Fender Wide Range Humbuckers

[yegbert]

What are the covers made of? Brass, or nickel silver? How thick? Plated with chrome, or nickel? How thick?

Do the answers vary for originals, reissues used on the MIA and MIM models, and the reissues used on MIJ and CIJ models?

What are the critical dimensions and methods for securing them to the pickup body? Are they interchangeable?

The idea to remove the hidden polepieces on the reissues got me thinking. Once upon a time, someone thought to remove (or leave off) the covers from other humbuckers, and discovered it opened up the sound and brought out more treble.

Someone could make replacements without covers, but fully compatible with a Fender or equivalent cover.

It might add clarity and treble.

Some folks would like their performance enough they wouldn't even bother trying to add covers. The idea might catch on as it did for some fans of Gibson style humbuckers.

It could avoid trademark violations for the pickup maker, and also keep costs down. If someone wanted a Fender cover they could deal with finding and paying for it as a separate concern.

[Telenator]

I'm not really interested in selling any. It's just a little project I'm working on because I dig doing projects.

[Telenator]

OK, I've been on and off the road a few times over the past few weeks and not around too much. I have procured enough magent rod to make a set of pickups. The future of this material is however sketchy at best. It really is a simple matter of mixing the proper ratio of sintered metals together and rolling it but doing a run as small as mine is not something anyone seems to be interested. I have talked to some sintered metals companies who would consider a $50,000 order but are otherwise not interested. I got mine made up through a friend in the business who had a heck of a time just getting this done. It's not difficult to do, it's just a matter of quantity.

There are a few other materials I'm checking out with very similar properties that should do the job, perhaps even better than cunife. I have a few requests out there for "engineering samples" and hope to get some of these materials soon.

Either way, we're looking at another month or so before I'll have any more progress to report. It's busy season at my job and it's difficult devoting too much time to this right now. Just wanted to give you guys a quick update.

[Wardpike]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I'm not really interested in selling any. It's just a little project I'm working on because I dig doing projects.

Can you post pictures of them, without the covers on them, and pictures of the covers also?

Many Thanks in advance, it's been years since I've had my hands on any.

Ward

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by Wardpike

Can you post pictures of them, without the covers on them, and pictures of the covers also?

Many Thanks in advance, it's been years since I've had my hands on any.

Ward

Sure thing Ward.

I'm going to buy a set of the MIM re-issue pickups and basically scrap the coils. I'm going to machine a new set of bobbins with threaded holes for the magnets and have them wound to spec. Then I'll bolt them onto the MIM bracket, solder the cover back on and hope for the best. Should be interesting.

[Newfie_J.]

I'm glad there is still interest in this thread. Best of luck to you.
For those of you interested in the reissue widerange mod, that is removing the hidden polepieces, I just did it and realy liked it and my Deluxe will be staying that way.
It didnt seem to remove output, bass, or treble, but it gave alot more clarity. Sounds nicer.

[Telenator]

Update. The scarcity of CuNiFe has forced me to look at other materials for this project. Alnico, Neodymium and Samarium Cobalt seem to be the most readily available materials in rod form for this application.

Seeing as how the original Wide Range Humbuckers are known for their somewhat dull sound requiring 1 meg pots, what would any of you suggest as a magnet material to bring out a bit more brightness in this pickup design?

[winny pooh]

Dang, for me, I would assume the dull sound is more to do with its high resistance and hence winding than the cunife, correct me if I'm wrong though. Most originals read at 10-11K.

[Telenator]

Yeah, they do read pretty hot. Magnet strength and type have a fair amount to do with with the tone as well though. Basically, we have a fairly hot wind that might sound great with the right magnets.

[spankdplank]

My two cents, the WR are wound hot, but the bobbins are much wider and flatter than a PAF style humbucker, which has a lot to do with their warmth and bass response. The pole piece magnets counter act this bassy tendency and provide a more articulate string response. My understanding is that Seth Lover would have used alnico V rods, but they are too brittle and they cannot be machined with threads, so he used cunife instead. I would think that if you have the bobbin shaped right and the coil wound to about 10.5, the cloest rod magnet to alnico V that you can get to take threading will get you where you want to be.

BTW--Telenator, thanks for this thread and all your efforts. As a long time WR user and fan, I really appreciate your efforts.

[Telenator]

Thanks spankdplank.

The magnets really don't need to be threaded. There's no reason why I couldn't simply take alnico V rod and press it in like a Strat or Tele pup. In fact, the WR bobbins appear to be pretty close to the same width as a Tele bridge pickup bobbin. The Tele bobbin is taller though.

