refin not going well, what are my options? so far this what I've done...

[mlove3]

stripped it all the way down to wood, followed the reranch directions. wood grain filler, sand, refill 3 times. lacquer sealer coat. sanding sealer, 3 coats, sand down as smooth as possible.
This is where I went wrong. It wasn't glass like. I may have needed a couple more coats, and it was hard to tell if I was going through to wood on the edges.

So, of course I blasted away with my first coat, auto paint Duplicolor, black. and I can see grain showing. and drips because I have no idea what I'm doing.

I'll check it when it's dry in a couple hours, but I'm afraid more paint is not gonna hide my sins. Can I continue to put more coats on and wet sand, build it up? will it work?

Should I sand down as much as I can of what I painted and try another coat of sanding sealer?
suggestions??

This is a lot of work!

[gitlvr]

You can build up enough finish to get a flat, level surface, but it'll take quite a bit, and when the lacquer shrinks, it'll most likely sink back into the grain. It sounds like you didn't get enough grain filler in. I'd take it back to wood, thouroughly fill the grain, and start over.

[mlove3]

oohh

not what I wanted to hear.

looks like I'll be borrowing a guitar for the next gig.

[maddog]

Is it an ash or mohagany body? I agree with gitlvr smooth it back down & fill again. This time before painting put a couple coats of primer on, that always seems to work better for me than sand & sealer. Just my method though....

[ThaLowEndTheory]

Originally Posted by gitlvr

You can build up enough finish to get a flat, level surface, but it'll take quite a bit, and when the lacquer shrinks, it'll most likely sink back into the grain. It sounds like you didn't get enough grain filler in. I'd take it back to wood, thouroughly fill the grain, and start over.

+1
I'm assuming it's ash wood you are working with. It usually takes at least 2 rounds of grain filler, sometimes more. Prep work is everything. Make sure the wood is sanded as level as possible first. Then spray a light coat of sanding sealer. Next grain is grain filler. Let it dry over night and sand smooth. Then spray sealer. U should be able to see if there are any deep pores or grain lines at this point. Hold the guitar at different angles under light. If everything is filled then continue with your sanding sealer. I usually do 2 rounds of sealer. Let it dry over night. First round is sanded with 220 grit sandpaper. I don't try to completely level everything at this point. Just knock down the high spots. Then I spray 2 or 3 more coats of sealer. Let it dry over night again then level sand with 400. The low spots will be shiney, and everything else should be matte. Look for any spots lighter in color as well. If you see any then you have sanded through back to wood. You will know everything is level when there are no more low(shiney) spots, and no lighter colored spots(sand throughs). Then you will be ready for primer, or color if you are not using primer. Hope this clears it up a little.

[olaftheholy]

+1 lowend


Actually apply a washcoat of lacquer before grainfilling makes the grainfiller adhere like crazy in the grain!

You could get away with a mere two fillings of the grain like that....
Then sand flat, sealcoat of lacquer, then sanding sealer, lots of it... sand flat.
Check for mirror appearence... if it does have,

shoot.
if not... rework untill it does have that mirror surface!


goos luck!

[mlove3]

thanks for the suggestions guys. Well, I took a look at it with fresh eyes this morning, wet sanded the first coat of paint and it didn't look terrible, I think it may work. until I went to spray the second coat and what's this? a big hunk of raised grain right in the open are on the front, not say, where the pickguard would cover it. I must've used to much water wet sanding and popped through to the bare wood.Thanks Murphy, your law prevails again.

So..I'm gonna take as much paint off as i can, refill the popping grain, sanding seal the whole thing again and do it right. sort of. If I don't get all the paint off perfectly can I still put the sanding sealer on with paint underneath??

ooh mama this is a project and a half.

all suggestions welcome, you guys are the experts and I clearly have no idea what I'm doing.

[gitlvr]

Originally Posted by mlove3

all suggestions welcome, you guys are the experts and I clearly have no idea what I'm doing.

Don't feel too bad, all of us could stand to learn more. That's the great thing about this place. There's a lot of people here more than willing to share what they know.

[mlove3]

ok...
brought the top back down to bare wood, two wood grain filler treatments, sanded em, smooth baby. threw a thin coat of sanding sealer down, and now we come to the critical part of the process.

last time I attempted this the sealer apparently wasn't dry enough, even after a week? I mustve put it on too thick because when i went to sand it was pilling into little pebbles and gumming up.

I assume it's supposed to be hard and sand into a powder, correct?

this time for sure!!

knock on wood (ash)

[maddog]

Yes it shouldn't be pebbles. What grit paper are you using at this point? 800 or so at the roughest & use a hand block & just kind of lightly "polish" it. You'll be OK this time. You know the warning signs!!!

[mlove3]

using 600 paper. I tried sanding the first coat of sanding sealer last nite, gave it a day and a half to dry, still gumming up and a little pebble action,so again it's not dry enough. Feels dry. Lighter sandpaper, 800 make that much difference?
Is 1500 too light?

[Meekster]

Originally Posted by mlove3

using 600 paper. I tried sanding the first coat of sanding sealer last nite, gave it a day and a half to dry, still gumming up and a little pebble action,so again it's not dry enough. Feels dry. Lighter sandpaper, 800 make that much difference?
Is 1500 too light?

Edit: I was reading a different thread when I replied to this one

sorry nevermind

[maddog]

You'll find a noticeable difference between 600 & 800. Yeah 1500 is too light. That's for finish polishing. Where do you have that drying? What's the temperature? 1-1/2 days would normally be long enough but it depends on the temp & how thick you're laying it on. Give it another day & try it again. Don't rush it now, because the prep work is what's going to make it shine!

[Old Cane]

Use primer to keep the grain from showing through.

