Playing with shellac

[Bill Scheltema]

As you know from my other threads I was looking into Zinssers Seal Coat shellac. I picked some up yesterday and began experimenting with it.

The darker shots have some light maple dye applied firstly.
They all have about 4 rounds of application with sanding with 220 in the later rounds.
It is slowly filling in, the shellac is a 2lb cut according to the info sheet, 100% wax free, its dated Oct 22,2008, Zinsser claims a 3 year shelf life.

This is poplar wood if your wondering.
I wiped on with a lint free cotton cloth, with the grain.
I will keep going this way until I get a true flat surface then I will hit it with Deft Clear Gloss Lacquer and see how it looks.

Any suggestions would be great.

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

If the grain filling with shellac becomes tedious - - and it can be - - try filling the deeper pits with cyanoacrylate. It's crystal clear, dries fast, and shellac bonds to it like crazy. I've been amazed at how far three drops of CA will go when spread with a nylon or charge-card scraper. Do it outside or wear a respirator, though.

[Bill Scheltema]

I just put a first round of shellac on the body, and so far so good.

We'll see how subsequent rounds go.

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

I just put a first round of shellac on the body, and so far so good.

We'll see how subsequent rounds go.

Bill

Pretty amazing what one thin coat of shellac can do, eh? It's like a magnifying glass for wood grain.

[Big Mike Simpson]

I Mix Shellac from flakes (Hock or Behlens) with Behlens Bekhol for best results. You can thin the cut and spray with a preval sprayer to get more buildup as padding or wipe on cuts into the previous coat and makes it difficult to get an even coat. You can get flakes in different shades and I vary the amount of "super blonde" and "garnet" flakes to get the amber color I want.

I spray Behlens stringed instrument (nitro) lacquer over the shellac.

[Bill Scheltema]

Well here is a back and front view to start things off.

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

I really like the grain on that poplar. Nice to see something other than ash for a change - - and I do like ash.

Picking up on what Big Mike said, I like the way wipe-on poly goes over shellac, too, especially on maple. Lacquer, poly, it's all good. Shellac takes it all.

[Bill Scheltema]

Yeah the poplar isn't bad, considering it was stair tread cutoffs given to me as a first guitar body attempt.

Not too crazy about that middle band of light poplar,I should have rotated it 180 degrees to put it on the outer edge, but it's going to be getting a blonde finish in the end.

Bill

[Bill Scheltema]

Well, I added a third thin layer of shellac, I was reading up on shellac applications and there was mention of too thick of layers and you could run the risk of an alligator effect once lacquer goes on.
That shellac adds a nice shimmer to the grain thats real nice.

Here's a neat article on shellac

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

When padding light cuts, you can get away with several applications in a day. With any other method, be wary. I may be preaching to the choir here. In any case, it's not a bad idea to give it a day or so to harden up when you've put on several light coats. Especially if you're thinking of sanding. I've learned that patience with shellac is just as important as patience with lacquer.

[Bill Scheltema]

Duely noted.
I'll let it sit a couple of days now.

What do you use to level sand your shellac, I know there are a few ways one could go.

Bill

[Beerfish]

this guitar was yellow dye, amber shelac, behlem vynel sealer then behlems lacqure on the whole thing maple ,pine and lace wood.I started wipeing on but found it was much better with a preval sprayer.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Duely noted.
I'll let it sit a couple of days now.

What do you use to level sand your shellac, I know there are a few ways one could go.

Bill

When I've needed to spot sand, I've used the foam-backed abrasive sheets available at our Home Depot and Lowes stores. 400 and 600 grit does the trick. When I spray shellac, more block sanding is necessary; when I pad it on, only touch-ups are needed. #0000 steel wool can be used to smooth off a retouched area before applying a final wipe. After that, I polish with a microfiber cloth - - I've never used any sort of power tool for polishing shellac. But then, I don't care much about achieving a mirror finish. I come close enough with hand buffing.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Beerfish

this guitar was yellow dye, amber shelac, behlem vynel sealer then behlems lacqure on the whole thing maple ,pine and lace wood.I started wipeing on but found it was much better with a preval sprayer.

Very nice work, indeed. I've come to the point where I think shellac as an undercoat for lacquer or poly is about as good as it gets. I can see advantages to using lacquer on top; I think I'll try that on my next body.

[Big Mike Simpson]

Here is my pinecaster with Behlens nitro Lacquer over Hock super blonde and Behlens garnet shellac flakes.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

Here is my pinecaster with Behlens nitro Lacquer over Hock super blonde and Behlens garnet shellac flakes.

You can just look at that piney and know it's a tone monster. Something along those lines is what I'd like to do next. I need to find someone who sells good pine slabs.

Looks like a Wilkinson bridge you've got there, Mike - - am I correct? I like the one I have, would buy another. What pickups did you go with?

[Bill Scheltema]

When you do a level sanding what do you use for lubrication?

