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Old January 13th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Why Is This Happening?

Please help:

I've sprayed three bodies and two necks before. So these two will be my third and fourth necks. Every time I spray nitro I this happens. I don't know if this is called fish eye or what but it's driving me crazy. These tiny dimples where the finish doesn't want to go. I wipe each piece with naptha to remove any oily residue from skin contact and let it evaporate. I'm using Sherwin Willliams LOVOC lacquer and K27 thinner retarder. I run a little lacquer thinner through the gun after each use. I'm using an oil free compressor. I have a seperator and a disposable water filter in line just prior to the gun. It isn't humid in my shop. Temperature is about 50 degrees farenheit.

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Old January 13th, 2014, 10:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The lacquer in the pics is still wet. Maybe a minute after spraying. Two passes. It's thinned about 50/50.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Sure looks like fisheyes.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes , you have some kind of contamination going on there , with your prep with the neck I would suspect either the gun or compressor
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Couple of potential problems; Make sure there is absolutely NO silicone anywhere near where you build, prep for paint, or apply finishes. It can get onto finishes from such stealthy ways as power tool top anti-rust preservatives, tool lubricants, etc. etc. etc.

I'm told that just about a microscopic particle of it will cause fish eyeing. I have also heard that stearated sandpapers can cause fish eyeing as well. Stearates are basically a soap lubricant that makes the sandpaper run smoother, and last longer. It's not as pernicious as silicone, but might be worth checking, or even buying sandpaper that is labeled "not-stearated".
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Old January 14th, 2014, 07:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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What kind of pressure were you spraying at? That can also happen as a result of too much air pressure.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 08:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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50 seems a bit cold for spraying. I've always shot around 65 to 70. At 50, I'm guessing it won't flow as well as at higher temps.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The first time I painted my motorcycle, I got that same type of "Fisheye". My problem ended up being contamenants from my compressor. Either oil or water.

I bought a Good Filter that went inbetween my compressor & gun and this solved my problems. Maybe the same type of thing is happening to you.

They do look Great other than that.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
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50 seems a bit cold for spraying. I've always shot around 65 to 70. At 50, I'm guessing it won't flow as well as at higher temps.
I agree totally. I never sprayed a guitar but I've done a few cars and bikes and we always liked to see 70f as a temperature for spraying. Most finishes are designed to flow properly and adhere at right around 70f.
A water seperator/filter is a must and some even use a second smaller seperator and filter right at the gun. I had one boss that used to run a garden hose over his compressor tank to keep it cool and reduce water. He also used to spray a final thinned coat to level things out.
There are also smoothing additives one can add to the product. Fish eye remover and things of that nature that can help in certain situations.
I don't even use my preferred wipe on finish under 70f.
I did my time in a couple body shops at nights after leaving my regular job after work not to mention supervising a large shop with a bodyshop person and a painter's helper and a dozen or more other tradespeople.
Spray painting is not as simple as some would have us believe.
Tip size, air pressure, spray gun pattern adjustments.
Heck I know one lad that couldn't paint sober. But he did great work. He worked for me in the daytime and I worked for him at night.
Just to show how each different product requires a different approach:
http://www.autorefinishdevilbiss.com...gun-setup.aspx
And fish eye remover:
http://www.columbiaindustrialsupplie...h-eye-remover/
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Old January 14th, 2014, 10:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I was spraying about 35 psi at the gun. I warmed the gun, the cup, the lacquer and thinner, and the necks prior to taking them to my garage. The compressor was at ambient temp though. I've read several threads from guys who spray at temps lower than 70, just add a bit more thinner to make sure it flows well. The other reason I don't think it's temperature is because I had the same problem this summer.

The theory that seems most probable is the sandpaper with stearates. I've never heard this before, and I do have some crappy Harbor F sandpaper I've been trying to use up. I filled the grain on the skunk stripe and sanded back with some of that paper. Not sure if I've used it on all of my builds but it is possible.

My shop is my half of my two car garage. I do have some car products with silicone in the garage, but I'm very careful not to contaminate my work.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I also am worried about the hose I'm using. I bought it just before I started spraying lacquer and I guess it could have some oil or something inside. Is it a good idea to flush it with naptha or something?

So the obvious next question is: what should I do now? I really don't want to trash these necks. The flamey one is an aftermarket neck I received as a gift.

After sitting overnight, the finish sunk a little and the spots aren't so dramatic. Sorry I didn't take pics before coming to work.

Thanks all for your comments!
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Old January 14th, 2014, 10:37 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trippercaster View Post
I was spraying about 35 psi at the gun. I warmed the gun, the cup, the lacquer and thinner, and the necks prior to taking them to my garage. The compressor was at ambient temp though. I've read several threads from guys who spray at temps lower than 70, just add a bit more thinner to make sure it flows well. The other reason I don't think it's temperature is because I had the same problem this summer.

The theory that seems most probable is the sandpaper with stearates. I've never heard this before, and I do have some crappy Harbor F sandpaper I've been trying to use up. I filled the grain on the skunk stripe and sanded back with some of that paper. Not sure if I've used it on all of my builds but it is possible.

