Just another grain fill thread

[Colt W. Knight]

I didn't want to hijack Otter's thread, so I though I would just post some pics of how I grain fill.

These are some older pictures before I really got the "hang" of it, but they illustrate the concept well in my opinion.

This is the procedure I follow now because it yields the best results for me.

1. Sanding Sealer - I spray brushing sanding sealer because its thicker, and cheap. Allow it dry, sand flat with 220.
2. Sanding sealer, allow to dry, buff with steel wool.
3. Thin grain filler to consistency of snot, and massage into wood.
4. When it starts getting pasty feeling, I squeegee excess away. You can actually reuse this stuff if you don't get it dirty.
5. Allow to dry long enough to develop a film, or as Otterhound put it, a hazy appearence. I think hazy is a better term than film, so I am going to start using that now.
6. When the haze appears, I buff with a shop towel or burlap. And I let that dry for an hour or so.
7. Then I spray another coat of sealer, allow to dry, lightly sand with 220.
8. Another coat of sealer, allow to dry, buff with 000 steel wool. Most woods I only need to apply grain filler once since I have adopted the system of using more sanding sealer, but I have done it up to three times.

Any way pictures.





7.

[Colt W. Knight]

Here is some massaged grain filler.

Here is my scraping mechanism

Here is the "haziness" or "film" I was refering too.

[Colt W. Knight]

Then some more sealer.


I don't have any finished pictures, sorry guys. I dropped the damn thing and had to strip it and make some repairs. I haven't refinished it yet. But it was dead flat and pretty before I dropped it. It landed on the vice, bounced off the corner of the table, smashed into my scroll saw on its decent, and landed on concrete with a bunch of scrap metal pieces laying around. The neighbor actually came to check on me when he hear the curse words echoing through the holler.

[otterhound]

Let's say that you are filling a Strat body . What method would you use for the areas that have compound angles or contours and shapes that are not flat ?

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by otterhound

Let's say that you are filling a Strat body . What method would you use for the areas that have compound angles or contours and shapes that are not flat ?

Same way, just have to use a shorter squegee or a floppy squegee. You'd have to just take several passes instead of one quick scraping mechanism. No big deal, I am just removing excess filler. I have wiped it off with a gloved hand before when I accidentally glued my scraper to the table.

[Colt W. Knight]

I should add, that when I use the scraper/squeegee, I am not digging in and making sure I get everything. If you scrape too hard, you will just drag the filler out of the pores. This is why I don't like sanding grain filler. I just want to get rid of excess filler so the remaining filler can dry, and I can buff it flat.

[flatfive]

Thanks a lot for the pictures and detailed description, Colt.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by flatfive

Thanks a lot for the pictures and detailed description, Colt.

Hey, I am paying for the extra bandwidth on photobucket, I might as well use it, right?

[bottled]

Cheers for this description and pictorial guide.

[garymaddox]

Colt, nice thread. You have mentioned before in other threads, but which grain filler do you prefer?

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by garymaddox

Colt, nice thread. You have mentioned before in other threads, but which grain filler do you prefer?

I haven't tried a lot of paste-type grain fillers, but I have been getting good results with Behlens Por O Pac. I have some old cans of Behlens, and I think they were made before the buy out. I have heard bad stuff about the new stuff.

Oh, I forgot to mention. My favorite grain filler is actually Birchwood Casey Sealer/Filler. It is really cheap and pops the grain. The only draw back it it is a little messy and requires two or three applications. However, you don't need any sanding sealer before application.

[singlecoil]

Thank you Colt, some good info here.

[SixShooter]

Originally Posted by Colt W. Knight

This is the procedure I follow now because it yields the best results for me.

1. Sanding Sealer - I spray brushing sanding sealer because its thicker, and cheap. Allow it dry, sand flat with 220.
2. Sanding sealer, allow to dry, buff with steel wool.
3. Thin grain filler to consistency of snot, and massage into wood.
4. When it starts getting pasty feeling, I squeegee excess away. You can actually reuse this stuff if you don't get it dirty.
5. Allow to dry long enough to develop a film, or as Otterhound put it, a hazy appearence. I think hazy is a better term than film, so I am going to start using that now.
6. When the haze appears, I buff with a shop towel or burlap. And I let that dry for an hour or so.
7. Then I spray another coat of sealer, allow to dry, lightly sand with 220.
8. Another coat of sealer, allow to dry, buff with 000 steel wool. Most woods I only need to apply grain filler once since I have adopted the system of using more sanding sealer, but I have done it up to three times.

Colt,

I am impressed that you are able to do your grain filling in one step. I have heard others mention locking the filler in with S&S so I think that's what helps. A few questions about your technique:

1. Your first coat of S&S- are you using it to start to fill the pores or is it more to help the filler grab the wood like a primer does?
2. When you buff the S&S are you trying to level it? Or remove it all together from the top surface of the wood, leaving it in the pores only? Why steel wool and not sandpaper?
3.
4. I think the squeegee process is where some of us are taking too much filler away. You said you use a light touch. Do you hold your scraper perpendicular with the body or at a low angle that is pushing the filler down into the wood?
5.
6. When you buff the hazy filler, are you trying to get all of the excess off from the top surface? That filler is tough stuff once it hardens. It's difficult to get the surface cleaned off in the buffing stage without pulling the filler from the wood pores. Advice?

