Silver Fox finish, how do they do it?

[WonderCouncil]

I know it's not a Telecaster, it's not even a Fender but I've always loved the Epiphone Silver Fox finish.


Not my photo but an excellent picture of the finish. I'll take it down if the person wants me to.

Anyways, I'm in the middle of a project and can't decide on a finish for it so I figured I'd like to give the Silver Fox scheme a try. Only problem though I have no idea where to start.

I've heard white grain filler was used but have no idea if this is correct. Was the green finish a stain or a tinted a clear? Any input would be amazing. I really want to give this a shot.

[Shepherd]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...31&FORM=IDFRIR

" translucent green finish with silver pore filler " on mahogany.

[WonderCouncil]

Thanks for the info.. I thought I had read something like that years ago when I was looking at trying the finish.

Silver grain/pore filler doesn't look easy to come by. It looks like something called silver gilt cream and be used in the same manner though.

It's not a mahogany body but the gain looks similar in places. I think either way it would look at least somewhat close to the original finish, if not just unique in it's own right.

Matching the green is going to be a tough one I think as well. I'll more then likely just go with a dark green stain.

You would want to put the green base down first, then the silver gilt/filler and lastly a clear, right?

Any other tips/info is always appreciated :)

[jaxcat]

put the green down then a sealer coat then the filler. If you try filler over the stain you may have an issue with the green color lifting and bleeding into the filler. Atleast i had that problem when I tried to get this finish, I didn't seal in between and ended up with a dark toned filler by the time I was done.

[Racer5]

Whoa, I have never seen this finish before. I would kill for a flying V in this color.

[jaxcat]

I emailed Collings guitars about the finish and here is what they said," We simply sprayed gold lacquer toner over our standard doghair finish (black stain with white pore fill)" so I asked and they did seal in between dye and filler. Here is a better picture. I am not sure where you buy gold toner but I am pretty sure if you mixed and amber and/or yellow combo you would get close to this.

[WonderCouncil]

Thanks for all the help and tips everyone. Great info all around. I had forgotten Collings did a finish like this.

I'm going to experiment with an ebenonizing solution tomorrow I think. If that doesn't work well then I'll go with an ebony stain. Would something like Minwax ebony oil stain or the onyx water based stain suit the project?

White grain filler should be easier to find then silver. Any ideas how to go about the trans-green layer? Would a green stain work, if the grain filler was stain able?

I unfortunately I don't have access to a any kind of air bruising tools to spray a green tinted clear. I'm trying to stick to a hardware store approach. I don't expect it to be identical to the Silver Fox finish but i think I can get decently close.

Another way I've seen a similar finish done was with say a black stain with paint applied over top and either wiping it off before it fully dries or letting it dry and sanding it down; then cleared. A thought occurred I could use this method and use a dark green (olive color) over the black, sanded down. Somewhat of a mock Silver Fox.

So as far as order goes, would the following work? Bare wood -> ebony stain -> standing sealer ->white grain filler ->green stain? ->standing sealer ->gloss clear.

[Keyser Soze]

Green stain following filler is going to stain the filler (assuming it is not stain resistant.)

If that is the effect you want then go for it.

Otherwise you would want to follow the filler with a clear sealer, then use a green toner, followed by clear topcoat.

Are you using mahogany? If so then a properly made ebonizing solution will turn it black. But making a strong ebonizing solution takes a few days.

The real benefit of ebonizing, as opposed to ebony dye, in this application is that the ebonizing effect penetrates much deeper than the dye, and you are highly unlikely to sand through and expose raw wood when levelling the grain filler.

[jaxcat]

I would really try to use a white or slightly stained green filler then use a tinted top coat. You can see on both of these finishes the tinted top coat adds a bit to the base color of the guitar. I am not sure where you are located and what your access to these are http://www.preval.com/ but the preval sprayers work pretty darn good for a one off sprayed finish.

[WonderCouncil]

Yea, I didn't really think about it but stained filler vs. a tinted clear over white would create a noticeable difference. I think it's the depth you get from a trans green over the white and black that gives it a nice effect.

The wood I'm using it actually Agathis, a Squier Bronco to be precise. From what I understand Agathis is quite similar to Mahogany, at least in terms of grain. It's a 4 or 5 piece body but I figured with the black base coat everything will match match up. The wood is already matched pretty well IMO.

The ebonizing solution I'm making it just the basic steelwool and vinegar. I may try wiping the body down first in a tea solution if the initial mixture doesn't come out dark enough. That's supposed to help add tannin to the wood I believe.

Thanks for the link to the Preval sprayer. I've been reading up on it and watching videos. Looks very promising. I'll have to see if any of the hardware stores stock them.

