Fender Wide Range Humbuckers

[genome]

I noticed you said that you went through a couple test versions of these pups you're working on. I just got a 72 Deluxe RI not to long ago and I love the way the guitar feels, but I have the same complaint as everyone else, the ri pup's leave something to be desired. I already have new 500k pots coming and a push/pull for the bridge. What I was wondering is, if any of your test pup's were a hotter pup? Thats what I'm interested in. Also if a suitable replacement the same size can't be found, how hard would it be to just put a different pup in the wr cover since that's all the ri's are anyway? Has anyone done this option yet?

[Telenator]

Mine are definitely louder than the stock MIM re-issues. Very nice, saturated tone!

If you take the cover off of a re-issue pickup, you will find two standard size coils that are spaced about a 1/4" apart from eachother and wrapped in felt that has been soaked in wax. For someone who works on pickups regularly, it's not a huge deal to put new coils in there but that's not going to make as big a difference in sound as the method I'm using. Mine are essentially two single coil, Tele bridge size, pickups mounted next to eachother, (like the original 70's WRHB), with 12 alnico V magnets in each pickup. A standard humbucker has a bar magnet mounted underneath the coils, (like the MIM re-issue) which gives the pickup a completely different sound.

Right now, we have a pickup spec that sounds awesome and works extremely well with 500k pots. The vintage spec we're working on right now will be tested with 1 meg pots. I'm insanely busy right now, but hoping to have a test p'up finished and tested by Saturday. Fingers crossed and hopin' for the best!!!

[JohnK24]

Hey look...one original (w/box) on ebay...only $795 ?!??!?!....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1972-FENDER-TELE...QQcmdZViewItem


Dang...I've been listening to Tab Benoit for the past few weeks...and it's killing me not having a 72 Thinline...

[jivetrain]

i pointed that out as well; things are silly. but i've actually seen a few wide ranges go for reasonable amounts in the last few auctions i've watched; some lucky bastard won a set of two wide ranges for $230 a few days ago.

[Telenator]

Ha! maybe they're reading this thread and it's ruining the market! LOL!

[genome]

Originally Posted by Telenator

Mine are definitely louder than the stock MIM re-issues. Very nice, saturated tone!

If you take the cover off of a re-issue pickup, you will find two standard size coils that are spaced about a 1/4" apart from eachother and wrapped in felt that has been soaked in wax. For someone who works on pickups regularly, it's not a huge deal to put new coils in there but that's not going to make as big a difference in sound as the method I'm using. Mine are essentially two single coil, Tele bridge size, pickups mounted next to eachother, (like the original 70's WRHB), with 12 alnico V magnets in each pickup. A standard humbucker has a bar magnet mounted underneath the coils, (like the MIM re-issue) which gives the pickup a completely different sound.

Right now, we have a pickup spec that sounds awesome and works extremely well with 500k pots. The vintage spec we're working on right now will be tested with 1 meg pots. I'm insanely busy right now, but hoping to have a test p'up finished and tested by Saturday. Fingers crossed and hopin' for the best!!!

Well if you're going to be making these in any significant number, I wouldn't mind picking up a pair.

[Telenator]

We will probably produce around 30 pickups. This whole thing depends on what you guys think once the final vintage spec is arrived at, sound clips are heard and a few sent out for un-biased testing by some of the folks on the guitar forums. It's a fair investment to buy the materials, have the bobbins machined, wind the coils, assemble the pickups, take orders and ship them out. I'm hoping to just spread the wealth a bit, cover our expenses, make a few bucks maybe and pretty much just do a cool project. We're not pickup manufacturers. Just crazy guys with a little time, ambition and a desire to do something different! LOL!

[John Lipfert]

Originally Posted by Telenator

We will probably produce around 30 pickups. This whole thing depends on what you guys think once the final vintage spec is arrived at, sound clips are heard and a few sent out for un-biased testing by some of the folks on the guitar forums. It's a fair investment to buy the materials, have the bobbins machined, wind the coils, assemble the pickups, take orders and ship them out. I'm hoping to just spread the wealth a bit, cover our expenses, make a few bucks maybe and pretty much just do a cool project. We're not pickup manufacturers. Just crazy guys with a little time, ambition and a desire to do something different! LOL!

You know... people make a fortune on a regular basis by fronting their time and a few bucks on some R&D and small time manufacturing, then selling their formula to some big company for a few million. I suggest you follow this route. The work you're doing here is important, maybe to just a small subset of the population, but it's important.

