for CuNiFe magnets...just none that I'm aware of that will machine them and sell them in small enough quantities for hobbyists at a low enough price.


I'm not saying it "can't be done"...I'm just saying it can't be done for a few more bucks (than $800)!...A few THOUSAND more bucks...yeah, maybe

For crap's sake...if you browse the pickup winders forums those guys are having a tough enough time getting quality Alnico rod magnets affordably in small enough quantities for 'boutique' winders...finding CuNiFe THREADED rods and having the correct size bobbins manufactured would be even more difficult and expensive!

[Telenator]

Without getting way on into this, I have access to a machine shop and some friends in the business. Whipping up a few parts is not a big deal. The hardest part is getting a pickup to dismantle and get exact measurments from.

Once I have all the pieces in place I'll be happy to reveal everything. Lets not get carried away in the words and rush this. Until I have some actual pieces in my hands, (see original post), everything here is mere speculation.

I might even fail. But I have to start somewhere.

[spankdplank]

I have an old Tele Custom with an original Wide Range. Several years ago I had the cover off. I am positive there wasn't anything magnetic between the bottom of the bobbin and the base plate. The only things magnetic were the pole pieces. I think there might have been strip of electrical tape on the underside of the bobbin between where the pole pieces/magnets thread through the bobbin, but I'm not completely sure. The bobbins were noticeably wider and flatter than on a regular or Gibson sized humbucker.

[spankdplank]

I also recall that the cunife magnets had opposite magnetic poles. In other words the slotted, screw head side was positive on the pole pieces that fed from the top of the pickup, but the screw head side was negative on the pole pieces that fed from the bottom of the pickup, so that the polarity of all 12 pole pieces accross the top of entire pickup was the same.

[Telenator]

Thanks for the info! Every bit helps!

[spankdplank]

Telenator--I have been planning on doing a some work on my old Custom to get it back into gig shape and I will have the pickguard off, probably this weekend. PM me with what specifically you need and I will try and get the info for you. The pickup cover is soddered to the base and I am not planning on removing the sodder, but let me know what specifically you are looking for and I will try and oblige.

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by GUITARmole

The size of the bobbins, windings, construction, etc of the reissues and originals are completely different so it isn't as simple as putting CuNiFe mags in a reissue pickup. The polepieces aren't even the same size and don't have the same thread pattern

it shouldn't matter so much if the threading is different, all it means is that telenator has to size the pieces for the reissue pickups and forget about the specs of the original. i don't think anyone has the intention of putting cunife polepieces into an original wide range humbucker, which is one of the most expensive pickups you could possibly buy to perform this test and should already have cunife polepieces inside anyway, so unless i'm missing something he doesn't have to worry about his polepieces fitting both versions of the pickup, just the reissues.

Originally Posted by GUITARmole

My advice to those that want the tone of an original WR...BUY ONE!!

the prices stopped being reasonable long ago. i can remember seeing them on ebay a few years ago for just $180, then as the reissues became popular the prices skyrocketed and now they're pushing $500 each. they may be great, unique pickups, but by the time they get to $1,200 a set even the best pickups in the world wouldn't justify the price.


i think it's a very exciting idea and i hope it works, telenator. if you successfully create a hybrid of the reissue pickups with the cunife magnets that's practical to make and sounds good, you could easily help a lot of people convert their own pickups without having to pay the extreme costs on ebay, not to mention make a good deal of money for yourself. keep us updated as often as you can

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

it shouldn't matter so much if the threading is different, all it means is that telenator has to size the pieces for the reissue pickups and forget about the specs of the original. i don't think anyone has the intention of putting cunife polepieces into an original wide range humbucker, which is one of the most expensive pickups you could possibly buy to perform this test and should already have cunife polepieces inside anyway, so unless i'm missing something he doesn't have to worry about his polepieces fitting both versions of the pickup, just the reissues.
...
i think it's a very exciting idea and i hope it works, telenator. if you successfully create a hybrid of the reissue pickups with the cunife magnets that's practical to make and sounds good, you could easily help a lot of people convert their own pickups without having to pay the extreme costs on ebay, not to mention make a good deal of money for yourself. keep us updated as often as you can

I've read that the dimensions of the bobbin and the guage of the winding wire (just to name a couple of differences, I'm sure there are others), may impart a unique character to the pickup. The closer a replacement can be made to original design and production specifications in terms of material and construction, the better the chances are it will have the same tonal character, right?

[Telenator]

Right now, the biggest concern is the metal covers. I can whip up a bunch of larger bobbins to wind, but getting the pole pieces spaced properly presents a big problem with the available covers. MIM covers are plentiful but the pole spacing as far as I can tell, (without having two to compare), is different.

So, I need to:
A) Make the coils/bobbins in a size that fits the MIM covers or,....

B) Make the coils/bobbins, the actual size of the original and come up with a new cover design that won't cost a fortune to make.

If I could just get the complete dimensions of both a MIM and original WRHB, I could sort this all out and get started.

[GUITARmole]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

it shouldn't matter so much if the threading is different, all it means is that telenator has to size the pieces for the reissue pickups and forget about the specs of the original. i don't think anyone has the intention of putting cunife polepieces into an original wide range humbucker, which is one of the most expensive pickups you could possibly buy to perform this test and should already have cunife polepieces inside anyway, so unless i'm missing something he doesn't have to worry about his polepieces fitting both versions of the pickup, just the reissues.

Magnet size, bobbin size, windings, etc etc etc are ALL as important as using the correct magnet material (CuNiFe) don't you think?

[Telenator]

I think the coil/bobbin size is important. I am hoping that the spacing between the two coils is at least very close between the MIM and the original. If so, I can use MIM covers.

[jefrs]

Originally Posted by WrapAround

I'm interested in WRs as well, so I have to ask this question. What does "sound authentic" really mean in this case? Did you A/B it with a real WR ('real' as in NOT a reissue one)? Or does it mean, "it sounds like how i remember old WRs sound like."?

How long is a piece of string?

I know it was a bit subjective. Tricky things, words.

As in it sounds like I've heard old WR played, both live and recorded.

As in sounds like the 72 Custom (and strat) I used to try out amps and cabs in shop: Epi head+Laney cab; Laney L20H head+GS212IE cab; Champ and Gretsch; AC30CC2and AC30CCX (both awesome but Laney gave them a spanking).

Although much varies depending on player, guitar, fx, amp etc. My ears, your ears. Whatever guitar I use, clean or fx, it always sounds like me. Difficult to compare old WR to new, short of A/B in same guitar to an oscilloscope.

They are not too hot and match the strength of the AmSer 'high output' bridge pup. Fairly bright for hb with plenty bass, back off for cooler sound, not for hm. I igonored the coil tap and the coils are in series, which is normal config. Also hot was in phase with bridge which was a bit of luck.

[shades]

I fell in love with the tone from a set of wide range humbuckers that were in the '98 Toronado that I once owned...the current build project in the works here is a hybrid '72 custom/deluxe Tele. I ordered a set of WRHB's from my Fender dealer for $65 apiece brand new. I'm hoping that the new WR's are as sweet as the ones in that Toronado.

[Telenator]

I'm still workiong on this. I work at a motorcycle magazine publisher and we're always on deadline and it's been crazy lately. I'm off to work in the Bahamas for a four days and will be back at this on Tuesday.

[ezrydr]

Telenator -

here ya go

please let me know if you need any details I have left out. I will leave the pups apart for a couple days in case you need other measurements.

Funny, a couple days ago I had no idea what these even were or what they were worth

first shot - bottom of pickup

outside diameter of cover 3.135" x 1.77" x .6"

[ezrydr]

cover off