I know absolutely nothing about tinting clear coats or sealers. So please bear with me, the most I've done in the past are rattle can refinishes and stripping and sealing. I've never ventured into grain fillers and tints. Will a water-based clear work? What sort of dye should I be looking at for the clear? Could I use say, ReRanch nitro tinted to green, then plain old nitro clear over that? Maybe I should stay away from nitro all together? hah.

I do want to say though you've all been a huge help. It's a little overwhelming just because I'm learning all the do's and dont's still. But the encouragement is very helpful.

Here's the body I'm using.


And here's the thread on the project itself, with more pictures.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bass-plac...i-project.html

[Elias Graves]

Ebonizing works on very few woods; namely walnut and oak. You'll probably need a tinted base coat or stain.
The basic process of that type finish is: base coat, sealer, grain fill, clear. The colors are up to you, but just about any contrasting pair of colors will work.
Trying to duplicate an aged finish is tough. Most of the silver fox pics I've seen make me wonder if that green was there when it was new. I kinda suspect that has to do with aging and dye fading/chemical interactions kinda like goldtops turning green.
My suggestion would be to find your own technique that you can do with what you have. Trying to duplicate old stuff is hard to do.

EG

[WonderCouncil]

Thanks for the input Elias. As well as everyone else that's chimed in. I have ultimately decided not duplicate the Silver Fox finish but just do a "dog hair" finish in general.

I had the exact same thoughts about the green tint the original Epiphones have. I've heard of a Red Fox finish as well which leads me to believe they did put some kind of tint coat down; as to the actual shade used versus what they look like today I'm not sure how that compares. I'm assuming nitro wasn't used on these, does anyone know for sure? More just curious then anything else. I have some of the Minwax aerosol nitro I plan on using on mine. I like the idea of the yellowing affecting the base and grain colors.

Here are a few pictures to give an idea of where I'm at and where it's heading.

One coat of ebonizer on bare Agathis.

This is after 2 coats of the ebonizer.

I actually quite liked the color but didn't really like the Mary Kay-esque grain look. So I decided to try coating the body in strong tea. That's supposed to up the tannin count, giving a darker finish.

After letting 5 light brush coatings of tea dry I reapplied the ebonizing solution and got a pretty cool looking gray/blueish color.


I let that dry for a few days while I tried to decide how to proceed with it. I was tempted to just get some ebony stain but being ever thrifty (I.E. can't leave well enough alone) I found some left over RIT dye powder. Giving the body a light brushing with hot water I poured the powder directly onto the wood and rubbed it in with a damp cloth. Premixing the power into water didn't seem to have much affect where as rubbing it in gave a much more solid color to it.

It still has a bit of a blue hue to it but I'm kind of digging it. If anything I'm thinking the yellowing of the top coat and fading of the RIT finish may give off a greener look over time.


It still need another coating of RIT around the edges though. Any idea how long I should let the wood dry before putting on a sealer? That's my main concern right now. I picked up some Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac in a rattle can. I can't track down any vinyl sealer in aerosol form around here, just large gallons of it. The Zinsser should work though I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong though. Will the shellac cause any problem if I clear coat with Minwax nitro?

As for the grain fill, I can't find any but have seen similar finishes done with acrylic paint, specifically Dupli-Color. I'm trying to find the site/thread I saw where someone had used silver Dupli-Color to color the grain. I'm leaning more toward using gold myself though. Out of curiosity does anyone know how gold-ish silver would turn under an aged nitro?

Any tips on applying the paint to the grain and cleaning if off the surface would be greatly appreciated. Would something like denatured alcohol work to wipe off the excess paint while it's still tacky? Would it mess with the shellac sealer?

I know the way I'm going about this is far from professional/correct but I really am working on a budget and would prefer not to have to order stuff. In short I'm working with what I have laying around and what I can pickup on the cheap from the hardware store. Ultimately if the finish looks bad I have a back up plan in mind.

And if anyone is curious enough there are many more pictures in the album.
http://photobucket.com/broncoVIconversion

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, strong ebonizing solutions often yield a bluish or purple tint, on top of the heavy black coloration. This is somewhat diminished with the addition of a topcoat.

Another option at this point would be to seal the wood with a thin coat of shellac or lacquer, then apply a pigment type stain. The pigment particles will settle out in the pores of the wood (you get the strongest results by using the sludge from the bottom of an unmixed can of stain.) If you want a metallic then you could try a pigment paint, or mix up your own using mica flake and an evaporative solvent.

If the stain does not have any binders you would need to spray a sealer over that, otherwise you risk wiping it up with anything brushed on.

I use this technique (ebonizing and dark cherry stain) on oak to get a sort of faux rosewood effect.