laminated/plywood neck

[music321]

it seems that some companies use lam. necks on cheaper guitars. it seems like this might be an attractive option for a high-end guitar as well.

in theory, i can see all of the binding adhesive robbing tone, but people seem to think that they sound fine. I'm interested in the idea for strength.

has anyone used laminate for a neck?

i've looked everywhere for high-quality mahogany plywood, but only ever find thin sheets. anyone know where to get sheets/billets/neck blanks of high quality laminated mahogany?

anything else to add to this discussion? am I missing anything?

-thanks.

[PinewoodRo]

I don't profess to be an expert but there have been many high-end guitars and basses with laminate necks over the years. I'm sure I've seen 5 and 7 peice necks from makers like Hagstrom and Overwater. My friend Neil has one made by Maniac. I'm sure its possible to make the laminate yourself. There's a chapter in Melvyn Hiscock's book 'Make Your Own Electric Guitar' that goes through the process. Might even be a thread here where someone has done it?
I guess it depends on what counts as laminate...

[music321]

i guess i'm talking about something akin to marine grade plywood. zillions of sheets about 1 mm thick adding up to 2 inches or so...

[PinewoodRo]

I've never seen one made of plywood, sounds interesting!
I think maybe laminate has a more general meaning over here, sorry.

[4telecaster4]

Martin has there low end acoustics made with a laminate neck

[EricS76]

I got one of these a few years ago to take out on the road:
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MAT-DC1E-LIST
Martin calls it Stratabond. This model has been discontinued. I love the guitar. Sounds very similiar to my D-28. I suspect the neck will be stronger because it is laminated. You just have to get past the way it looks...

[banjohabit]

the layers of most tree's growth are, essentially, laminate. they could never withstand their own weight, frozen precipitation, and wind pressure if they grew any other way. they would be grass.

i think guitar manufacturers would explore more laminate (and carbon fiber, plastic, etc.) if they thought they could sell it abundantly. but guitar players are adverse to someone asking them : "so, that's a plywood guitar, eh ?", hence an uncertain market for makers. over time, i think attitudes will change, IF the sound quality is there. as in gun making, if the makers can show the newly adopted usage of the materials as a positive (such as the stability of laminate gun stocks), the market will actually put a premium on that product, so the maker can offer that option for a higher price.

sounds like a tall order for guitar makers, but it may happen.

[EricS76]

A tree's rings all run the same direction. Most laminate layers do not run the same direction, and are glued and pressed together which makes it more durable and less sensitive to humidity and change in temperature than a solid piece of wood.

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by EricS76

A tree's rings all run the same direction. Most laminate layers do not run the same direction, and are glued and pressed together which makes it more durable and less sensitive to humidity and change in temperature than a solid piece of wood.

+1

Plywood is a lamination of alternating grain directions (90:90) and is made that way to be structurally stable - makes it remain flat and not cup.

Laminated necks like the Martin below are made with the grain all running in the same direction. As wood is basically a lamination of winter (hard) and summer (soft) [in non-tropical trees] cellulose stuck with lignin, a bunch of wood glued under pressure with tiny amounts of glue will be almost identical to 1-piece wood except more stable. Picture the neck below as 1/4 sawn Zebrano and you'll get what I mean.

It won't be cheaper to manufacture, as material costs are only a small part of a guitar's price and lamination is labour-intensive (as is the cutting/grading of the veneers).

[Jack FFR1846]

My son has a Martin LXM. Most of the guitar is made from composite material and the neck is laminated. I think that people's panties are all in a bunch from using the word plywood. It conjurs up images of crap wood glued together with tons of knots and voids. Seeing my son's Martin neck (and other lower end full sized Martins), I don't think that this is the same thing. It is a laminate. Sort of like high end, archetectural, structural wood used in high end buildings, churches and the like. I am sure that they have figured out a process where it is far cheaper than solid wood necks, or why would they be doing this on the lowest end of guitars.

Although my son's guitar is low end for Martin, it's still a very nice sounding and playing one.

[EricS76]

When I was researching before buying the DC-1E, I believe I read in some of Martin's literature that it was $400 cheaper to use the laminate neck than a solid wood neck. At the time I bought mine, they had the same model with a solid wook neck and one with a laminate neck. I went with the laminante. Honestly, there is just the slightest difference between the feel of it and the neck on my D-28. I did hit it with a little fine steel wool to get it smoother. It's a great sounding guitar. Their literature said the laminate neck would be more resistant to warping and temperature changes.

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by EricS76

When I was researching before buying the DC-1E, I believe I read in some of Martin's literature that it was $400 cheaper to use the laminate neck than a solid wood neck.

A high-grade mahogany neck blank would cost them less than $20.

I suspect the real savings comes from buying the laminate from another country pre-made, ready for the CNC. I'd be surprised if they were sliced and glued up with American labour.

[banjohabit]

i think i'll build me a tele out of micro-lam (structural laminate). i often find pieces of it already near the right size laying around construction sites. if i can make the sides look like those high-end gun stocks i would finish it clear.

[hemingway]

Good-quality laminate makes sense - it's the same principle as hardwood flooring. You can use solid oak, but it will change shape hugely with the weather. Good quality plywood flooring with a top layer of oak will hold its shape much better as temperature changes.

[Arbiter]

Originally Posted by music321

i guess i'm talking about something akin to marine grade plywood. zillions of sheets about 1 mm thick adding up to 2 inches or so...

Kubicki bass necks - the "other headless" from the 80s and 90s - are done this way. I never could get a good sound out of one but plenty of folks managed to.

[Elias Graves]

If you like stiff necks, laminate is your friend.
I made a three piece walnut/rosewood neck for a tele. Amazingly stiff. That guitar sustains forever.

[bigeyedfish]

I'm having a hard time with the thought of plywood being able to sustain well. I understand laminations of high quality woods, but I haven't seen plywood that was free of cracks, separations, voids, etc. Maybe I've just never seen high quality plywood before. That's not unlikely.

[fretbuzzard]

Originally Posted by bigeyedfish

I'm having a hard time with the thought of plywood being able to sustain well. I understand laminations of high quality woods, but I haven't seen plywood that was free of cracks, separations, voids, etc. Maybe I've just never seen high quality plywood before. That's not unlikely.

The body of the guitar in your avatar is made of plywood: laminated maple.

[bigeyedfish]

I thought about that as I was posting, but I don't think that really changes my idea on the issue. I wouldn't say a 335 "sustains forever".

[Nick JD]

Just to get the terminology correct here - using the word "Plywood" when talking about Laminated Veneer Lumber is incorrect and misleading. No guitars use plywood in structural areas.

Have a read of the types of engineered woods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_wood