Fender Wide Range Humbuckers

[ezrydr]

pole screw

[ezrydr]

bottom off

[ezrydr]

what is this plate? a spacer of some sort? it is ferrous


my best measurement shows approx .41 center to center pole spacing across the bobbin. The square holes in the bobbins are .165" square.

The center to center pole spacing between the bobbins
is .745"

[Scatterbrain]

Wow! A man willing to disassemble a $300 pickup in the name of science. Thanks for the great pics ezrydr!

[Telenator]

Awesome! Thank you so much for the photos and dimensions.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by ezrydr

pole screw

Those are the CuNiFe magnetic polepieces, right?

Are the female threads those screw into, integral to the bobbins? It looks that way. Are those bobbins plastic?

I find it a bit of a surprise the threads on the polepieces are metric, given the design was by Seth Lover, presumably in the US and around 1971. Wonder why Fender had them made metric instead of SAE, maybe the threading work was done offshore?

It's a bit difficult read for my old eyes, but there's a factory blueprint as well as a picture of the pickup with the cover off, on page 61 of Duchossoir's The Fender Telecaster. There's also some text describing its construction and the rationale for CuNiFe vs. AlNiCo on page 62.

I noticed the pickup in the Duchossoir book and one ezrydr pictured have white bobbins, but the one in the picture GUITARmole posted has black bobbins. The color shouldn't have any bearing on the performance of the pickup, just a bit of trivia.

[yegbert]

The narrative from Duchossoir's book on page 62:

THE 70s HUMBUCKING PICKUP

The pickup found on the Deluxe and the second generation of Thinline and Custom models was designed by former Gibson engineer Seth Lover. His Fender brainchild features two coils, each wound with 5000 turns of 42 gauge wire and a resistance of 5300 Ohms +/- 400 Ohms (i.e. a nominal resistance of 10.6k for both coils together).

Whilst adopting the humbucker mode for Fender, Seth Lover was keen to retain a brighter sound and a higher resonant peak frequency than a Gibson pickup. Besides, the magnets were also to serve as direct adjustable pole pieces (cf the 1953 single coil "Alnico" pickup he designed for Gibson). To this end, Seth used a special alloy made of Copper-Nickel-Ferrite (=Cunife), which was then the only magnetic material likely to be machined and threaded. Cunife magnets also contributed to providing a concentrated flux field and keeping the inductance to a lower level (hence more trebles) than Alnico V, all else being equal.

The 70s Fender humbucker is fitted with 12 threaded magnets but, once the metal cover is soldered, only 6 - split in two offset rows - are fully adjustable in height from the top. It remained in production between 1971 and early 1981 and disappeared from the catalogue with the discontinuation of the Deluxe and Custom models.

[Telenator]

Wow Yegbert, thanks for the info! I'll look that up right away. I should have most of this info over to my machinist buddy this week and get a quote on how much it will cost to make the parts. Ideally, he'll just say, "go ahead and make them yourself" and I'll use his milling machine to knock out 10 sets of everything but, we'll see. Fortunately, he plays guitar too so he might have a little more incentive to help.

Thank you! Everyone! for all your help and genrous offering of information!

[ezrydr]

yegbert - great info. While I don't know much about this topic it has certainly sparked my interest since I am lucky enough to have a couple of these pickups.

"Are the female threads those screw into, integral to the bobbins? It looks that way. Are those bobbins plastic?"

plastic for sure - possibly a nylon. They are threaded directly to accept the pole pieces.

"I find it a bit of a surprise the threads on the polepieces are metric"

me too! I thought they would be 1/4-20 or such. I am glad I had a thread gauge as I would never have guessed metric.

Do you think the thread pitch is critical to reproducing the pups?

I would sure like to find some nice shiny new covers for mine as the chrome has been corroded badly on my original covers.
(We do like SHINY NEW CHROME don't we Telenator )

I'd have mine replated but I'm worried that the FENDER engraving would be lost. Ideally I could find some new covers to put on the pups and put the originals aside for safe keeping.