[maddog]

I agree Old Cane. I always use a couple coats of primer on a solid color body.

[mlove3]

I have a gig tonite, I'm borrowing a (gasp!!) strat, so i won't have time to touch it until tomorrow. It's in the basemnet, but it's relatively dry and warm down there, not your typical damp hole.

[mlove3]

putting the tele back together tonite (I hope I have time) to gig with it tomorrow, right now it's 3 coats of sanding sealer, unsanded. The plan is to play the next few gigs with it like that then in 3 weeks pull it apart, sand it, another coat of sealer, sand, then paint. knock on wood.

[Southern Ill Electrics]

Don't excpect very good result by going ahead and gigging with it in this state and then tearing it back down.

[mlove3]

"Don't excpect very good result by going ahead and gigging with it in this state and then tearing it back down. "

Why not? Too late. It stays this way until mid Nov. The sanding sealer is protecting the wood isn't it? I haven't sanded it yet, and if the whole process takes another month that's ok.

Shoulda just bought a body, finished it and swapped it out. Live and learn.

[414driver]

The sanding sealer is somewhat porous, and by handling it you're installing oils into the finish that WILL cause you problems unless it is totally removed before finishing!

[mlove3]

oops.
And here I thought this project couldn't get any more complicated.
Will problems with the finish show up immediately or 6 months down the road does the whole thing burst into flames, what are we talking here? I can live with small imperfections.

[jimd]

Finishing a guitar takes time. I would not have started on a refin. if you need that guitar. But, you are stuck now. Make sure you clean it thoroughly with some naptha before spraying it again.

What kind of sanding sealer are you using? It should dry quick and sand easily. The only exception to that is minwax sanding sealer. Don't use that brand.

[mlove3]

I'm using one that was recommended here, Deft.
Again, what kind of problmes am I looking at here, slight imperfections, bubbles, the gates of hell opening???

[rhomco]

400/600 wet or dry sandpaper (black stuff) or 800 (brown stuff) and use mineral spirits or naptha to wet sand it with a rubber block. The paper cuts and washes away the debris without so many clogs. If it still clogs, your problem is the sealer.
Rob

[Southern Ill Electrics]

You can buy the most expensive paint....grain filler .......the best of the best.....but if you don't get the prep work done right......Your gonna have a mess.

Devil is in the details.......that is where it matters most in achieving even a decent refinish......when you get the prep work done correctly and on to paint...your refurb will go smoothly..............Knowing how to fix your mistakes without freaking out helps.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by mlove3

So..I'm gonna take as much paint off as i can, refill the popping grain, sanding seal the whole thing again and do it right. sort of. If I don't get all the paint off perfectly can I still put the sanding sealer on with paint underneath??

Sure. One of the properties of a good sanding sealer is its willingness to stick to almost any existing material.

But here's another approach. Buy a second body. Play the guitar as is and work slowly and methodically on the second body, giving products time to dry, etc. If it turns out like I think it will, you'll have the confidence to go ahead and switch bodies, then redo that first body the right way.

Some of my projects were truly sweated over, months and months, and others were slammed out in an embarrassingly little amount of time. Depends the type of result you crave; sometimes it is easier to develop a liking for rustic, country style detailing. Like what you can do and do what you like - believe you can do it, most of all.

[mlove3]

ok...if I sand it down and use the naptha what are my chances of this thing coming out decent?
and I appreciate the advice but what kind of problems are we talking here, minor imperfections? Horribly disfigured? At this point I'm gonna go ahead with it because what do I have to lose other than the time and a couple bucks for paint?

[mlove3]

I went ahead and sanded my 2 coats of deft sanding sealer down and I think I realize what my problem is here...

I'm sanding off too much. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read in various places I should sand down the first coats and if there are still shiny spots put another couple coats on, then sand when dry, repeat until it's smooth without going down to wood.

I've also read that the SS coats shouldn't be fine sanded because paint won't stick if it's mirror smooth.

I think I'm just too aggressive with the sanding.


anyone?

[shoretyus]

Read post #5 carefully. You are trying to build up the finish. Sealer is to level the surface. Yes it sounds like your too aggressive. Good chance you aren't putting enough on. The sealer should be dull and smooth ( and dusty) yes but you have some leeway because you are now going to build up coats of Lacquer. The sealer stops the wood from absorbing the lacquer so it can build up. It's the built up layers of lacquer is what you polish smooth and shiney. The buffing (polishing) process can remove imperfections that you may get. But as others have pointed out that the better the coats go on the less work that step is. I prefer to call it finishing the finish.

Originally Posted by mlove3

I went ahead and sanded my 2 coats of deft sanding sealer down and I think I realize what my problem is here...

I'm sanding off too much. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've read in various places I should sand down the first coats and if there are still shiny spots put another couple coats on, then sand when dry, repeat until it's smooth without going down to wood.

I've also read that the SS coats shouldn't be fine sanded because paint won't stick if it's mirror smooth.

I think I'm just too aggressive with the sanding.


anyone?

[mlove3]

Yes, post #5 is what I'm aspiring to do.

went to a wood craft shop at lunch yesterday and picked up the deft sanding sealer spray can, as opposed to the brush on which is what I did before.

BIG difference. I may actually be getting the hang of this. I put a couple light coats on last night, sanded lightly!!, then a couple more light coats a couple hours later, etc..
This is going much smoother so far, literally. I'm building it up slowly and sanding lightly in between, much easier to work with. A big part of this for me is getting the hang of spraying, I need to go light!

So now I have a whole can of sealer on there, if I can get it sanded flat should I go ahead and prime? or throw a few more coats of sealer on there to build up?

This could work, knock on wood!!!