shellac for a maple neck finish?

[appar111]

I'm thinking of doing shellac for a finish on a maple neck & fretboard.

I'd like to use amber shellac, but since it's maple and I don't want it blotchy, should I use non-amber shellac for the first coat, and then use amber shellac for subsequent coats?

How many coats are needed for an adequate finish? I do realize that alcohol will definitely affect the finish, but I'm ok with that since I don't plan on spilling beers, etc. on the neck. :)

Also, how tricky is it going to be to use a brush or soft cloth to apply it on the fretboard?

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by appar111

I'm thinking of doing shellac for a finish on a maple neck & fretboard.

My favorite finish for a neck, bar none...

Originally Posted by appar111

I'd like to use amber shellac, but since it's maple and I don't want it blotchy, should I use non-amber shellac for the first coat, and then use amber shellac for subsequent coats?

Nah, just go for it with the amber....
It's not all that difficult to get it even in color...

Originally Posted by appar111

How many coats are needed for an adequate finish?

I dunno...
A dozen??
I like to French polish....

Originally Posted by appar111

Also, how tricky is it going to be to use a brush or soft cloth to apply it on the fretboard?

Just French polish right over the frets, and clean up the frets later when you dress them...
Check out the Blackguard Book for numerous pics of lacquer build-up on the sides of the frets, so that's how they did it as well back in the day...

Keep in mind that I'm building relics, and that I really like the way that shellac will accept aging...
It probably wears a lot quicker than lacquer...

I just like the idea that my hands are flying over bug residue...

[appar111]

Bug residue rules :)

The guitar that this neck will be going on to already looks like an old barn (worn alder, what's left of a paper-thin black lacquer finish, etc.), so I want something the yellows and ages/relics nice.

What shellac are you using? Flakes, or Zinsser Bullseye Amber Shellac?

[jrfrond]

Shellac is great stuff. I use it a lot as a washcoat under lacquer for guitars and drums, as well as the interior drum finish. I've used it for full finishes, french polishing, and even the birch trim on the inside of the picture window on the front of my house. It will go over or under anything, dries fast, and is totally non-toxic when cured (however, just thinking about the source of the product might make some people puke!).

The only caveat I have applying it to a neck is that, if you are using Bullseye, which is perfectly good shellac, you might want to let the shellac cure for a couple of weeks if building multiple coats, because it CAN get sticky-feeling when new. After awhile, shellac dries REALLY hard.

I use Bullseye all the time, mixing the Clear and Amber versions for whatever tint I want. However, for a neck, in order to expedite the curing, you might want to go for fresh, blond, dewaxed shellac flakes. Mix (and strain) it yourself, mixing only the amount you need. You can tint it with alcohol-based dyes if you'd like. Fresh shellac cures fast and hard very quickly, and if you are going to French it on, it is THE best way to go, as the build is pretty quick.

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by appar111

What shellac are you using? Flakes, or Zinsser Bullseye Amber Shellac?

I got some flakes off (I think) e%$y...
They are pretty dark, but the finish is pretty Fender-esque, and fairly light in color...

Mix with Everclear (great stuff!!), and apply with a soft cloth backed with a large wool ball....
Lots of fun, really...

[appar111]

thanks for the advice! The fresh flakes are expensive though--- Woodcraft sells a big bag of them for $22 a bag. There's gotta be a place that has them for less than that.

[appar111]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

Shellac is great stuff. I use it a lot as a washcoat under lacquer for guitars and drums, as well as the interior drum finish. I've used it for full finishes, french polishing, and even the birch trim on the inside of the picture window on the front of my house. It will go over or under anything, dries fast, and is totally non-toxic when cured (however, just thinking about the source of the product might make some people puke!).

The only caveat I have applying it to a neck is that, if you are using Bullseye, which is perfectly good shellac, you might want to let the shellac cure for a couple of weeks if building multiple coats, because it CAN get sticky-feeling when new. After awhile, shellac dries REALLY hard.