Steve

[aunchaki]

Originally Posted by GUITARmole

The size of the bobbins, windings, construction, etc of the reissues and originals are completely different (see original on bottom, reissue on top w/ wax around it to fit in the larger cover)

This picture is telling. The reissues are just "regular" humbuckers under the larger "vintage" cover. Just looking at the original and reissue in this picture, I think "Gee, the reissue looks like they used Strat-sized bobbins and the original kinda looks like Tele bridge bobbins."

I know vintage Tele bridge pickups don't have plastic bobbins (they have fiberboard top and bottom pieces). Modern ones, however, DO have a one-piece plastic bobbin that looks eerily like the one above (even down to the square holes between poles). You could probably get a zillion Squier Affinity bridge pickups (I'd donate one) for testing purposes. Anyhow, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just telling what I thought when I saw that picture. Great thread!

[Telenator]

Well, so far it looks like the bobbins are very close in size and pole spacing to a regular Tele bridge pickup. The only exception being the Tele bobbin is taller. This is encouraging. Keep the info coming guys. We're getting closer.

[ezrydr]

"Also, I'm looking for any leads of info on the magnet material that sits on the baseplate of the pickup. The "mystery magnet" material."

"I am positive there wasn't anything magnetic between the bottom of the bobbin and the base plate."

is this the plate you guys are refering to?

[Telenator]

Yes, that's it. I have heard from my tech that it's actually phenolic that has been coated with something. Phenolic is a thermoset plastic often useed as an electrical insulator.

The material you have there looks like metal that has been gold irridated.

That piece is the one remaining mystery part in this project.

Anyone know what it is?

[ezrydr]

Telenator
this plate is definitley not phenolic, it is a solid metal plate. I put a magent to it and it is ferrous metal.
I did not try to see if the plate itself was magnetized but will do so.

Steve

[uvacom]

Wow...this is probably the most fruitful discussion of authentic WRH recreations on any forum ever! I really hope something comes out of this.

[Telenator]

There is another forum called "Offset Guitars" with some very knowledgable people who have a wealth of info on these WRHB.

Progess has slowed here because of job pressures. I have another assignment in the Bahamas next week and then I'll be in Myrtle Beach a couple weeks after that. I need a vacation!

[Newfie_J.]

I have been waiting for quite a while for someone with better resources and connections than myself to take this project on.

If we are lucky enough to simply find a way to convert a Mexican widerange to an origonal type widerange, somebody could make quite a bit of extra cash and help many tone chasers.
Sounds like it may be too good to be true but I'm hoping for ya.

It is only a matter of time before the aftermarket, or Fender itself meets the demand and does what Fender should have done when they reissued it.
Good Luck.

[braderrick]

Hey I recently bought a WRHB on ebay hoping it would be the same type of reissue from my '98 CIJ '72 thinline. When I got it though it had a black cable coming out of that was quite thinner than the grey lead out of the Japan pickups and had different screws as well as a badly scratched up cover. He then told me it came off an old strat he had bought that had been routed to accept these pickups. Anyone know how to tell apart the MIM, MIA, and MIA WRHB? It'd be cool if I got an original one for like $53.

[RichardWitt]

Count me in!!!
Very interested in cunife pole piece upgrades!

Glad to see that someone has enough gumption to come up with a solution to this long overdue problem.

[EunosFD]

Originally Posted by Telenator

There is another forum called "Offset Guitars" with some very knowledgable people who have a wealth of info on these WRHB.

Progess has slowed here because of job pressures. I have another assignment in the Bahamas next week and then I'll be in Myrtle Beach a couple weeks after that. I need a vacation!

It's not often you hear of someone needing a vacation after going to the Bahamas and Myrtle Beach.

Originally Posted by Newfie_J.

If we are lucky enough to simply find a way to convert a Mexican widerange to an origonal type widerange, somebody could make quite a bit of extra cash and help many tone chasers.
Sounds like it may be too good to be true but I'm hoping for ya.

I just happened across this thread over at the FDP forum which sorta kinda hits on what you're talking about:

http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.htm...-04-2006:28:38

That is the first I've read about anybody doing that. It's stil not a real WR pickup, but might be worth looking into further.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by ezrydr

Do you think the thread pitch is critical to reproducing the pups?