I'm trying to find as many "off the shelf" or standardized sizes as possible for this project. Using unthreaded rod magnets isn't a real big deal because all you'd lose is the ability to adjust the height of the individual magnets. Strats and Teles have been getting along fine for several years without that feature!

I still have a few RFQ's out so the CuNiFe is not a total dead issue yet but, the more I research this, the more findings indicate that alnico V magnets would be a better choice anyway.

[spankdplank]

Rio Grande makes a humbucker to fit in a WR route, sort of like what you are describing, but without the chrome cover. It has 12 alnico rod pole pieces in two wider than PAF sized bobbins. They also make a bridge humbucker that is two tele bridge pickup bobbins mounted side by side, with the bass side slanted forward.

[Telenator]

Hmmmmmm, if I wasn't so into doing these crazy projects, I'd probably just buy a set of those Rio's! But I must have the Fender covers on mine!

[spankdplank]

Perhaps you could put the Fender WR covers on the Rio Grande and call it a day. It would look more like a WR than the Rio, and sound more like a WR than a WR re-issue. But, that would kill this thread.....

[quartermiler45]

How are the Rio's? Anyone ever threw a set in a '72?

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by spankdplank

Perhaps you could put the Fender WR covers on the Rio Grande and call it a day. It would look more like a WR than the Rio, and sound more like a WR than a WR re-issue. But, that would kill this thread.....

Well, I got busy yesterday and took some measurements. It seems the only way I'm going to be able to accomplish this task is by using alnico V magnets in my own custom machined bobbins.

As I said earlier, I'm happy to share information on this project so, here's the first drawing. Sorry for the poor quality of the image. It's readable but I don't know how to make a PDF file into a legible JPEG for posting.

This is not a final draft! I may change the mounting screws to a 2-56 thread and make them blind holes.



This drawing depicts the custom size bobbin I am going to have machined for these pickups. The magnet holes line up with the MIM covers and the finished height will fit under the cover.

I designed this as a two piece bobbin to be machined from a bondable plastic. After some experimenting with pole magnet lengths to get the optimum stagger, I'll post my results.

If all goes well I should have a working pickup in about 6 weeks!

I want to also give everyone who posted photos and e-mailed my with information on these pickups a HUGE THANKS!

You help was invaluable!

[Telenator]

OK, here's a few photos of the proto-type. I should have it installed tonight in the neck position.

[Telenator]

I just wired it up in the neck position of my Thinline and it sounds great. It reads 8.05k ohms but is considerably louder than the re-issue p'up in the bridge position because of the 12 alnico v magnets.

The sound is VERY Fender and sort of a cross between a humbucker and single sound. Like a fat single coil, but not quite P90 midrangey.

I won't know the real sound until I can jam with some people and crank it up. Right now, I'm very pleased. The sound is more complex than the MIM Re-issues and the balance is very sensitive to height settings. Raising and lowering the bass and treble sides of the pickup produce vastly different tones. I'm diggin' it!

The bridge p'up will be wound considerably hotter to fatten up the tone for that position. That's next week. Stay tuned!

[Graeme]

If it sounds half as good as it looks, it will be awesome! Fantastic work, Telenator :-)

[Telenator]

Thanks man. I can't wait to get this thing in a room full of players and unleash through my Rivera amp!

[jivetrain]

forgive me if i've missed some things, but you used 12 alnico magnets as polepieces rather than a single bar magnet, right? i'm betting that you'll get most of the benefits of the original WR design that way without even having used the cunife magnets. i'd be very interested in hearing what that sounds like, i'm sure everyone else wants to as well. how does it compare to the reissues as far as muddiness goes?

[tpaul]

wow - beautiful work. If you have time and the resources, I'd love to hear a sound file.

[Telenator]

I started with a MIM '72 Re-issue p'up and basically tossed the innards.

My new coil design is the same width as a single coil Tele bridge p'up but it's not as tall. When I put two of these coils side by side, the fit the cover perfectly.

The coils are wound with 42 awg "original, old stock wire" that is quite covetted these days, and there are 5000 winds on one bobbin and 5150 winds on the other.

The pickup reads 8.05k ohms but is considerably louder than the MIM which reads about 8.0k. But, how is that possible Bob? one might ask.

It's louder because the MIM p'up has it's magnet lying underneath the coils. Mine has 12 alnico V magnets (which I cleverly altered to look just like the screws on the original '72.) More magnet power and closer proximity to the strings makes a pickup louder even though it has the same DC resistance reading as another p'up that carries it's magnet below the coils.