[fakeplastic]

anyone know what the output/resistance of the reissue Wide Range pickups are? I'm guessing around 8k or so?

[jivetrain]

yep. 8.4k for the bridge, 8.0k for the neck

[candletears]

any news on this thread re: orignal spec WRHB available for sale? I'll sign up fo a neck and bridge if you could PM prices. I'm wishing on a star here!

[Telepatio]

I'd also be interested to hear about how this turns out. I'm using a Harmonic Design PAF in the neck of my Tele Custom homebrew and while it sounds good, I want something different. It's too open and fat sounding for me. I don't have much experience with WR's but it seems like either that or a Mini-humbucker is going to wind up in my guitar.

[Telenator]

Hi guys, I'm on the road right now and will be until 9/12 or so. I'm doing a cross country motorcycle ride.

It looks like the price will be $250 to retro-fit a MIM re-issue pickup that you send to me. I know it's expensive but as stated earlier, all the parts are hand machined, hand wound, and assembled. I'll have a full tone report on the vintage spec version shortly after I return and will be ready to produce approx 30 pickups starting in the last week of September.

Internet access is pretty scarce out hear so, pardon me if I'm not around much over the next 10 days or so. Keep on pickin'!

[lightnin1]

I'll sign up for one or two....

[jivetrain]

it's probably obvious but i should ask anyway, will both the vintage spec and normal versions cost the same amount? also i'm hoping you'll have some sound clips of each soon to go along with your run down of the vintage version, otherwise it'll be too hard to decide which one to go for.

it must be nice to know all the work you've put into this is about to pay off, in just two weeks... i expect you'll have more success than you're prepared for, hopefully in a good way

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

it's probably obvious but i should ask anyway, will both the vintage spec and normal versions cost the same amount? also i'm hoping you'll have some sound clips of each soon to go along with your run down of the vintage version, otherwise it'll be too hard to decide which one to go for.

it must be nice to know all the work you've put into this is about to pay off, in just two weeks... i expect you'll have more success than you're prepared for, hopefully in a good way

Honestly, we haven't really discussed the difference in pricing between vintage and non-vintage spec. We're still going over a lot of the details like, whether to make them all "3 wire leads" to make phasing easier for the end user, final magnet specs, and the most difficult part of all, getting magnets cut and ground to the proper length and having the faux screw head appearance. We've been doing this by hand and it is by far, the most time consuming part of the process. We're looking into commercial grinding companies right now but, our quantities are so small, no one is really interested and apparently, magnet grinding is pretty rough on grinding wheels and such. But we're working on it. It is becoming more and more obvious why these pickups are not readily available, because they're a real effort to produce in small numbers and we're just not wanting to take the risk of tooling up for large quantities. (A) The market is very uncertain, and (B) we're really not pickup manufacturers. (C) All of this is postponing my L6-S and scaled up Les Paul guitar builds!

Anyway, jive, our plan is to produce 30 sets, or 60 pickups very soon. I just got back from a two week road trip last night and should be testing the new "vintage spec" pickup with 1 meg pots this weekend at a gig, and comparing it to an original 70's Tele. More to come!

[Telenator]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a vintage spec pickup! I just tried it out tonight and I'm very pleased with it!

It's wired up in my MIM '72 Re-issue Thinline with 1 meg pots and it sounds great. Very vintage! It has that fat bottom end, thick midrange, and chimey highs of the original. I have not compared it to an actual WRHB yet, but will make every effort to do that tomorrow.

The pickup measures 10.89 dc ohms and really pushes my '77 Deluxe Reverb. It sounds best with the treble on 6 and bass on 4 and I have the pickup slanted in the guard with the bass end lower than the treble side. I play .009 - .042 strings on my Tele and I can clearly hear that the highs would benefit from a slightly heavier string guage. hey, I'm a girlie man, what can I say?!

Anyway, we have a spec that seems to work real well. I'll post more impressions tomorrow after I have a chance to compare this side by side with a vintage WRHB. Things are lookin' good!