I would sure like to find some nice shiny new covers for mine as the chrome has been corroded badly on my original covers.
(We do like SHINY NEW CHROME don't we Telenator )

I'd have mine replated but I'm worried that the FENDER engraving would be lost. Ideally I could find some new covers to put on the pups and put the originals aside for safe keeping.

I'd be surprised if using the same thread pitch as the originals would be critical, however if you're going through the step of threading the polepieces it would make sense to thread them the same as the originals.

If you can determine that the holes for the polepieces are compatible, how about trying a cover made for one of the reissues?

[Newfie_J.]

Thanks EunosFD. I will try that next time I pull my Deluxe apart.
It sounds like a very unique experiment.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by EunosFD

It's not often you hear of someone needing a vacation after going to the Bahamas and Myrtle Beach.

I hear this all the time. I'm a photographer and believe me, these trips are no vacation. I've actually had 3 assistants quit because of the hours and grueling schedule while working in "paradise." When the client is paying over $1000 a day plus expenses, they totally expect you to get off the plane with the camera clicking and not put away until the flight attendant forces you into your seat and demands that you "turn off all electronic devices."

If I never had to go to these places and work again, you wouldn't hear me complain!

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by EunosFD

I just happened across this thread over at the FDP forum which sorta kinda hits on what you're talking about:

http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.htm...-04-2006:28:38

That is the first I've read about anybody doing that.

that may be interesting to try. does anyone know why it was suggested that he take the six hidden poles out? what does that accomplish?

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

that may be interesting to try. does anyone know why it was suggested that he take the six hidden poles out? what does that accomplish?

Well it would certainly reduce the pickup output and dramatically alter the magnetic field in the coils. But hey, if it sounds good....................

[uvacom]

I think the basic idea there is to lower the inductance in the pickup by reducing the amount of ferromagnetic material in the core and to make the string sensing area more narrow. Lowering the inductance increases the resonant peak, and narrowing the string sensing area reduces high frequency rolloff.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by uvacom

I think the basic idea there is to lower the inductance in the pickup by reducing the amount of ferromagnetic material in the core and to make the string sensing area more narrow. Lowering the inductance increases the resonant peak, and narrowing the string sensing area reduces high frequency rolloff.

Yeah. What he said.

[jivetrain]

thanks. if i get the nerve to try this i'll let you guys know how it worked

[winny pooh]

Great thread and project, have a set of originals that I am appreciating even more now!
That winding info is also invaluable, mine measure just over 11k, hot!
I thinks it's perfectly reasonable that fender were just lazy when they did the re-issues, if you look at the large amount off inaccurate specs in even more popular models done over the last 20 years its no surprise.

[spankdplank]

Telenator and Yegbert--regarding the cover hole size and thread issues, the cover holes on my original WR do not line up that well with the pole pieces and the pole pieces do not bite or thread through the cover, as the holes in the cover are bigger than the diameter of the pole pieces. All of the bite or threading of the pole pieces is in the plastic or vinyl material of the pickup bobbin, and none of the threading is with the cover or the base. Even though the re-issue bobbins are taller and narrower than the original bobbins, which are wider and very flat, the re-issue cover might be close enough to work with an original WR sized bobbin and magnets.

[Telenator]

I'm thinking that Tele bridge p'up bobbins might be just right for this. I will be using the MIM covers because they're readily available. It's really no big deal to drill and tap the bobbins for the right diameter and thread pitch to accomodate the magnets.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I'm thinking that Tele bridge p'up bobbins might be just right for this. I will be using the MIM covers because they're readily available. It's really no big deal to drill and tap the bobbins for the right diameter and thread pitch to accomodate the magnets.

Maybe, but then which Tele bridge pup bobbins?

Someone posted a while back here, that he removed the ceramic bar magnet(s) from a Squier Affinity pickup, removed the steel poles and then replaced them with AlNiCo slugs. He was able to do that relatively easily because those plastic bobbins have a plastic sleeve that surrounds the polepiece and is somewhat integral to the top and bottom flatware; unlike other Tele pickup construction methods in which the steel or AlNiCo polepiece may have no surrounding sleeve. (Look at the Tele bridge pickup parts from Stewmac as an example of a sleeveless design.)