If someone in the local area here can record me and post the clip, I will actually break my (no record policy) and play a few licks so you guys can hear this pickup.

This pickup is very sensitive to the way you angle it. Raise the bass side and it becomes very thick and smokey, but retains it's low end definition nicely. Not flabby sounding at all.

Raise the treble side and it becomes bright and glassy with smooth, piercing highs and well defined lows that have a great presence without getting boomy. Even though this is a humbucker, it reacts to height changes very much like a single coil.

So far I have only played it through my 77 SFDR clean. Today I'll plug it into the Rivera and maybe take it to the local Sam Ash to try the sound against a stock '72 Re-issue they have there.

My guitar is on the bright side to begin with so, I'm not sure it's the best test bed for this pickup. As things develop, I may have one or two p'ups around to send out for people to try so I can get their appraisal of the design.

In the long run, I am hoping to offer a "retro-fitting service" to people who have MIM Re-issue p'ups and want something better that still looks like the original Fender p'up and drops right into their guitar with no alterations. There are some very good alternatives to the WRHB's but they do not have the chrome Fender covers and many are not the same size as the originals.

With what I have invested in this, I don't expect to make any money on the project, just offer some players an alternative to what's out there in a more original looking package than what is currently available. It's just a hobby for me, and hey, if things go really well, I might eventually break even and get a free set of my own pickups out of the deal!

[teleman55]

God Bless Ya. Keep up the good work. Those old Fender HB's sound like nothing else on this planet. I fell in love with that sound the first time I heard it years ago.

[spankdplank]

FANTASTIC JOB TELENATOR!! Put me on the list for potential testors. It is my understanding that Seth Lover went with cunife rod magnets because alnico rod magnets were too brittle to take a thread. 1) how did you get the alnico slug to take a thread, or is it a smooth rod and you just slotted the top to look like it was threaded? 2) can you screw or move the rods up or down, or are they fixed in the bobbin? 3) why did you wind one coil more than the other and what benefit do you perceive from it?

[boris bubbanov]

Telenator, I think you (and the puppies) have the right idea.

If this recreation can be assembled and tested without a cover, you will know fairly soon whether or not you have struck gold or not. I suppose you could sacrifice a couple of MIM covers and open the cover up enough so it would not matter that they don't match, and solder those on there, but from what I know, and what I read, I don't think the covers will make that much difference, output and tone wise.

So, once you do nail this Seth Lover Wide Range, following it up with some custom covers should not be that big of an impediment. You will have so much momentum should you get that far, no worries!

Great Thread!

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by spankdplank

FANTASTIC JOB TELENATOR!! Put me on the list for potential testors. It is my understanding that Seth Lover went with cunife rod magnets because alnico rod magnets were too brittle to take a thread. 1) how did you get the alnico slug to take a thread, or is it a smooth rod and you just slotted the top to look like it was threaded? 2) can you screw or move the rods up or down, or are they fixed in the bobbin? 3) why did you wind one coil more than the other and what benefit do you perceive from it?

1) I put the alnico rod magnets in a drill press and while I had it spinning, I used a gringing stone on a Dremel tool to make the end rounded like a screw head. Then I cut the slot with a small cutting wheel with the Dremel.

2) The magnets are fixed. They're in there pretty snug, but can be moved in or out. I'm still perfecting the stagger.

3) The guy who is doing the winding makes excellent pickups and he says that winding both bobbins with exactly the same amount of wire makes them sound a bit bland. Putting a few more winds on one coil helps give a pick a more complex sound. All of the major pickup winders do this.

If Seth Lover were still designing pickups he could have his threaded alnico rods today. Sintered metals have come a long way and you can now mold magnetic materials to very intricate shapes. All it takes is $100,000 or so for a minimum order!

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Telenator, I think you (and the puppies) have the right idea.

If this recreation can be assembled and tested without a cover, you will know fairly soon whether or not you have struck gold or not. I suppose you could sacrifice a couple of MIM covers and open the cover up enough so it would not matter that they don't match, and solder those on there, but from what I know, and what I read, I don't think the covers will make that much difference, output and tone wise.

So, once you do nail this Seth Lover Wide Range, following it up with some custom covers should not be that big of an impediment. You will have so much momentum should you get that far, no worries!

Great Thread!

The idea here is to offer a "retro-fit" to people who would like a great sounding Wide Range Humbucker for their re-issue guitar, or for people who would like to restore a 70's guitar with a pickup that looks right, sounds good, and is a direct replacement in their guitar.

