Shellac under Lacquer or just Lacquer (Ash)

[wetdog]

I am beginning to finish my Warmoth body and neck.

I have an ash telecaster body and a maple neck. Currently, I have a can of zissner shellac, a can of behlen instrument lacquer, timbermate ebony grain filler, tru-oil, assorted sand paper, and transtint dyes (honey amber and reddish brown).
I plan on grain filling the body, then dying, and then applying multiple coats of lacquer till my rattle can runs out. I realized I might not need the shellac which I had purchased to use as a sanding sealer base coat. Finishing the neck seems straightforward; apply stain to desired color then multiple coats of tru-oil along with sanding with steel wool.

My questions:

• Should I use the shellac as a base coat under the lacquer, and if so before or after grain filling?
• Will one can of behlen lacquer be enough for one electric guitar body?

Thanks for any responses, I am looking forward to sharing pictures of my first partscaster build!

[somemadhope]

Shellac is a decent sealer under lacquer.

Dying wood is not for the faint of heart. If you don't like it or the wood does not absorb evenly... you can't start over. Many prefer to tint lacquer and apply after the wood is sealed.

If you have some scraps to experiment on first.... I suggest dying the wood, sanding it smooth again, then grainfill, then seal with shellac. Sand smooth and lacquer over it.

I would strongly recommend 2 cans of lacquer if you want to wet sand and buff out to a high gloss finish.

[Record83]

There will be many opinions on this one and I am a newbie too, but I have been experimenting with this stuff and doing research for years. My 2 cents:

My suggestion is to use the shellac as a barrier coat. I would actually apply the shellac first as a washcoat and apply filler on top of that (however, I know some prefer to apply filler right to the raw wood). Putting filler on top of washcoat gives it something to cling to, so it won't pull out as easily and also so you don't discolor the wood.

After your filler dries (and possible dry sand filler off of surface and level if needed) I would shoot shellac again (probably 2 coats, maybe 3-4 for a rattle can) and sand that level. THEN shoot your lacquer coats.

Behlen lacquer is awesome (IMO), even out of the rattle can. However, have at least 2 cans! You'll be surprised how quickly you go through a can. Plus, I am sure you've read all the Stew-Mac stuff and threads on this forum so you know a trick is to warm the lacquer and to switch cans when one gets cold and looses power. But no joke, I would have at least 4 (maybe 6!!!) rattle cans of clear handy to switch between while spraying and to get a bunch of coats built so you have a deep, wet, glossy look to it. BUT technically you could do it with 1 can and I know the Behlen stuff is about $12-$17 a can and $$$ will add up quickly.

Also keep in mind that "sand & sealers" are sometimes misleading. You can use lacquer right onto the raw wood. It will act as a base coat. It is just more difficult to sand. Most people in the guitar finishing world don't do that though. Shellac also is good enough for a finish...it is marketed as a sand & sealer by Zinsser when Shellac lost it's popularity and people were going with poly finishing for furniture.

Also, do you have rattle can Shellac or the liquid quart can? If you have just the shellac liquid you can thin it with denatured alcohol to control thickness of the coat.

OK....those are my thoughts....many experienced finishers will chime in soon....

[Davecam48]

I had shellac under acrylic on my build guitar and it all just peeled off, but we'd had rain a few days over the time that I sprayed it! I'd say shellac used as a grain fill then sanded back to bare wood just leaving the filled grai should be ok
Be careful !

[somemadhope]

I admit I find grain filling ash tedious and often brush on 3-4 coats of shellac while sanding after the 2nd and 4th coat with 320 grit to level. It sands so well after only a few hours and fills the pores well enough to give me a smooth flat surface.

[wetdog]

Thanks for the input!
This is how I will proceed, but I'm still not sure if shellac is the best choice as a sanding sealer/ washcoat:

Shellac washcoat -> Timbermate filler -> sand back to 220-320 and repeat.

After 2-3 applications of washcoat and filler, I can begin applying lacquer coats. I was going to stain the body, but I guess staining can be uneven and unpredictable. I will be buying another can of amber lacquer and another clear for my desired color which is sorta translucent vintage blonde butterscotch amber. I would like a satin non glossy finish in the end.

[SixShooter]

If you are going to use dye that needs to be put on the raw wood. That's your first step. Then seal, grain fill, seal, clear.

[wetdog]

I had sanded the shellac a bit before filling and ended up with some smudges on the ash which got sanded down to wood through the shellac. I had read shellac can get "bugary" when sanding which is what occurred when I sanded back before applying the filler. Is this common for shellac to clump up on sandpaper? It seems like sanding shellac and filler would make a mess of my sandpaper which is why I sanded the shellac down a bit before filling. Should I just keep sanding the Ash and do a second grain filler layer?
I assume I will finish sanding the first application of grain filler to clean it up, and then fill again before moving onto a few light coats of shellac and to then the Behlens aeresol lacquer. I now have 3 cans of clear and on can of starcast amber for my desired vintage amber butterscotch color.