I use Bullseye all the time, mixing the Clear and Amber versions for whatever tint I want. However, for a neck, in order to expedite the curing, you might want to go for fresh, blond, dewaxed shellac flakes. Mix (and strain) it yourself, mixing only the amount you need. You can tint it with alcohol-based dyes if you'd like. Fresh shellac cures fast and hard very quickly, and if you are going to French it on, it is THE best way to go, as the build is pretty quick.

If I'm only doing a few coats--- enough to seal the wood but still feel like bare wood, how long should I allow the Bullseye to cure?

Would a few coats (2-3) be adequate to seal the wood?

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by appar111

thanks for the advice! The fresh flakes are expensive though--- Woodcraft sells a big bag of them for $22 a bag. There's gotta be a place that has them for less than that.

Here's some...

[maryjane]

imho, when tinting; always clear coat first with any wood, because there is always a chance of some areas soaking up more color than others, goes for maple and mahog too.
a clear primary coat will prevent that from happening.
just my .000002cents

[the_best_of_fools]

Can shellac be wet sanded and buffed with compound like lacquer? Say you use the Zinsser shellac in a can (applied with a brush), how do you polish it and what do you use?

tbof

[the_best_of_fools]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

I just like the idea that my hands are flying over bug residue...

(From the Zinsser website:)

Non-toxic/hypoallergenic – Dry shellac is certified by the Food and Drug Administration as a protective glaze for candy and pharmaceuticals.

[jrfrond]

In response to the last few posts:

2-3 coats of Bullseye will seal the wood fairly well, but it WILL wear through over time. You can always wipe on more if you want. Shellac is really thin in texture and forms equally thin coats.

You CAN wet-sand and buff shellac if you build up LOTS of coats. However, the more traditional method of high-luster/gloss finishing with shellac is hand-applied French Polishing, which is an acquired skill and art. Basically, you build up the finish and gloss in a single, consolidated, yet multi-faceted operation. Shellac would be easy to buff through. It ALL must be done by hand.

Using a shellac washcoat (2lb. cut) BEFORE staining wood, especially maple, will prevent the blotchiness that often occurs. The wood still absorbs the stain, but the shellac sealer prevents over-absorption in more porous areas.

Yes, as I said, cured shellac is totally non-toxic. As far as the approved FDA use is concerned, I wouldn't get skeeved-out by it's origin, as it is so far removed. Believe me, most of us put LOTS worse in our mouths (willingly, no less) every single day.

[jkingma]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

My favorite finish for a neck, bar none...

+1,000

[appar111]

It sounds like it would be a real bear to apply a shellac finish in a decent manner on a maple fretboard.

Ideally, I'd like to just be able to swing by the hardware store, pick up some Bullseye Amber Shellac, some Natural Shellac and some denatured alcohol. Then I could just wrap a soft cotton t-shirt scrap around some cotton balls, dip it in some thinned down Bullseye and buff it into the wood in a tight circular motion.

Would this work, or do I have to buy the flakes, learn the artform, etc.? I think I'd rather forego that whole process if it's more difficult than it's worth, and either do a few spray coats of Minwax satin nitro, or an old shop rag and some Tru-Oil.

I'd just rather keep the finish natural, thin, and something that gets a great slight vintage tint right out of the gate that deepens with age. I was just hoping that would also be something easy to apply.

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by appar111

It sounds like it would be a real bear to apply a shellac finish in a decent manner on a maple fretboard.

Why?
Just go between the frets, and don't worry about cleaning up the frets. That all happens when you dress the frets, and it all comes out fine...

And don't be intimidated by the process of French polishing, especially when it comes to a Fender style neck....
And especially if you're gonna age it a bit...

It's not a guitar or grand piano....

Here's a great read on the subject...

And another...

[jrfrond]

Originally Posted by appar111

It sounds like it would be a real bear to apply a shellac finish in a decent manner on a maple fretboard.

