Hide or Tite-bond Glue for seam/top?

[Flynman]

Maple top and Alder body: What is the prefered glue for Joining the 2 pieces and glueing the top to the body? I have always used tite-bond but am curious if there are any advantages to Hide glue that you mix and heat up in a glue pot?


thanks,
Keith R

[Flynman]

Crickets.....

[Blacque Jacque]

Originally Posted by Flynman

Crickets.....

I'm afraid I can't speak from direct experience, but a well respected local luthier once said "They only used hide glue in the past because it was the best they had. If they would have had access to modern adhesives, they would surely have used them."

He makes beautiful instruments, both electric and acoustic & his sound fine & don't fall apart.

[Flynman]

Thanks Blacque.. you make a good point...Old school doesn't always equal better!

[Blacque Jacque]

I can understand using hide glue if you want to be "period correct", but modern glues are often easier to use & availability is much better. I doubt you'll find hide glue in many modern bodies.

Of course, there may be some attribute of hide glue that makes it particularly desirable. Flexibility maybe, impervious to moisture ?

Someone of greater knowledge will no doubt be along to enlighten us.

[Bud Veazey]

IMHO the only reason to use hide glue would be that you might want to take the joint apart someday. Otherwise, Titebond.

[coolpool]

Even Titebond can be re-worked if need be. It just requires longer and judicious application of heat and wet; ie steam longer. Above posters are right, if you are trying for period correct or just want to build your skill sets, run hide glue. I'm in the process of learning to build acoustics from scratch and the books I'm referencing recommend Aliphatic Glue (Titebond) for building.

[Flynman]

I haven't had any problems with the Titebond...So if it ain't broke!!

[Colt W. Knight]

Titebond or Elmers yellow wood glue.

[bluebilly]

TightBond 100%.

[Nick JD]

Keep the vegetarian guitarists happy; use titebond.

[Shepherd]

Talk about beating a dead horse .

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by Shepherd

Talk about beating a dead horse .

I use gelatine (basically hide glue) as a beer fining agent (drops the yeast out of suspension and makes the beer clear and bright for kegging) and I made the unfortunate mistake of looking up how (non halal, non kosher) gelatine is made.

You don't wanna know.

Eaten a bag of soft candy lately?

[Silverface]

"They only used hide glue in the past because it was the best they had. If they would have had access to modern adhesives, they would surely have used them."

Sorry, but that is an apparently inexperienced or uneducated opinion. The "well respected local luthier" apparently does not understand the physical and chemical properties of adhesives. If he simply downloaded Titebond's product guide he might learn the differences - and specifically the difference between aliphatic (Titebond) and hide glue.

Martin STILL uses hide glue for some applications; in the 60's they started to switch to PVA (white, aka "Elmer's") glue when they moved the plant as the environmental conditions were not conducive to hide glue - but it quickly became a problem (especially creeping) and they switched back to hide. Later they tried aliphatic (yellow, i.e. "Titebond"), had problems with creeping and switched back to hide again for many applications (i.e. tops/backs to sides). For many years they did not use hide glue on neck joints (PVA instead) as their "dovetail" provided enough strength that a few gaps here and there were not a problem. But they (as far as I'm aware) never used aliphatics in the neck joint, at least for any length of time, as it causes extreme problems with neck resets.

I use both. They each have their place. IF you have a joint that you will NEVER take apart AND it need to be slightly flexible AND bridge a gap then Titebond is great. It's also great for regluing small parts or chips, wen you don't want to cook up a batch of hide glue (bottled hide glue, BTW is worthless).

But hide glue dries MUCH harder, does not "creep" (it stays where you put it and also does not shrink away from edges) and creates a far stronger bond. It also has superior shear strength (forces pulling sideways instead of directly away from each other) and a much longer "working time" (the time before it starts getting too sticky to properly fit parts together. Two halves of a guitar top will never be taken apart - but they DO experience very strong shear forces and need to fit VERY tightly. This is where you need the thinner, stronger bond of hide glue.

Same with set-neck joints. Titebond works great, and you can watch a zillion youtube videos of guys happily spreading titebond in a neck joint, clamping the parts together, and voila! Done!

Until you or a future owner need a neck reset, and the luthier/repairman pulls a fret, drills a hole, inserts a needle to inject hot steam - and nothing happens. With a hide glue joint than neck WILL NOT MOVE until you WANT it to. But with Titebond (which is waterproof) in there (probably filling sloppily-fitted gaps between the neck and neck block) the steam does nothing but dampen the wood - and if the repairman tries to force the joint apart at that point he's going to tear the crap out of the block or tenon.

But hide glue, which is moisture sensitive, breaks down when exposed to steam and even tight-fitting parts can be dismantled without damage. Maybe that "well respected local luthier" is basically an electric guitar tech who has never done a neck reset in his life. Not his fault - there are thousands of "techs" like him who have never actually built AND dismantled a set-neck instrument, or dealt with any other issue where hide glue is essential.

Same properties exist with glued-on headstocks. Although Gibson is famous for headstock breaks, they don't happen at joints attached with hide glue (or any glue) - they happen at the nut, a weak point in the design - not the "construtcion".

You do not want a gap between halves of a guitar top, so assuming the halves are properly planed and dead flat, you'd want to use hide glue for sure. However, if there is any doubt about how straight the joint is (and we're talking about tolerances in the hundredth of an inch) then Titebond aliphatic may be a better choice.

And the same would go for a neck/body joint. If it's well-"machined" and tight fitting, hide glue would be far superior, both in strength and for future maintenance. It's amazing how strong Gibson neck joints are with just a simple solid-wood rectangle glued into a matching slot - no dovetail, no box-joint cutouts, no bolts. But if it's sloppy and all the sides do not fit precisely, Titebond will bridge gaps and hold it together. But it'll be a real pain in the backside for some future repairperson.