My shop is my half of my two car garage. I do have some car products with silicone in the garage, but I'm very careful not to contaminate my work.
I've sprayed lacquer numerous times at 50 degrees with no problems , not that it isn't possible , as with all finishing YMMV . Could be stearates , at this point its hard to say , might be a good idea to take some scrap and experiment a little , maybe you could find the cause through process of elimination . I've never flushed out air lines , but I do filter at the compressor and desiccant filter at gun . I would strip the necks down and respray but I would definitely find out what is causing the problem first .
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:22 AM   #13 (permalink)
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After 35 years of spraying in the great white north I can tell you that temp has nothing to do with fisheyes and there are no real issues spraying when it's below 50 degrees F.

Yes, that's snow in the background and yes that's taken a minute after I sprayed that guitar, right where it's hanging - temp is below the freezing point - added benefit is that you'll never have blushing at those temps...

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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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After 35 years of spraying in the great white north I can tell you that temp has nothing to do with fisheyes and there are no real issues spraying when it's below 50 degrees F.

Yes, that's snow in the background and yes that's taken a minute after I sprayed that guitar, right where it's hanging - temp is below the freezing point - added benefit is that you'll never have blushing at those temps...

Good to know. I guess I've been way too conservative. Down here in North Carolina, we only get a few weeks a year where it's below freezing during the day.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:31 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I've sprayed lacquer numerous times at 50 degrees with no problems , not that it isn't possible , as with all finishing YMMV . Could be stearates , at this point its hard to say , might be a good idea to take some scrap and experiment a little , maybe you could find the cause through process of elimination . I've never flushed out air lines , but I do filter at the compressor and desiccant filter at gun . I would strip the necks down and respray but I would definitely find out what is causing the problem first .
So if I strip the necks with thinner, do you think that will remove the contaminate? Naptha sure didn't touch it, so will thinner?
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:52 AM   #16 (permalink)
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So if I strip the necks with thinner, do you think that will remove the contaminate? Naptha sure didn't touch it, so will thinner?
I would sure think a good scrubbing with lacquer thinner would remove any contaminant , but like I said I would look to test scrap first , just to eliminate the gun and the compressor from the equation , just wipe down some scrap with thinner or naptha and spray as you would the necks , that ought to tell where you need to be looking , find the source of the problem and fix that , then fix the neck .
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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So if I strip the necks with thinner, do you think that will remove the contaminate? Naptha sure didn't touch it, so will thinner?
You can almost always strip (yes to thinner or even better paint stripper) to remove the contaminates and re-spray from scratch but as the other guys have mentioned, you need to find the source of your contaminate.

Don't forget to use fisheye remover when you re-spray, just to be sure.

Not so long ago I had an issue where my wife handled a guitar before I sprayed it, first coat and there were fisheyes - turns out my wife had hand cream on and that was the issue - fisheyes are a bugger so it's important to find the source and eliminate it.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
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FWIW, Stew-Mac's advise it to wipe new wood with 3 different cleans rags dampened in 1) naphtha to remove waxes, 2) mineral spirits to remove silicone 3) ammonia and water (1/4 cup ammonia (household) - qt warm water to remove any remaining mineral spirits and silicone left on surface. They recommend a 5 step for refinished wood... Water to stop the stripper, lacquer thinner to remove finish residue, alcohol, mineral spirits, ammonia/water.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 12:15 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So if I strip the necks with thinner, do you think that will remove the contaminate? Naptha sure didn't touch it, so will thinner?
If you are getting oil and/or water from your compressor, then the contamination is occurring while you are spraying, so Naphtha may have cleaned the neck perfectly, and the contamination happened after. I've had good luck with naphtha as a cleaner, but lacquer thinner should take care of whatever is on there.

You haven't mentioned whether you have an in-line filter after the compressor to filter oil and water. My guess is your problem will disappear after you install one. If I were betting, I would put my money on oil contamination from the compressor as the cause of your woes.

As to temperature, I do almost all of my finishing in the winter here. High humidity in the summer makes blushing a constant problem. My experience with low temperature is that the relative humidity is lower also, and Lacquer levels and flows much better in colder temperatures. I've sprayed lacquer many times when it is 35 F outside and high 40's low 50's in my garage. I've found that I don't need retarder when it is cold, only when it is hot and blushing is a problem. When it is cold, I just thin the lacquer a little, but not nearly as much as when it is hot. YMMV. Good luck!
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
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If you are getting oil and/or water from your compressor, then the contamination is occurring while you are spraying, so Naphtha may have cleaned the neck perfectly, and the contamination happened after. I've had good luck with naphtha as a cleaner, but lacquer thinner should take care of whatever is on there.

You haven't mentioned whether you have an in-line filter after the compressor to filter oil and water. My guess is your problem will disappear after you install one. If I were betting, I would put my money on oil contamination from the compressor as the cause of your woes.

As to temperature, I do almost all of my finishing in the winter here. High humidity in the summer makes blushing a constant problem. My experience with low temperature is that the relative humidity is lower also, and Lacquer levels and flows much better in colder temperatures. I've sprayed lacquer many times when it is 35 F outside and high 40's low 50's in my garage. I've found that I don't need retarder when it is cold, only when it is hot and blushing is a problem. When it is cold, I just thin the lacquer a little, but not nearly as much as when it is hot. YMMV. Good luck!
I do have a seperator followed by a disposable filter just prior to the gun. I don't see the seperator accumulating anything but I'm not sure if it would be visible.
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