[jivetrain]

awesome, now i can pester you with some more questions! was the clarity reduced any detectable amount by the extra winds the way you were fearing it may be?

also, since i bypass the tone controls on my guitar it's important for me to have a naturally balanced sound without requiring any further adjustments. do you think you could comfortably play these pickups with 1 megs and tone controls maxed out without the treble ever becoming too bright? can't wait to hear your thoughts tomorrow

[Telenator]

I always keep my tone control on 10 and strive for my best sound with that setting. If anything, this pickup has a tight, present bass sound, rich textural mids, and sparkling highs that needed a little boost by angling the pickup and adjusting the tone controls on the amp. Not racially, just a little nudge on the highs. This will of course be a bit different in every guitar with some producing stellar results and others being not quite as dynamic.

Because of the pickup construction and the 1 meg pots, we are very pleased with the clarity of this pickup. It sounds alot like the original. I will say however that, a previous version of this pickup, while not having the vintage tone, actually sounds a bit better overall to my ear, but that's just a personal preference. The previous version (2 versions ago) is just so juicy and rich sounding. It doesn't have the vintage vibe like this latest one but, in my estimation is one of the better sounding traditional humbuckers I've heard.

I'm doing some further testing today and will post results. Sound clips are still a few days away.

[Rooney]

Well I'm excited. I've been following this since you began and in that time I got a chance to play my latin teachers 70 something Custom and I loved that WRHB in the neck. I can't wait to hear these sounds clips, you're really onto something here.

[ESQUIREoholic]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I always keep my tone control on 10 and strive for my best sound with that setting. If anything, this pickup has a tight, present bass sound, rich textural mids, and sparkling highs that needed a little boost by angling the pickup and adjusting the tone controls on the amp. Not racially, just a little nudge on the highs. This will of course be a bit different in every guitar with some producing stellar results and others being not quite as dynamic.

Because of the pickup construction and the 1 meg pots, we are very pleased with the clarity of this pickup. It sounds alot like the original. I will say however that, a previous version of this pickup, while not having the vintage tone, actually sounds a bit better overall to my ear, but that's just a personal preference. The previous version (2 versions ago) is just so juicy and rich sounding. It doesn't have the vintage vibe like this latest one but, in my estimation is one of the better sounding traditional humbuckers I've heard.

I'm doing some further testing today and will post results. Sound clips are still a few days away.

So I've been following this thread, too.
Awesome!
Telenator,
Thanks for the PM response.

[gibsonjunkie]

Bob,

I'm working Saturday morning so I'd only be able to do some recording on Sunday if you need to. I need to mow my lawn really bad - it's been three weeks and there are things crawling out there - the dog is afraid to go in the back yard.... let me know if you want to get together - I'd like to hear those new p'ups too.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by ESQUIREoholic

So I've been following this thread, too.
Awesome! So are you taking orders?
I'd love to get on that list
I think you are really on to something here.
How would you do it - Build them and use
donor pickup covers from buyers

Moderator edit: please PM Telenator for information, as he cannot discuss items he may or may not have for sale on the TDPRI! Thanks, Tim

[quartermiler45]

How do we get on the ordering list?

[Telenator]

Anyone wishing for more information can simply tap me an e-mail.

bikeshots@earthlink.net

(edited to remove commercial info)

[genome]

I was wondering if anyone happened to know the gauge of the screws used to mount the original wrhb's?

[TDPRI]

I've just been made aware of this thread. I removed it for a few mins to review it.

I think this is exciting to see this project move forward. However, around July this turned into a "COMMERCIAL" post and started violating all of our rules here.

This is important because these rules apply to everyone and they protect the page from what would otherwise be hundreds if not thousands of commercial posts.

I'm putting this thread back on the page but there can be ZERO discussion in post on this thread about buying or selling of these pickups. EVERYONE must obey this or I'll be forced by other commercial entities to allow them to do the same as the folks here are doing.

This was pointed out to me by a commercial member that wanted to use this post as a justification for him and all other commercial members to be allowed to post ADs for their products and take orders for their products.

This is not open for debate and even if you think that commercial posts "wouldn't be such a bad thing" that doesn't matter. If we let one person make commercial posts we have to let all people make commercial posts. And, if that were allowed it would destroy the TDPRI. And I will not let that happen.

[Telenator]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry for violating the rules here. This thread just sort of took on a life of it's own and grew from the fellowship, generosity, curiosity and pioneering spirit of many who participated in it.

Many of you sent me photos of the inside of your original WRHB's and provided detailed measurements and specs I would not have across otherwise. One person on a different forum even sent me an original pickup to study and take dimensions from. In all this excitement to finally have a viable replacement for those MIM re-issue pickups, I got a little carried away and unknowingly broke the rules. Not my intention. There will be no more discussion of pickups for sale. The rules are the rules, and they're good rules!

