Fender Wide Range Humbuckers

[yegbert]

What are the covers made of? Brass, or nickel silver? How thick? Plated with chrome, or nickel? How thick?

Do the answers vary for originals, reissues used on the MIA and MIM models, and the reissues used on MIJ and CIJ models?

What are the critical dimensions and methods for securing them to the pickup body? Are they interchangeable?

The idea to remove the hidden polepieces on the reissues got me thinking. Once upon a time, someone thought to remove (or leave off) the covers from other humbuckers, and discovered it opened up the sound and brought out more treble.

Someone could make replacements without covers, but fully compatible with a Fender or equivalent cover.

It might add clarity and treble.

Some folks would like their performance enough they wouldn't even bother trying to add covers. The idea might catch on as it did for some fans of Gibson style humbuckers.

It could avoid trademark violations for the pickup maker, and also keep costs down. If someone wanted a Fender cover they could deal with finding and paying for it as a separate concern.

[Telenator]

I'm not really interested in selling any. It's just a little project I'm working on because I dig doing projects.

[Telenator]

OK, I've been on and off the road a few times over the past few weeks and not around too much. I have procured enough magent rod to make a set of pickups. The future of this material is however sketchy at best. It really is a simple matter of mixing the proper ratio of sintered metals together and rolling it but doing a run as small as mine is not something anyone seems to be interested. I have talked to some sintered metals companies who would consider a $50,000 order but are otherwise not interested. I got mine made up through a friend in the business who had a heck of a time just getting this done. It's not difficult to do, it's just a matter of quantity.

There are a few other materials I'm checking out with very similar properties that should do the job, perhaps even better than cunife. I have a few requests out there for "engineering samples" and hope to get some of these materials soon.

Either way, we're looking at another month or so before I'll have any more progress to report. It's busy season at my job and it's difficult devoting too much time to this right now. Just wanted to give you guys a quick update.

[Wardpike]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I'm not really interested in selling any. It's just a little project I'm working on because I dig doing projects.

Can you post pictures of them, without the covers on them, and pictures of the covers also?

Many Thanks in advance, it's been years since I've had my hands on any.

Ward

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by Wardpike

Can you post pictures of them, without the covers on them, and pictures of the covers also?

Many Thanks in advance, it's been years since I've had my hands on any.

Ward

Sure thing Ward.

I'm going to buy a set of the MIM re-issue pickups and basically scrap the coils. I'm going to machine a new set of bobbins with threaded holes for the magnets and have them wound to spec. Then I'll bolt them onto the MIM bracket, solder the cover back on and hope for the best. Should be interesting.

[Newfie_J.]

I'm glad there is still interest in this thread. Best of luck to you.
For those of you interested in the reissue widerange mod, that is removing the hidden polepieces, I just did it and realy liked it and my Deluxe will be staying that way.
It didnt seem to remove output, bass, or treble, but it gave alot more clarity. Sounds nicer.

[Telenator]

Update. The scarcity of CuNiFe has forced me to look at other materials for this project. Alnico, Neodymium and Samarium Cobalt seem to be the most readily available materials in rod form for this application.

Seeing as how the original Wide Range Humbuckers are known for their somewhat dull sound requiring 1 meg pots, what would any of you suggest as a magnet material to bring out a bit more brightness in this pickup design?

[winny pooh]

Dang, for me, I would assume the dull sound is more to do with its high resistance and hence winding than the cunife, correct me if I'm wrong though. Most originals read at 10-11K.

[Telenator]

Yeah, they do read pretty hot. Magnet strength and type have a fair amount to do with with the tone as well though. Basically, we have a fairly hot wind that might sound great with the right magnets.

[spankdplank]

My two cents, the WR are wound hot, but the bobbins are much wider and flatter than a PAF style humbucker, which has a lot to do with their warmth and bass response. The pole piece magnets counter act this bassy tendency and provide a more articulate string response. My understanding is that Seth Lover would have used alnico V rods, but they are too brittle and they cannot be machined with threads, so he used cunife instead. I would think that if you have the bobbin shaped right and the coil wound to about 10.5, the cloest rod magnet to alnico V that you can get to take threading will get you where you want to be.

BTW--Telenator, thanks for this thread and all your efforts. As a long time WR user and fan, I really appreciate your efforts.

[Telenator]

Thanks spankdplank.

The magnets really don't need to be threaded. There's no reason why I couldn't simply take alnico V rod and press it in like a Strat or Tele pup. In fact, the WR bobbins appear to be pretty close to the same width as a Tele bridge pickup bobbin. The Tele bobbin is taller though.

I'm trying to find as many "off the shelf" or standardized sizes as possible for this project. Using unthreaded rod magnets isn't a real big deal because all you'd lose is the ability to adjust the height of the individual magnets. Strats and Teles have been getting along fine for several years without that feature!

I still have a few RFQ's out so the CuNiFe is not a total dead issue yet but, the more I research this, the more findings indicate that alnico V magnets would be a better choice anyway.

[spankdplank]

Rio Grande makes a humbucker to fit in a WR route, sort of like what you are describing, but without the chrome cover. It has 12 alnico rod pole pieces in two wider than PAF sized bobbins. They also make a bridge humbucker that is two tele bridge pickup bobbins mounted side by side, with the bass side slanted forward.

[Telenator]

Hmmmmmm, if I wasn't so into doing these crazy projects, I'd probably just buy a set of those Rio's! But I must have the Fender covers on mine!