Ideally, I'd like to just be able to swing by the hardware store, pick up some Bullseye Amber Shellac, some Natural Shellac and some denatured alcohol. Then I could just wrap a soft cotton t-shirt scrap around some cotton balls, dip it in some thinned down Bullseye and buff it into the wood in a tight circular motion.

Would this work, or do I have to buy the flakes, learn the artform, etc.? I think I'd rather forego that whole process if it's more difficult than it's worth, and either do a few spray coats of Minwax satin nitro, or an old shop rag and some Tru-Oil.

I'd just rather keep the finish natural, thin, and something that gets a great slight vintage tint right out of the gate that deepens with age. I was just hoping that would also be something easy to apply.

Well, you kind of have the first part of French Polishing, called "Padding", down with the cotton "rubber", and that is, in fact how you put on the first couple of coats. You can stop there and after they are dry, rub lightly with a little 4/0 steel wool to smooth it and be done with it. If you need it again down the road, do it again. No big deal. If you are just loking to seal against the elements and handling, then this is OK. If you are looking for a sheen that will last for awhile, shellac isn't the answer. Then you need to go with lacquer.

[the_best_of_fools]

Thanks for all that information, jrfrond.

All I know about shellac is that I have a strat neck (from Musikraft) that is finished in shellac. It's very soft and fast, almost feels like bare wood with no finish, not sticky at all. My most amazing and prefered neck in my collection. I'm in the process of building a Tele and will most certainly buy another neck with a shellac finish (also from musikraft). It's good to know I can continue building up the finish with tinted shellac.

Thanks,
tbof

[appar111]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

Well, you kind of have the first part of French Polishing, called "Padding", down with the cotton "rubber", and that is, in fact how you put on the first couple of coats. You can stop there and after they are dry, rub lightly with a little 4/0 steel wool to smooth it and be done with it. If you need it again down the road, do it again. No big deal. If you are just loking to seal against the elements and handling, then this is OK. If you are looking for a sheen that will last for awhile, shellac isn't the answer. Then you need to go with lacquer.

It sounds like if I used that method for the first couple coats and just want to seal the wood (i.e. have it still look almost bare, with no "sheen") then I'm good. Just a couple coats of shellac applied in that manner will still amber with age, right? If I start with Bullseye Amber, I'll be that much further ahead. I'll still do the first coat with the natural/clear Bullseye to be safe against blotching.

It's all the other stuff to build up a super deep, rich finish that I just know I don't have the skills developed for. This will be a pretty nice neck, and I don't want to "learn" on it, so I'll just go with a couple coats using the cotton rubber method, followed up w/ 0000 steel wool.

I'll report after I've done some testing on some wood scraps.

thanks for the advice!

[LuvN Guitars]

Originally Posted by appar111

It sounds like if I used that method for the first couple coats and just want to seal the wood (i.e. have it still look almost bare, with no "sheen") then I'm good. Just a couple coats of shellac applied in that manner will still amber with age, right? If I start with Bullseye Amber, I'll be that much further ahead. I'll still do the first coat with the natural/clear Bullseye to be safe against blotching.

It's all the other stuff to build up a super deep, rich finish that I just know I don't have the skills developed for. This will be a pretty nice neck, and I don't want to "learn" on it, so I'll just go with a couple coats using the cotton rubber method, followed up w/ 0000 steel wool.

I'll report after I've done some testing on some wood scraps.

thanks for the advice!

Here's a pic of some cheap white colored Radiata pine (about as white as maple) with 3 coats of amber shellac, just to give an adea of the degree of tint.
While I do French Polish, this was just wiped on, which is a method that is easy and works well, if you're worried about the "art" aspect of French Polishing.
Make a pad of soft lint free cotton, dip in shellac, wipe in an even strait line, one direction. Wait a few minutes for that coat to touch dry and repeat. You might not get a perfectly smooth finish, but after you've built up a few coats and have let it dry for a few days you can level any sports just the same as you would laquer. Give one (or more) light coat after leveling and when totaly dry, say in a couple of weeks, hand polish. Shellac wears beautifully, lasts well and can be recoated easily. Vintage Martins, Gibsons, etcetera, are finished in the stuff.