The only way I'll be able to produce these is if people send me their MIM re-issues. I'll retro fit their pickups with my innards and send it back to them, (with their old parts as well, of course)

Otherwise, I have an ititial outlay of the around $70 per MIM re-issue pu'p before I even get started. As it stands right now, the retro-fit will cost $200 to $250 per pickup because of the materials, custom machining, custom winding and assembly. It's all custom, hand made. So, I seriously doubt people will be lining up to get these. This proto-type does sound terrific though.

I was at a few music stores today and tried mine against their re-issues and mine smoked the ones in the stores! There's some interest already but I'm fairly certain the price will kill it before it goes anywhere. Anyway, I'm not really doing this to make it into a business. It's one of those things where someone said "it can't be done." Don't ever say that to me! It's like a red cape in front of a bull! How do you think I got started on my Rickenrockers!?

I'm doing some sound clips tomorrow and will post them. Bear in mind, the next generation of this pickup will have about 400 more winds on it to fill out the midrange. It sounds great the way it is but I want it to be a little more robust sounding.

[Telenator]

OK, I had the chance to play my pickup side by side with a real 70's Tele Deluxe today and I was actually shaking a little over it! The sound is so close, it's scarey! My pickup needs about 300 to 400 more winds on the coils to give it the extra midrange it needs and to help fill out the highs a little. On the lower 3 strings, you almost couldn't tell the difference!

I'm going to put off posting the sound clips today and wait until I have a new set of coils with the extra winds. The sound totally exceeded my expectations! This is very close now.

[jivetrain]

that's amazing news. i guess the unique design of the pickup itself really does have the bigger impact on the sound compared to the magnet material. if you don't mind, i wanted to ask you some more things about your pickup now that you're considering to offer it to us...

i've grown to love the sound of my reissue 72' neck pickup, but it's muddy bass has frustrated me so much. it's taken endless adjustment to control it and it's just acceptable now. i've wished i could get the same full and sweet sound without having to deal with the poor bass response. since you seem familiar with all incarnations of this pickup, how would you say your design compares to the reissues in this regard? or a better question would be do you think it'll deliver what i want, being a sweet, full and lush sounding pickup with a similar tonality to the RI when played clean but without the mud? maybe your sound clips will answer the question for me, so i'll check them out as soon as they're up...

the other question i had is whether you need the entire MIM pup sent to you, or just the cover. i'd be willing to try your design out but i'd like to keep the RI to fall back on if i could. sorry if i'm overloading you with questions, but this is an exciting idea to me.

[Telenator]

I played my pickup against 3 MIMs today and a real 1970 something Tele Deluxe.

As compared to the MIM Re-issue, my pickup totally delivers what you're asking for. It has a nice, tight low end that is full yet focused. Not flabby at all. The mids and highs are sweet but a bit more agressive than the MIM. But when you play it next to the MIM you hear just how much more complex the harmonics are and the smooth, biting clarity in the mids and highs. This new pickup makes the MIM Re-issue sound almost dead when you play them side by side. The new one is much more lively.

And yes, I would need the entire pickup for this retro-fit. My coils fit right onto the MIM bracket. Your coils would be safely removed and returned to you so you'll have them should you decide to reverse the process. But I seriously doubt you'd consider going back to the MIM spec once you hear this new one. I am using 500K pots in my testing.

I'll try to get some sound clips up next week after the new coils are done. The existing pickup sounds excellent but it will be closer to an actual '72 WRHB with the new wind and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by posting a clip that isn't as close to the original as it will be next week.

Even then, I'm leary because amps, mics, recodring techniques, and computer speakers all play a big role what a guitar sounds like. Alot of people make up their minds about pickups based on these sound clips and I just don't know what they sound like on someone elses computer. It could be horrible! LOL!

Anyway, I'm very excited about this! The sound has exceeded my expectations and I think people will agree when they hear this pickup that it's so much closer to the original in sound that it would make a viable choice for someone in search of that 70's WRHB sound in a pickup that looks identical to the original. We'll see what happens.

[jivetrain]

good news all around, then. i wouldn't worry about computer recordings putting people off much, i don't think anyone takes them too seriously. they're worthwhile just for getting a vague sense of what to expect, nothing more, i think most people understand that.

you don't have access to any 72 reissues with 500k pots, do you? because my deluxe has 500k volume pots and it would also completely blow the stock version away, so it's not a totally fair competition until you pair the RI pickups with 500k's. i still think your pickup must have the edge when it comes to bass regardless of pot values, because the RI is so weak in that regard, but the mids and treble are pretty formidable after the pot change.

if you wanted to i could record some samples of my deluxe to compare against your pickup when it's ready, just for the sake of hearing the what each pickup is capable of side by side. i'd have to record it in a manner as similar as possible to how you would be recording yours, and i also don't want everyone hearing how bad a guitarist i am, so it may not work out, but still worth a try.

one thing i'd be concerned about with your pickup is how strong the magnetic pull is on the strings. i don't feign to know much about pickups, but i'd do some testing to make sure your sustain and pitch are unaffected by the strong magnetic field. just trying to give you any feedback i can, this is the time that you probably need it most.

