Does this sound ok? (Rough finishing schedule)

[Cron]

Ok im finishing an ash tele.

So far im going to do:

1. Dampen body to raise grain and sand with 240 (repeat if neccesary)

2. Dye using red water based aniline dye.

3. Spray a coat or 2 of sealer (very thin)(i have option of oil based rattle
can poly or water based with spray gun)

4. Grain fill using water based black filler scraping it off very well.

5. Dont sand after its dry but wipe the in between areas clean with damp cloth (works, i tried it). This is to avoid sand throughs.

6. (optional) fill remaining pores with thin layer of epoxy as possible (wiping in step 5 takes off a little grainfiller)

5. Wet sand till surface flat.

7. Shoot gloss poly clear coats..... again choice of water based with spray gun or oil based rattle can.



Any pitfalls?
Is it ok to apply the epoxy over the thin softer sealer coat? Would only use epoxy if i use water based sealer.

I have a big compressor at home.... what psi/kpa should the meter on it read when using a gravity fed gun and water based poly?


Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Colt W. Knight]

Why fill with Epoxy when you have grain filler. Sometimes you need to apply the grain filler 2-3 times to get complete coverage.

I would use waterbased polyurethane over oil based any day of the week.

[Cron]

On my test pieces even after 3 fills i couldnt get an even surface. Wiping away the "dirtyness" of the grain filler always seems to pull up a littlle filler.... even when im careful and even when i wait till the filler is dry before wiping with a slightly damp cloth. Almost like the 2nd and 3rd grainfiller coats isnt adhering to the 1st. I also tried waiting just until the black filler "greys" over to try and see if the next coats of filler might adhere better.... no go.

With staining 1st i am terribly paranoid of sand through. So im not going to gob the filler on and then sand it back. If i didnt want the grain to come out nice and black i wouldve only used epoxy.

Maybe i need to try a better filler but this Timbermate stuff is what was recommended to me here in Australia. I do like how easy it cleans up since it is water based.

[Colt W. Knight]

hmmm.... I dont have this issue with the grain filler I use.

[thepassivevoice]

Originally Posted by Cron

With staining 1st i am terribly paranoid of sand through. So im not going to gob the filler on and then sand it back. If i didnt want the grain to come out nice and black i wouldve only used epoxy.

I'm no expert, but I've experimented with a lot of test pieces and was never able to pull this off. The only way I could get a glass like surface was to sand after applying the grain filler--otherwise the grain filler left a slightly rough surface. But as you mentioned, sanding back the filler will cause sand-throughs if you have previously applied a stain. I gave up on staining anything other than maple (which doesn't need to be filled).

If you want dark grain, you might try applying the filler first, sanding it smooth and then applying the stain. That might not work, though, because the filler may interfere with the stain. If that is indeed the case, I would omit the stain and apply the color as a tint added to a couple coats of your clear finish.

[Colt W. Knight]

If you are using black grain filler, you can fill the grain, then stain or vice versa. After you have applied your grain filler, use a few coats of sealer, and sand it back smooth. No big deal.

[bantam rooster]

Grain filling can be a tricky thing. I took a finishing class as part of luthier training, and our teacher was a fanatic for finishing. Anyway, the way I learned grain filling was this:

1. Brush on filler liberally, and fast, across the grain. Then use your brush to blot the filler, covering the whole surface again.

2. Stay in the room, and keep an eye on it. When most of the sheen is gone from the filler (he said about 70%, but when you're just estimating, that doesn't mean much), scrape diagonally across the grain with a flexible scraper (can be an old credit card, or something from a hardware store; it's very important that the corners be rounded off, and that the scraping surface isn't sharp. Make sure that it's absolutely smooth, because if it's not, you'll scratch the hell out of the body you just spent hours and hours sanding out.) Anyway, do a test scrape in the corner, and if it feels like it's stiffening up, but definitely not yet dry, you should be good to go.

3. After scraping, you can rub across the grain with some burlap, if you want. You'll have less sanding to do, but it will take a little filler up with it. It's always a compromise.

4. Repeat if necessary. Also, when sanding dried grain fill, it must be absolutely dry. If it doesn't powder up, and loads your sandpaper, let it be. You'll just pull more out of the pores, and if it's wet, it's still shrinking, so the effect is compounded. It usually just needs 12-24 hours to dry, but some oilier woods can take a week or more.


Also, keep in mind that when you scuff sand after raising the grain, use maybe 320 instead of 240. Use a really light touch, just barely hitting the whole surface maybe twice over. It takes almost nothing to take those stray fibers off. You might want to use shellac or sanding sealer instead of water to raise the grain, because it'll "freeze" the raised fibers, leaving a smoother, more stable surface.