[spankdplank]

Perhaps you could put the Fender WR covers on the Rio Grande and call it a day. It would look more like a WR than the Rio, and sound more like a WR than a WR re-issue. But, that would kill this thread.....

[quartermiler45]

How are the Rio's? Anyone ever threw a set in a '72?

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by spankdplank

Perhaps you could put the Fender WR covers on the Rio Grande and call it a day. It would look more like a WR than the Rio, and sound more like a WR than a WR re-issue. But, that would kill this thread.....

Well, I got busy yesterday and took some measurements. It seems the only way I'm going to be able to accomplish this task is by using alnico V magnets in my own custom machined bobbins.

As I said earlier, I'm happy to share information on this project so, here's the first drawing. Sorry for the poor quality of the image. It's readable but I don't know how to make a PDF file into a legible JPEG for posting.

This is not a final draft! I may change the mounting screws to a 2-56 thread and make them blind holes.



This drawing depicts the custom size bobbin I am going to have machined for these pickups. The magnet holes line up with the MIM covers and the finished height will fit under the cover.

I designed this as a two piece bobbin to be machined from a bondable plastic. After some experimenting with pole magnet lengths to get the optimum stagger, I'll post my results.

If all goes well I should have a working pickup in about 6 weeks!

I want to also give everyone who posted photos and e-mailed my with information on these pickups a HUGE THANKS!

You help was invaluable!

[Telenator]

OK, here's a few photos of the proto-type. I should have it installed tonight in the neck position.

[Telenator]

I just wired it up in the neck position of my Thinline and it sounds great. It reads 8.05k ohms but is considerably louder than the re-issue p'up in the bridge position because of the 12 alnico v magnets.

The sound is VERY Fender and sort of a cross between a humbucker and single sound. Like a fat single coil, but not quite P90 midrangey.

I won't know the real sound until I can jam with some people and crank it up. Right now, I'm very pleased. The sound is more complex than the MIM Re-issues and the balance is very sensitive to height settings. Raising and lowering the bass and treble sides of the pickup produce vastly different tones. I'm diggin' it!

The bridge p'up will be wound considerably hotter to fatten up the tone for that position. That's next week. Stay tuned!

[Graeme]

If it sounds half as good as it looks, it will be awesome! Fantastic work, Telenator :-)

[Telenator]

Thanks man. I can't wait to get this thing in a room full of players and unleash through my Rivera amp!

[jivetrain]

forgive me if i've missed some things, but you used 12 alnico magnets as polepieces rather than a single bar magnet, right? i'm betting that you'll get most of the benefits of the original WR design that way without even having used the cunife magnets. i'd be very interested in hearing what that sounds like, i'm sure everyone else wants to as well. how does it compare to the reissues as far as muddiness goes?

[tpaul]

wow - beautiful work. If you have time and the resources, I'd love to hear a sound file.

[Telenator]

I started with a MIM '72 Re-issue p'up and basically tossed the innards.

My new coil design is the same width as a single coil Tele bridge p'up but it's not as tall. When I put two of these coils side by side, the fit the cover perfectly.

The coils are wound with 42 awg "original, old stock wire" that is quite covetted these days, and there are 5000 winds on one bobbin and 5150 winds on the other.

The pickup reads 8.05k ohms but is considerably louder than the MIM which reads about 8.0k. But, how is that possible Bob? one might ask.

It's louder because the MIM p'up has it's magnet lying underneath the coils. Mine has 12 alnico V magnets (which I cleverly altered to look just like the screws on the original '72.) More magnet power and closer proximity to the strings makes a pickup louder even though it has the same DC resistance reading as another p'up that carries it's magnet below the coils.

If someone in the local area here can record me and post the clip, I will actually break my (no record policy) and play a few licks so you guys can hear this pickup.

This pickup is very sensitive to the way you angle it. Raise the bass side and it becomes very thick and smokey, but retains it's low end definition nicely. Not flabby sounding at all.

Raise the treble side and it becomes bright and glassy with smooth, piercing highs and well defined lows that have a great presence without getting boomy. Even though this is a humbucker, it reacts to height changes very much like a single coil.

So far I have only played it through my 77 SFDR clean. Today I'll plug it into the Rivera and maybe take it to the local Sam Ash to try the sound against a stock '72 Re-issue they have there.

My guitar is on the bright side to begin with so, I'm not sure it's the best test bed for this pickup. As things develop, I may have one or two p'ups around to send out for people to try so I can get their appraisal of the design.

In the long run, I am hoping to offer a "retro-fitting service" to people who have MIM Re-issue p'ups and want something better that still looks like the original Fender p'up and drops right into their guitar with no alterations. There are some very good alternatives to the WRHB's but they do not have the chrome Fender covers and many are not the same size as the originals.

With what I have invested in this, I don't expect to make any money on the project, just offer some players an alternative to what's out there in a more original looking package than what is currently available. It's just a hobby for me, and hey, if things go really well, I might eventually break even and get a free set of my own pickups out of the deal!

[teleman55]

God Bless Ya. Keep up the good work. Those old Fender HB's sound like nothing else on this planet. I fell in love with that sound the first time I heard it years ago.

[spankdplank]

FANTASTIC JOB TELENATOR!! Put me on the list for potential testors. It is my understanding that Seth Lover went with cunife rod magnets because alnico rod magnets were too brittle to take a thread. 1) how did you get the alnico slug to take a thread, or is it a smooth rod and you just slotted the top to look like it was