[schoolie]

I bought my shellac flakes from http://www.shellac.net. I just bought the sampler bags which go for like $7. I mixed two parts amber and one part garnet in my concoction, and I rely like the results. The only problem was that this allparts neck had some kind of weird sealer applied so the shellac sent on splotchy. I diluted with some alcohol to maybe 1/2 pound cut and got much better results. When I was tired of waiting, I put on a thin top coat of wipe on poly.

[appar111]

Originally Posted by LuvN Guitars

Here's a pic of some cheap white colored Radiata pine (about as white as maple) with 3 coats of amber shellac, just to give an adea of the degree of tint.
While I do French Polish, this was just wiped on, which is a method that is easy and works well, if you're worried about the "art" aspect of French Polishing.
Make a pad of soft lint free cotton, dip in shellac, wipe in an even strait line, one direction. Wait a few minutes for that coat to touch dry and repeat. You might not get a perfectly smooth finish, but after you've built up a few coats and have let it dry for a few days you can level any sports just the same as you would laquer. Give one (or more) light coat after leveling and when totaly dry, say in a couple of weeks, hand polish. Shellac wears beautifully, lasts well and can be recoated easily. Vintage Martins, Gibsons, etcetera, are finished in the stuff.

It's the fretboard that I'm the most worried about-- getting things to go on evenly without any streaks, etc. seems like it might be harder than with something like wipe-on poly or Tru-Oil, since shellac dries so darned fast.

[LuvN Guitars]

I don't think you'd have a problem as each coat of shellac disolves the one underneath it. Sort of helps smooth things out. maybe practice on some maple scrap first, that's always a good idea. I never use a new stain or finish without testing first, less stuff ups that way.
Or maybe I should say I've never found streaking to be a problem when using shellac, especialy with a hard close grain wood like maple, not a lot of anything soaks into maple. Softer woods or woods with distinct hard and soft grain areas can be more of a problem due to the soft areas soaking up more.

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by appar111

It's the fretboard that I'm the most worried about-- getting things to go on evenly without any streaks, etc. seems like it might be harder than with something like wipe-on poly or Tru-Oil, since shellac dries so darned fast.

OK, I'm a total ignoramous when it comes to anal finishing work, etc...
That's why relicing appeals to me...
I can hide my imperfections

With that in mind, French polishing the neck is one of my favorite parts of building a guitar.
It's--quite simply--fun...

No great skill is required to get a fairly perfect finish, with no blotches, uneven colorations, etc.

The peghead face always looks perfect, and has the rich look of an old authentic guitar...

And the fingerboard comes out much better than any spraying technique I've tried...

Just do it.
It's so easy even I can do it...

[appar111]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

OK, I'm a total ignoramous when it comes to anal finishing work, etc...
That's why relicing appeals to me...
I can hide my imperfections

With that in mind, French polishing the neck is one of my favorite parts of building a guitar.
It's--quite simply--fun...

No great skill is required to get a fairly perfect finish, with no blotches, uneven colorations, etc.

The peghead face always looks perfect, and has the rich look of an old authentic guitar...

And the fingerboard comes out much better than any spraying technique I've tried...

Just do it.
It's so easy even I can do it...

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Because I'm close to jusst going with Tru-Oil instead. Think a fresh can of Zinsser Bullseye Natural and a can of denatured alcohol would be adequate for the job? I can grab it on the way home from work (rather than ordering a sample bag of flakes & waiting) and start practicing.

schoolie-- thanks for the link. I think the "beige" flakes would be what I'm looking for if I go the flake route--- not too yellow, but not as transparent as the blonde.

[thepassivevoice]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

Mix with Everclear (great stuff!!), and apply with a soft cloth backed with a large wool ball....
Lots of fun, really...

Just curious, other than the fact that you can water it down and drink it, what's the benefit of Everclear? Even in the states where it's legal, it's alot more expensive than denatured alcohol.