Whew.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by bantam rooster

Grain filling can be a tricky thing. I took a finishing class as part of luthier training, and our teacher was a fanatic for finishing. Anyway, the way I learned grain filling was this:

1. Brush on filler liberally, and fast, across the grain. Then use your brush to blot the filler, covering the whole surface again.

2. Stay in the room, and keep an eye on it. When most of the sheen is gone from the filler (he said about 70%, but when you're just estimating, that doesn't mean much), scrape diagonally across the grain with a flexible scraper (can be an old credit card, or something from a hardware store; it's very important that the corners be rounded off, and that the scraping surface isn't sharp. Make sure that it's absolutely smooth, because if it's not, you'll scratch the hell out of the body you just spent hours and hours sanding out.) Anyway, do a test scrape in the corner, and if it feels like it's stiffening up, but definitely not yet dry, you should be good to go.

3. After scraping, you can rub across the grain with some burlap, if you want. You'll have less sanding to do, but it will take a little filler up with it. It's always a compromise.

4. Repeat if necessary. Also, when sanding dried grain fill, it must be absolutely dry. If it doesn't powder up, and loads your sandpaper, let it be. You'll just pull more out of the pores, and if it's wet, it's still shrinking, so the effect is compounded. It usually just needs 12-24 hours to dry, but some oilier woods can take a week or more.


Also, keep in mind that when you scuff sand after raising the grain, use maybe 320 instead of 240. Use a really light touch, just barely hitting the whole surface maybe twice over. It takes almost nothing to take those stray fibers off. You might want to use shellac or sanding sealer instead of water to raise the grain, because it'll "freeze" the raised fibers, leaving a smoother, more stable surface.

Whew.

This is good advice. When I apply grain filler here is the schedule I follow.

1. Finish sand the wood.
2. Raise the grain.
3. Apply 1 coat of sealer, sand back with 220
4. Apply 1 more coat of searler, buff with 000 steel wool. clean thoroughly.
5. Thin the filler to a consistency of snot.
6. massage it into the wood with my fingers until it becomes pasty.
7. I let it sit, while watching it, until it starts developing a filmy appearence
8. Scrap excess off with either a piece of acrylic or automotive bondo thingy.
9. Allow to dry.
10. buff with a shop rag or burlap analog.
11. Apply a coat of sealer. and repeat grain filling as neccessary.

I like putting a coat of sealer over each layer of filler because it keeps that filler from breaking out or dislodging like the previous poster mentioned.

[Cron]

Thanks for the great advice guys.

I tried applying the black grain filler 1st (on a testpiece) directly to the wood but it was a great big mess and darkened the wood all over. It took way too much sanding to get the in-between wood spots back to normal color.... and by that time new grain had been exposed in places. Im sure it being water based had something to do with that because it seemed to penetrate into the wood quite a lot. I will try thinning the filler less.

I can try to put a sealer coat or two 1st (before staining) and then put the black grain filler on but for some reason im a fan of applying stain directly to wood 1st because i feel it will give a richer color and not look so "glazed" over. Or am i wrong?


Do you guys tend to use water or oil based grain fillers?

Also i still need an answer as to whether its ok to put the water based epoxy over the water based sealer coats. (i assume using the water based epoxy over a oil based poly urethane sealer coat is a no go?)

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by Cron

Thanks for the great advice guys.

I tried applying the black grain filler 1st (on a testpiece) directly to the wood but it was a great big mess and darkened the wood all over. It took way too much sanding to get the in-between wood spots back to normal color.... and by that time new grain had been exposed in places. Im sure it being water based had something to do with that because it seemed to penetrate into the wood quite a lot. I will try thinning the filler less.

I can try to put a sealer coat or two 1st (before staining) and then put the black grain filler on but for some reason im a fan of applying stain directly to wood 1st because i feel it will give a richer color and not look so "glazed" over. Or am i wrong?
Well, most people have only ever used cheapo hardware store oil based stains that are simply awful. Highend furniture guys use more quality stains that are ussually lacquer based, and they go on in layers not just the bare wood. That is why high end furniture has depth and character.

Do you guys tend to use water or oil based grain fillers? I thin mine with Lacquer thinner, so I am assuming it is Acetone based Generally speaking, I am not too enthusiastic about most water based stuff.

Also i still need an answer as to whether its ok to put the water based epoxy over the water based sealer coats. (i assume using the water based epoxy over a oil based poly urethane sealer coat is a no go?)

After the polyurethane has cured, anything can go on top of it.

Being as you are in a different place than me, I don't know what you are using or whats available. Makes it tougher.