I heartily thank all of you for your spirit, help and participation in this thread and will post some sound clips as soon as I can so you can all hear results. Just don't be too rough on my guitar playing! I tend to choke when I'm being recorded!

[TDPRI]

Thanks to Telenator for his kind understanding of the situation. I appreciate it. As I told him, I usually am met with epithets and anger.

Discussion of the design and specifics of this pickup is welcome -- desired even... it just can't move into sales discussions, that's all.

Thanks for your understanding.

[ESQUIREoholic]

Gee, I'm sorry if my post escalated a problem here. I wasn't aware that what Telenator was working on and the discussion of his building would be compromised by anything I might have posted.
This has been a great thread for those of us who use the Telecasters with the WRHP's.
I'm very interested in the project Telenator and hope that you will continue to keep us informed as your build evolves.

[Telenator]

No worries E-holic. Paul pointed out that the thread had simply evolved into something which broke the rules concerning commercial posts and he's right. If everyone here were allowed to make commercial posts selling their wares we would soon start getting spammed to death and this forum would no longer be the excellent place that it is. Take away the commercial aspects of this thread and we're left with a glowing example of how a bunch of people came together and helped eachother because of an enthusiasm and common interest. That's just as good as it gets!

The thread will live as long as we refrain from discussions concerning sales or commercial endeavors. That is absolutely fair and in the best interest of the TDPRI.

[uvacom]

This might be a bit much to ask, but it would be really cool if you could post some sound examples (if possible, comparing to original). There just don't seem to be that many sound clips of WRHPs in the first place, and it would be cool to hear how close yours get.

I also want to thank you for taking on this project. It's something I had considered for a while, but I got discouraged when I found out the cost of getting threaded cunife rods made, plus the cost to get covers stamped. You came up with some creative solutions. You have enriched the guitar community's understanding of the WRHB. Thank you. :)

[robt57]

Originally Posted by uvacom

This might be a bit much to ask, but it would be really cool if you could post some sound examples (if possible, comparing to original). There just don't seem to be that many sound clips of WRHPs in the first place, and it would be cool to hear how close yours get.

Hearing the actual PUPs tone, gee what a concept. I agree with you
a few thousand percent. ;)

Seems to be little known/heard. I posted a few pages back with some WRHBs on a Youtube, well one example asking if anyone knew if the PUPs where MIM RI, CIJ RI, or less likely the real McCoy. No reply, nada ZIP!!!

Seems with all the folk yelling about wanting this 'Tone' some might actually have an idea about what is or isn't. That was enough for me to loose interest in an unknown outcome for such an expensive prospect of..... what exactly? Words? Sorry to point out the obvious and or be so cynical about the point. I gotta stop watching the news... ;(

[Frontier9]

Hey Telenator - great work so far! I really appreciate your dedication to this fascinating project. I want to ask a question and have hesitated because I wanted to ask it in the right way - I in no way want to insult your hard work. I understand that you are doing this mainly because you enjoy the challenge and at the same time you'd like to recoup your expenses and perhaps make a little something in the long run. What I am wondering is if you will be releasing your research to the general public (ie - number of winds, wire gauge, source of parts, etc...)? In other words, is this an "open-source" project?

[Telenator]

I am trying to get sound samples together as we speak. Hopefully, I will be recording some tomorrow but I do not have an original guitar in my possession to compare it with on the recording. I have been reluctant to produce a recording because of the way it translates differently to everyone's home computer and sound system. Besides, some people hear slagged that guy from Seymour Duncan pretty badly when he posted those clips of the new P-Rails pickups. I'm not sure I could be as eloquent about it as he was.

For what it's worth, I just returned from two music stores who have a 70's Tele Deluxe an a Tele Custom. I whipped out my Thinline at both places and we did comparisons. I can say in complete confidence that the only tonal difference between my modded pickup and the originals is the guitar bodies they were in. We have truly nailed the tone of the original and it actually gave me chills when I played the other two guitars side by side with mine. If you want to know what 70's WRHB sounds like, listen to the clips I post, (if I can raise the courage to do it), and you'll know exactly what one sounds like.