The relevance of that mod to this thread, is that a bobbin with that sleeve type construction might be just the ticket for this project.

Other factors to consider:

The hole diameter in the bobbin/sleeve needs a small enough inside diameter (in addition to being thick enough) to be threadable to the target size CuNiFe polepiece.

Not all Tele bobbins are spaced the same. Maybe the same among all Tele bridge pickups in Fender designed Teles, but I've seen some with a narrower spacing.

[Telenator]

The bobbins are the least of my worries. I can machine a few of those to whatever size I need them to be. It's a matter of getting all the parts together and having them work with the MIM size cover. The last thing I want to have to do is start bending up sheet metal and getting it chromed for pickup covers.

[spankdplank]

I read somewhere that the wide/flat bobbin sensed more string area and the flatter bobbin height contributed more bass, which combined with the greater string articulation, brightness and single-coil ish sound of having the polepieces be the magnets, rather than a bar magnet. Perhaps that's why they called them "wide range". In any event, along with the CuNiFe magnets, I think having the very short or flat bobbin will be critical to getting the WR sound, and using a bobbin as tall as a tele bridge may affect the sound. Assuming the above is correct, it makes sense, as to my ear my old WR pickup has a great, clear, articulate string response and is sparkley when turned up, yet it has a very deep bass and very pronounced midrange.

[Telenator]

Yeah, the Tele bobbins are taller. It's going to take a little time but I now have enough info to get started. First step will be to buy a few MIM humbuckers and cannibalize them for their covers and mounting brackets. Then use all the information so many folks here have kindly offered and start putting some of these together.

If I could just stop traveling long enough to get a few consecutive weeks at home, I could get busy with all of this!

[ezrydr]

"I have another assignment in the Bahamas next week and then I'll be in Myrtle Beach a couple weeks after that. I need a vacation!"

OMG - are you freakin kiddin me?

remember, I know what you do for a livin'....

but seriously, when its for work I know how it can take the polish off of those kinds of places.

hang in there man! I love your work!


Steve

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by ezrydr

"I have another assignment in the Bahamas next week and then I'll be in Myrtle Beach a couple weeks after that. I need a vacation!"

OMG - are you freakin kiddin me?

remember, I know what you do for a livin'....

but seriously, when its for work I know how it can take the polish off of those kinds of places.

hang in there man! I love your work!


Steve

Don't get me started! I'm really getting tired of traveling. I get off the plane and the client is there waiting and wanting to put every moment of my time to good use. I have been to some pretty exotic places and have almost no recollection of them because I was so busy working. I know that when people hear that someone is going to WORK in The Bahamas for 5 days they somehow don't hear the word "WORK" and simply think it's all fun and games. NOT! In fact, I have been traveling and working for so long now that, when I'm traveling for pleasure, I don't know what to do with myself! It's awful!

Thanks for the kind words on my published work.

[jivetrain]

just for your guys' information i did the polepiece removal mod and it works like a charm. i made another thread about it so that this one wouldn't get too distracted

[ezrydr]

warning - off topic

"I have been traveling and working for so long now that, when I'm traveling for pleasure, I don't know what to do with myself! It's awful!"

I can relate. I used to have travel extensively for my job. It was before 9/11 so at least the airport stuff wasn't as much of a hassle but I hated it none the less. Once at the destination there was usually no time for fun. Every once in awhile I'd get a chance to sneak off and relax.

I got so burned out on the whole traveling thing that when I'd have a vacation I was very content just spending it at home with my hobbies.

Thankfully I don't have to put up with it anymore. However to this day I still prefer my vacations right here at home.

Ok back to pickups....

Can't wait to hear what comes next Telenator!

(BTW - I just got my new white pearl pickguard blank and I'm fixin' to cut my first pickguard so I can put my original WRHBs back in the guitar- see here http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...-thinline.html)

Steve

[Telenator]

Thanks for the info jivetrain. I'll have to try that out.

Right on ezrydr. I like staying home now too. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt!

I'll be gone tomorrow through Tuesday so there won't be much to report here until I get back and buy a few MIM pickups to work with.