[tonewoods]

Originally Posted by thepassivevoice

Just curious, other than the fact that you can water it down and drink it, what's the benefit of Everclear? Even in the states where it's legal, it's alot more expensive than denatured alcohol.

I dunno...
I'd rather mix something that is perfectly safe to injest with my bug residue...

Seriously, I've been told by a lot of violin makers to avoid denatured alcohol because of it's potentially poisonious additives...

Here's something I just picked off of Wiki:

"Because the metabolic pathways for ethanol and methanol share a common enzyme, alcohol dehydrogenase, ethanol or fomepizole can be used to treat methanol (found in denatured alcohol) poisoning by blocking the enzyme until the body can excrete enough methanol.

In a documented case, a ship worker poisoned while cleaning out a methanol tank was successfully treated with administration of a good portion of the liquor in the ship's 'medicine chest.'"

[appar111]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

I dunno...
I'd rather mix something that is perfectly safe to injest with my bug residue...

Seriously, I've been told by a lot of violin makers to avoid denatured alcohol because of it's potentially poisonious additives...

So if I don't use denatured alcohol, and everclear isn't exactly easy to come by around here, what should I use to thin it down?

[jrfrond]

Just use denatured alcohol and don't worry about it.....seriously. Sooner or later, something is going to kill everyone of us, and it won't be denatured alcohol, unless you drink it.

[straightface]

Originally Posted by the_best_of_fools

Thanks for all that information, jrfrond.

All I know about shellac is that I have a strat neck (from Musikraft) that is finished in shellac. It's very soft and fast, almost feels like bare wood with no finish, not sticky at all. My most amazing and prefered neck in my collection. I'm in the process of building a Tele and will most certainly buy another neck with a shellac finish (also from musikraft). It's good to know I can continue building up the finish with tinted shellac.

Thanks,
tbof

I just picked up a new Musikraft neck (my first from them) on ebay that was sealed with shellac and has no other finish on it. According to them leaving it this way won't void the warranty either. It feels great, nice and smooth like bare wood.

[IggyT]

Take a look at the two esquires I built (finished and assmbled is probably more accurate out of respect for those who build their own truss rods!) over the last year.
Both necks (and bodies ) were done with shellac first...amber that I mixed from flakes...actually cheaper tha you think.
I then did a thin nitro clearcoat on the necks.
iggy

[dman]

Has anybody used amber shellac (Zinsser or flakes) over a poly-coated neck like a Mighty Mite? If so, how did that work out?

[Vizcaster]

+1 on flakes. Seems expensive but you'll never waste any of it if you're mixing it in small batches. That way it's always fresh. Ever have a can of Bulls Eye that just wouldn't harden because it's not fresh?

You can also get blonde, amber, or garnet shellac for different applications, and generally the flakes can be purchased pre-de-waxed so you don't have to decant off the wax. Except for Sealcoat, the other Bullseye shellacs still have some wax in them which softens the finish and makes topcoating with other products difficult. My main use for shellac is as a barrier coat between a dye stain and a sealer or topcoat, so it's important that it's dewaxed. As long as you realize that shellac is not the most durable finish used on its own, you should be very happy with the results.

Leave the Everclear for homemade batches of limoncella. Denatured alcohol is likely to be more anhydrous (in other words fresher and have less water in it).

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by the_best_of_fools

(From the Zinsser website:)

Non-toxic/hypoallergenic – Dry shellac is certified by the Food and Drug Administration as a protective glaze for candy and pharmaceuticals.

It's what skittles are coated in.

[toadman]

so let me ask this question....let's say i finish a neck in shellac but want to paint the headstock face. is shellac an acceptable base for laquer??

[toadman]

anybody?

[mike shaw]

"so let me ask this question....let's say i finish a neck in shellac but want to paint the headstock face. is shellac an acceptable base for laquer??"

Yes.

[toadman]

hey thanks! and welcome to TDPRI!

[mike shaw]

Thanks! Actually, I've been lurking here for quite a while but strated getting reaquainted with my Teles. so I signed up.