[flyingbanana]

What kind of shellac did you use? A lot of them contain wax which could be problematic and react with the lacquer.

[wetdog]

I used zissner aerosol shellac which is de-waxed. As time allows over then next few evenings, I will be sanding down this tiime experimenting with wet sand paper 220/320/600.

I hope to reduce any smudges, but I am unsure whether to seal with shellac again before applying my second coat of grain filler. I don't want the shellac to clump up on the sand paper with the grain filler dust.

[somemadhope]

Originally Posted by wetdog

I used zissner aerosol shellac which is de-waxed. As time allows over then next few evenings, I will be sanding down this tiime experimenting with wet sand paper 220/320/600.

I hope to reduce any smudges, but I am unsure whether to seal with shellac again before applying my second coat of grain filler. I don't want the shellac to clump up on the sand paper with the grain filler dust.

Zinnser aerosol is good stuff. The 600 grit wet is probably overkill, since you will be lacquering over it anyway. I would use 220 to level then hit it good with the 320 to get it smooth for the lacquer.

Also, if the grain filler is smudging when sanding, is it possible its still too soft? It should be gritty or a fine powder when sanding.

[flyingbanana]

Zinsser is good. Not pointing fingers here, but you must be doing something wrong to be having any issues with that stuff. On the other hand, I don't use the spray version of it. I use the kind in the pint can and use a foam applicator brush to apply. When Seal Coat dries, it dries very hard and is actually hard to sand...never had it ball up or go soft on me.

[KP Will]

Originally Posted by flyingbanana

Zinsser is good. Not pointing fingers here, but you must be doing something wrong to be having any issues with that stuff. On the other hand, I don't use the spray version of it. I use the kind in the pint can and use a foam applicator brush to apply. When Seal Coat dries, it dries very hard and is actually hard to sand...never had it ball up or go soft on me.

Absolutely. I have one guitar done in Seal Coat alone. It definitely dries hard.

[wetdog]

I had finished grain filling and applied a few coats of shellac as a sealer. When I finished prepping to a smooth surface, I sprayed on a coat of starcast amber which ran badly and was also too dark. The color is more of a brown. Now, in the pics, I have sanded back the amber color and plan on applying a reranch butterscotch which seems like more of the color I wanted. I will be sure to use a test piece this time. Also, I hope the one can butterscotch is enough to cover up any mistakes I made.
The good news is, I lightly dyed my maple neck with a preval and transtint and have been applying tru-oil with outstanding results.

[wetdog]

Update. I sealed and filled my ash body and used a whole can of Reranch butterscotch. Then I applied about 10 coats of clear spray can lacquer both Behlens and Reranch. I have used 3 cans of clear so far. Is this when I wait and buff sand after three weeks of curing, or do I continue applying clear until all the grain seems filled?
I have been learning to apply wet coats and had a few runs which I sanded off with 600. I am looking forward to the final sanding after the body cures, but I just don't know when to stop applying clear. I am going for a thinner 'vintage' finish in the end.

Cheers
Andy

[Shepherd]

Looks like you didnt fill the grain before you started spraying. It's going to take a whole lot of clear and sanding to fill that now. Unless you want the grain to show you have to sand that flat, apply more clear and repeat till it's level. Might be easier to give it a skim coat of 2 part epoxy followed by a few more coats of clear.

[wetdog]

Agreed. This is my first try at finishing a guitar, and although I did three coats of Timbermate grain filler, I think I sanded back too much after the third filling and removed some of the filler. Since I haven't been sanding between coats of clear, I will try sanding back with ~400 to remove some of the texture and apply more clear. I have never used 2 part epoxy but will search for that info too.

[Bulldog87]

Originally Posted by wetdog

Agreed. This is my first try at finishing a guitar, and although I did three coats of Timbermate grain filler, I think I sanded back too much after the third filling and removed some of the filler. Since I haven't been sanding between coats of clear, I will try sanding back with ~400 to remove some of the texture and apply more clear. I have never used 2 part epoxy but will search for that info too.

Dont stress too much about the grain. The first time I did a body that required grain filling I did the exact same thing with the Timbermate! Timbermate is good stuff but I found it was hard to know how much sanding was required! The guitar came out great and just has a little extra texture to it! I love playing it anyway!

Good luck and keep posting pictures!

[Jimmy C]

Hey Wetdog, how'd that Tele turn out? Unfilled pores notwithstanding, I think those pictures show a beautiful guitar. I'm finishing one a lot like that--thinned amber dye, Timbermate, shellac. Looks good. I'm debating whether to put something tougher over the shellac. I have a can of Reranch clear, but I hate spraying lacquer. Got some water-based Endurovar poly, but I'd hate a plastic look more than breathing lacquer. Anyway, how bout a couple pics of your finished product? I bet it's great!