Note - "Titebond" is a brand name - they make many kinds of products, some of them "glues" - but there is a huge difference, for example, between "Titebond" and "Titebond II" (aliphatic vs modified polyvinyl acrylic). "Elmer's" is also a brand name, and "Elmer's Glue" could mean any of several products. "Elmer's" and "Titebond" are NOT interchangeable (the popular "Elmer's Glue" those of us in our 50's and 60's grew up with is now usually called "School Glue" - a cheap, low-strength PVA glue), and what is now "regular" Elmer's glue ("Glue All") is more similar to Titebond II, although in a weaker form. "Gorilla" is another brand name - Gorilla comes in several types, but the most prevalent is a moisture cured urethane - a totally different chemistry than "Titebond" and even more problematic when used in instrument construction or repair. "Gorilla Glue" (the original brown stuff") cures with water - but is also waterproof, and steam injection won't touch it.

So - in instrument construction, for tight-fitting permanent joints (and joints that may need dismantling in the future) in wood, hide glue is preferable. For less critical joints Titebond can work fine. And for joining plastic/shell/bone and wood parts - that's an entirely different discussion!

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by Silverface

(bottled hide glue, BTW is worthless).

You might find this interesting. Worthless is probably a word best left to that inexperienced luthier you are ripping a new one for.

http://cool.conservation-us.org/cool...AG_90_buck.pdf

[otterhound]

Titebond releases at 160-165 degrees but must be completely removed in order to re-glue properly .
Hot hide glue does not fill gaps if present .
Hot hide glue dries hard and does not tend to creep . Titebond does not dry hard like hide glue .
Both work well when used correctly .
Many claim that hot hide glue adds to the sound of acoustic instruments .

[flyingbanana]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

I use gelatine (basically hide glue) as a beer fining agent (drops the yeast out of suspension and makes the beer clear and bright for kegging) and I made the unfortunate mistake of looking up how (non halal, non kosher) gelatine is made.

You don't wanna know.

Eaten a bag of soft candy lately?

Mmmmm taffy....

[Blacque Jacque]

Originally Posted by Silverface

For less critical joints Titebond can work fine.

You mean like joining a 2 piece blank & cap ?

[Silverface]

Nick - I admit "worthless" was an exaggeration. But there is quite a difference between the two.

I'm well aware of the study you posted a link to. It addresses the property of shear strength at different humidity levels between hot hide glue and liquid hide glue. You can see in Table III at lower humidity levels the hot version far outperforms liquid.

But it's really irrelevant, as that test does not delve into ASTM test methods for creep and certainly does not address dismantling of glued surfaces in the future, where liquid hide glue is a bit more problematic. It has to be, as in order to maintain shelf life (keep it liquid in the bottle) additives are used that are not moisture-sensitive; others are used to increase flow. Those additives add to the very thin film thickness of the glue - premixed "liquid" ("cold") hide glue inherently has a higher film thickness that you cannot make "go away", and as the vehicle evaporates the film shrinks - leaving microscopic gaps. Hot hide glue, of course, also has an evaporative vehicle, but the lower film thickness and higher rate of penetration into the substrate makes those gaps exponentially *smaller* to the point of irrelevancy.

The other problem with liquid hide glue is shelf life, and it's the biggest source of failure complaints. Most users would not think to look at the "expiration date" on a bottle of glue - but it's there, and it's important. I'll admit I keep some around for repairs where I need the open time but am not worried about hardness or dismantling in the future - as an example, I have a bottle of Titebond's liquid hide glue - expiration date 2/3/2013. Printed in black on a dark brown bottle. Not one of those things most people see unless they are looking for it.

OTOH, Titebond and Titebond II don't have an expiration date (although I mark all PVA's, urethanes and aliphatics and toss 'em after a year - or as soon get thick and harder to work with, whichever comes first.).

But that's just a habit from working in the coatings/adhesives industry for 35 years.

And Jacque - No, I would not use liquid hide glue there. I'd want hot hide glue to get the tightest, hardest possible joint between those parts, and liquid hide glue, although better than Titebond in this case, isn't better than hot hide glue. I am not saying Titebond or liquid hide glue won't work - just that hot hide glue would be a better choice IMO.

Also Jacque, to answer a couple of your questions - Hide glue IS moisture sensitive, one thing that makes it a good choice for things like neck joints. But you wouldn't want to use it outside on patio furniture! Hot hide glue does dry much harder than aliphatics, pva's or urethanes; as far as manufacturers go, Martin uses it on some custom shop models (and they glued tops and backs to sides with it until at last the mid-70's); Santa Cruz uses it in some cases; many boutique builders use it, Rick Turner being one of the most outspoken in favor of it (the reason usually given for NOT using it is that it's a hassle, not that it lacks performance; Turner believes the hassle is overstated). And I've found it interesting that the Epi "Masterbilt" guitars are made with hot hide glue!

But other than the need to heat a pot of material and keep it at a constant temperature, the other hassle with hot hide glue is that parts must be cut to tighter tolerances. It's not very forgiving. Under load it does not move, and if it's in an ill-fitting joint it will crack. OTOH, aliphatics, PVA's and urethanes fill badly-tooled joints - but under load will creep (flex)and find a new position to stay in, or allow the joint to flex. That's not usually desirable, but when production number reach hundreds (or thousands) of instruments a week concessions are inevitably made in the quality of workmanship, and more forgiving adhesives make up for small variances in parts dimensions. For a while.

[otterhound]

The other real world difference with hot hide glue is working time . You need to work quickly with HHG . Much quicker than Titebond .