Thank you for posting these instructions. This is one of the more challenging aspects of finishing for some of us.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by SixShooter

Colt,

I am impressed that you are able to do your grain filling in one step. I have heard others mention locking the filler in with S&S so I think that's what helps. A few questions about your technique:

1. Your first coat of S&S- are you using it to start to fill the pores or is it more to help the filler grab the wood like a primer does? My first coat of sealer serves two main purposes. 1). It seals the wood, and keeps the wood from sucking the solvent from the filler, making it harder to work with. 2). It helps fill the pores
2. When you buff the S&S are you trying to level it? Or remove it all together from the top surface of the wood, leaving it in the pores only? Why steel wool and not sandpaper? I buff the SS to remove ridges and drips so that the I can scrape the grain filler evenly. It helps level, but its not perfect. The steel wool simply scuffs the surface giving the grain filler something to hold onto.
3.
4. I think the squeegee process is where some of us are taking too much filler away. You said you use a light touch. Do you hold your scraper perpendicular with the body or at a low angle that is pushing the filler down into the wood?I hold it at a slight angle to keep the edges from diggin' in. But yes, use a light touch. You are just trying to remove excess filler, not level the surface. If you have too much shear force or pressure you will drag the filler out of the hole.
5.
6. When you buff the hazy filler, are you trying to get all of the excess off from the top surface? That filler is tough stuff once it hardens. It's difficult to get the surface cleaned off in the buffing stage without pulling the filler from the wood pores. Advice? The buffing stage is to remove all the loose filler left after scraping that is sitting on top. You are not trying to polish it flat or like a mirror surface. Once you spray the SS on to seal in the grain filler, you can work out all the little unlevelness of the filler itself. If your filler is getting tough, I think you are letting it sit too long. Usually only takes me about 10-15 minutes to get that nice hazy appearance, and the extra stuff buffs away in a mater of 20-30 seconds of buffing it with the burlap or stiff towel.

Thank you for posting these instructions. This is one of the more challenging aspects of finishing for some of us.

The key to this whole process is you are taking it in gradual steps. Not attacking it all at once. The purpose of grain filling is just to fill the pores. You get everything level by wet sanding the lacquer. My extra steps of SS some consider extra or unecessary act as little buffer/filler/leveling coats so you don't have to fool with the grain filler as much.

[Boogyman]

Thanks for this. Thread like this are just what n00bs like me look for. It's good that old hands like yourself have the patience to pass along knowledge that's so often taken for granted.

I have a bit of experience working with gunstocks, which involves mostly stains and oils, also done my share of automotive body/paint jobs, whereas epoxies are the norm these days. Guitar work seems to encompass a bit of both - some of the same woodworking/spraying techniques but different materials. It's been years since I worked with laquer.

[Texecaster]

Hi Colt,

Have you used this process on a body that has been dyed. That is, dye hand rubbed into raw wood?
Wouldn't all the S&S and grain filler discolour the dye?
I still need to find a good way to grain fill ash after hand rubbing dyes?
I tried just clear coats, but I ended up spraying around 20 odd coats to get it level.

Perhaps somehow add the dye to the grain filler?

Cheers.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by Texecaster

Hi Colt,

Have you used this process on a body that has been dyed. That is, dye hand rubbed into raw wood?
Wouldn't all the S&S and grain filler discolour the dye?
I still need to find a good way to grain fill ash after hand rubbing dyes?
I tried just clear coats, but I ended up spraying around 20 odd coats to get it level.

Perhaps somehow add the dye to the grain filler?

Cheers.

Sealer is clear, and would do nothing to the dye.

Grain filler does have a color, so you need to dye it to match or use a contrasting color that would look good.

For example. Say you want a transparent red finish on your ASH body.

1. Finish sand to 220.
2. Raise the grain, then lightly sand back to 220 or buff with steel wool.
2. Dampen the wood, and rub in(Massage) a quality red dye (like Transtint)
3. Allow to dry. Then apply a coat of sealer. And lightly sand it smooth. You don't want to sand through. Repeat.
4. Apply grain filler. You can either add black dye to the filler to gie you a nice contrasting black grain on the red, or dye the grain filler red. ( The example I showed above was actually died brown, it was a natural colored grain filler).
5. Apply a sealer. Allow to dry, and sand flat with 220.
6. etc. etc.

Of course, the easier/better solution in my opinion would be to use tinted lacquer over the grain filler/sealer to get the color you are after. It is my experience it is far easier to control the color spraying it on as a toner coat.

[Mad Kiwi]

Guys, a build thread recently said he ran out of sealer/filler and just sprayed his poly clear as a sealer.

Other than, I imagine, the wood drinking it, is this a realistic option?

As a (home) experienced car/motorcycle spray painter this appealed to me more than the grain fill, sanding sealer methods of which I have zero experience with.

I was thinking a 2 pack clear for chemical curing......then perhaps a 2 pack primer to build smoothness (I guess grain fill?). This is for a solid colour finish.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by Mad Kiwi

Guys, a build thread recently said he ran out of sealer/filler and just sprayed his poly clear as a sealer.

Other than, I imagine, the wood drinking it, is this a realistic option? I sent that gentelman a rather lengthy message on the subject. In short. Its a poor option in my opinion.

As a (home) experienced car/motorcycle spray painter this appealed to me more than the grain fill, sanding sealer methods of which I have zero experience with.

I was thinking a 2 pack clear for chemical curing......then perhaps a 2 pack primer to build smoothness (I guess grain fill?). This is for a solid colour finish.

I am cluess when you get into Automotive finishes. Those finishes may share similiar names, but aren't anywhere close to the same products.

[Texecaster]

THANKS Colt.
I think my sealer has a slight brown / muddy tint to it. I might look for an alternative.

I appreciate the time you have taken to type out these instructions.

Cheers.