[RichardWitt]

Man, I'm interested!

I'm keen to hear the new wound version. But if it's as close as you say it is to the real deal, then this would be the cheaper alternative!

Well done Telenator!

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

good news all around, then. i wouldn't worry about computer recordings putting people off much, i don't think anyone takes them too seriously. they're worthwhile just for getting a vague sense of what to expect, nothing more, i think most people understand that.

you don't have access to any 72 reissues with 500k pots, do you? because my deluxe has 500k volume pots and it would also completely blow the stock version away, so it's not a totally fair competition until you pair the RI pickups with 500k's. i still think your pickup must have the edge when it comes to bass regardless of pot values, because the RI is so weak in that regard, but the mids and treble are pretty formidable after the pot change.

Well, when that guy posted a sound clip of the Seymour Duncan P-Rails pickups, there were a bunch of people here that really tore him a new one on his playing and and the sound of the pickup. I must confess to not having such a thick skin.

My Thinline Tele was indeed wired with 500K pots for the past couple months so I have a very good idea what the Re-issue pickups sound like with 500K's. I'm sure you could use my new pickup with 250K's without disatserous results but being humbuckers, and knowing that humbuckers typically use 500K pots, I'm moving in that direct for the best sound. Most people who move in this direction will be putting new pots in their guitars anyway so, this seems to be the way to go.

A far as magnet pull is concerned, I find that this pickup sounds very good set fairly low in the pickguard. It is also very sensitive to height changes and the angle (bass to treble) that you tilt it at. It also has considerably move volume than the stock MIM pickup.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by RichardWitt

Man, I'm interested!

I'm keen to hear the new wound version. But if it's as close as you say it is to the real deal, then this would be the cheaper alternative!

Well done Telenator!

Thanks man!

I'm not sure this will be much less expensive than buying an original though. The way it looks right now, I'd have to charge $200 to $250 to retro-fit YOUR pickup! That ain't cheap!

I'm not even sure I'm going to get involved in all that. It's just a cool project I've been working on for the past few months. Maybe I'll get the Rickenbacker guys all fired up again and build another 360 style guitar made to take these pickups! Sacralige! The horror! Quick, cover your eyes! Oh the humanity!

Ya know, now that I think about it, that combination would sound terrific!

[gibsonjunkie]

Well, I was there when he was A-B'ing it against an original pickup and it sounded really darn close to me - at a point where the actual differences in the guitars probably had as much to do with any differences in tone as the actual number of winds - it sounded really darn good to me!

I['m impressed!

[quartermiler45]

Like you said the price isn't cheap but its getting harder to find the originals on ebay. For me it would be worth to save for a few months to have this done to my pu's. I'm def interested!

[Zhangliqun]

This is sintered Alnico that you altered to look like screws? Hard to imagine cast Alnico taking to fancy machining.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by Zhangliqun

This is sintered Alnico that you altered to look like screws? Hard to imagine cast Alnico taking to fancy machining.

What I was saying is, if you make the magnet compound using a sintering process, you can mold the magnets with the threads and all! There would be no machining involved whatsoever. It would be like taking an original CuNiFe threaded magnet rod, making an exact mold of it, and then using the mold to form alnico v magnets that are threaded and exactly the same dimensions as the CuNiFe. I'm sure it can be done now with the advancements in sintered metals technology. It's just prohibitively expensive even with alnico v.

Do a search on sintered metals. There's a huge amount of information out there!

[eddiewagner]

Originally Posted by Telenator

Don't get me started! I'm really getting tired of traveling. I get off the plane and the client is there waiting and wanting to put every moment of my time to good use. I have been to some pretty exotic places and have almost no recollection of them because I was so busy working. I know that when people hear that someone is going to WORK in The Bahamas for 5 days they somehow don't hear the word "WORK" and simply think it's all fun and games. NOT! In fact, I have been traveling and working for so long now that, when I'm traveling for pleasure, I don't know what to do with myself! It's awful!

Thanks for the kind words on my published work.

that are all the reasons why i quit taking pictures on a pro basis last year. i sold all my gear and i do not miss it at all. i got me a small canon g9 camera and very slowly my interest in fotography comes back.