As for the specs, they are all listed in this thread as we have been developing the pickup. At one point I had even posted the mechanical drawing of my bobbin design but I pulled it down becasue I had to make a few slight dimensional changes for them to work properly. I haven't gotten around to posting the latest version.

Anyway, I expect a certain amount of scrutiny as this project nears completion and with the way interest has escalated. Fortunately, I'm not going into business as a pickup manufacturer so I probably won't be in a big rush to answer questions of an inflamatory or negative nature. This is a project that started with the best of intentions and quite honestly grew way beyond my expectations. I'll have a couple sets of these in my guitars when all is said and done and it's quite possible that the whole deal will die shortly after that. My pickup winder has made rumblings of carrying on from there but, well, that's his business. If there is any further development of a commercial nature, I'll consult with Paul here and take the proper route to inform everyone.

I'll see what I can do about sound clips tomorrow.

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by robt57

Hearing the actual PUPs tone, gee what a concept.

i think telenator has done a fair job explaining that he's been too busy to record clips and that he's reluctant to do it in the first place for a number of reasons; his concern was that people would criticize the clips because of his playing or the sound quality or whatever else, and it seems reasonable to me that he doesn't want to make himself or his playing abilities a target for criticism when he's only trying to let you hear how the pickups sound.

more importantly to me clips are simply not a great indicator of what a pickup will sound like when you have it working in your own guitar. i've tried to find clips of different guitars online and they nearly always sounds like just a standard generic electric guitar to me. it's not only hard to make distinctions between one pickup and another, entirely different guitars are often hard to tell apart.
i've read here that for all the upgrades you can make to your guitar you'll likely be the only person who can hear the improvements, while the people you're playing for probably won't notice one way or the other. there's something about actually having a guitar in your hands and knowing how it responds to your playing that allows you to pick up on the little distinctions that separate one instrument and the next, and you don't have that ability when listening to someone else play. it's still helpful to hear clips just to get the vaguest sense of how a pickup sounds, but that's the most you can hope to get from them.

i for one don't blame telenator for taking his time and am just grateful that he's decided to record clips for us at all. after so much curiosity over how his pickups sound even a mediocre quality clip would be exciting to me.

[Telenator]

jivetrain, thank you for understanding. Great post.

I am going to try to record a few clips today and if I'm pleased with the results I'll post them. My good buddy gibsonjunkie has offered to give me a hand and he's the guy with the recording gear and a place to host the sound clips. If it weren't for people like him and all the others who have contributed here, we wouldn't be listening to the "re-birth of the WRHB!"

Anyway, I will do my level best to work with gibsonjunkie in producing a worthwhile sound clip today. No promises, but I will try.

[ESQUIREoholic]

This continues to facinate me. The whole ordeal from concept to prototype to an actually pickup that he can share his findings with us.
Great job and if nothing else comes out of this but a little better understanding of what makes these little coils in our guitars tick well that's awesome in itself.
Sounds clips would be great no matter how they turn out.
This thread has been highly informative and extremely entertaining.

As for The sound of the originals check out any concert of Sheryl Crow and watch Peter Tork - he uses a natural Custom (neck pickup) one extensively.
Her other guitarist uses a black custom pretty often too.



Coldplay's guitarist Jonny Buckland uses the Thinline quite a bit.



amoung others.....

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by ESQUIREoholic

As for The sound of the originals check out any concert of Sheryl Crow and watch Peter Tork - he uses a natural Custom (neck pickup) one extensively.
Her other guitarist uses a black custom pretty often too.

This youtube clip looks like that natural finish Tele in action. He plays a lead starting around 4:05.

I could only see the bridge pickup partially in that clip, but it looked like either another WRHB or one of those a large bridgeplates made a humbucker. And I wonder from the tone if that isn't the bridge pickup being used there.

The neck is definitely a Tele headstock that would be correct for a Custom, rather than the large Strat headstock that would be correct for a Deluxe, though.

[Wardpike]

OK, I guess I'll have to be one of the odd men out here and just say that the 70s Fender Wide Range is to pickups like bell bottom plaid garbardine slacks are to jeans. Fashionable at the time! But in retrospect... perhaps not the greatest idea in the world.

I find the reissues actually sound much better than the originals. Oh how I struggled back in 78, 79, with the old thinline Tele, a Lab Series L5 amp, a Fender Showman amp, bassman, and various overdrives/distortions trying to get anything that resembled a useful tone.

But results vary, just like findings and opinions!!