Bill

[Al Watsky]

Paraffin wax is a typical "old school" sanding lube. you can also use it with pumice and or rotten stone. Mineral oil, and other oils can also be used.
Water can be used in cases where the finish has been applied with oil and even when it hasn't if your careful.
With store bought shellac water will be fine I bet, try adding a drop of dish soap to help keep the paper free of build up. What does the can say as far as additives ?.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

When you do a level sanding what do you use for lubrication?

Bill

Al's information is correct. I've used mineral oil, but found it messy. I questioned whether it was worth the aggravation. I prefer dry sanding now. 320 grit and higher can be buffed out to my satisfaction. I like the foam abrasive sheets - - they don't seem to clog badly, wash out easily, and as they wear out, they can be used as very fine finishing sheets.

[EW57]

For me, wipe on poly did funny things to the sample that I grain filled with shellac, as in it either created pin holes, or seemed to make the shellac "fall" in places where it was thick due to the grain.

[Big Mike Simpson]

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

You can just look at that piney and know it's a tone monster. Something along those lines is what I'd like to do next. I need to find someone who sells good pine slabs.

Looks like a Wilkinson bridge you've got there, Mike - - am I correct? I like the one I have, would buy another. What pickups did you go with?

All the hardware is Callaham and the pickups are Fender Nocasters. The body is Guitar Mill, the neck is an Allparts TMO-fat and I made the leather guard and strap. It is my #1, I rarely play anything else.

Here is the build thread from 2007
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...rtscaster.html

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

All the hardware is Callaham and the pickups are Fender Nocasters. The body is Guitar Mill, the neck is an Allparts TMO-fat and I made the leather guard and strap. It is my #1, I rarely play anything else.

Here is the build thread from 2007
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...rtscaster.html

I remember that thread now - - I actually showed some of the pictures to my wife and said "I've GOT to do one of these pine Teles." I really like the way the pieces were joined. Nice color in the finish, too.

[Bill Scheltema]

Well I spent awhile level wet sanding the body just to see. I used 600 wet so I wouldn't go too fast.

There were a couple of areas (small mind you) that needed building up so I put another coat on the body, I think one last hit with leveling and it'll be ready for a nitro barrier coat.

I really like this part of the build, wierd.

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

I don't know enough about optical physics, light refraction, etc., to explain to anyone how shellac creates such a great finish, but once you've seen it, you get it. And what's really interesting is that top-coating it doesn't neutralize that effect. I will say that I have tried necks that were finished in poly and in lacquer, but the straight shellac - - buffed only to a satin sheen - - really feels smooth and fast. Since I'm not a pro who puts serious wear on his instruments, I can't speak to the durability of shellac compared to the other finishes. I do know that it's easy to touch up, maybe even easier than lacquer.

[Bill Scheltema]

Your right there, if it weren't for a small tearout at the bottom of the lower horn and that small dark knot on the back I would be tempted to leave it natural and top it with lacquer for better protection.

Oh well maybe the next one.

Bill

[flatfive]

Nice thread. After finishing a guitar with lacquer last year I decided
to avoid lacquer. It's not good for people! So I've been doing a lot
of finishing scrap with shellac and am doing a guitar body soon.

Bill, you say you're applying lacquer for extra protection. Are you
worried about heat, solvents (like alcohol), dings/scratches, ...?

[Bill Scheltema]

Yes, I guess I am wanting a bit of extra protection, of course I have no real world examples of shellac going through the fire so to speak.

What were you thinking, that it would be fine?

Bill

[Al Watsky]

Shellac moves if it gets hot.
So if you are using the guitar in typical professional situations you may encounter problems.
I like shellac for an undercoat and use a pumice fill on ash and mahogany.
I would overspray with nitro.
Typical fat over thin, finish. Works.
Shellac gets you more depth on clear and trans finishes. Speaking generally. Its thin and light. Unless your using spar varnish which has lots of solids.
I would think that you would be safe with commercially produced Shellac/Varnish as a final coat. Try it and see.
Spirit Varnish/Shellac can be fragile if you sweat a lot. You may stick to it. It happens.

[flatfive]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Yes, I guess I am wanting a bit of extra protection, of course I have no real world examples of shellac going through the fire so to speak.

What were you thinking, that it would be fine?

Bill

Hi Bill. I'm using shellac for the first time, so I can't be sure,
but I've heard a couple people say that the finish feels quite
durable. Here's what Flexner says in his book about shellac
and nitro lacquer (I highly recommend the book):

  
                            shellac        lacquer
                            ------        -------
  water resistance:           2/5           3/5 
  wear resistance:            3/5           3/5
  water vapor
     resistance:              5/5           3/5
  solvent and 
    chemical resistance       1/5           2/5
  heat resistance             1/5           2/5

Shellac is a repairable finish, so if you're finishing your own guitar
you may consider leaving shellac on top, and seeing how it goes.

[Bill Scheltema]

Hi and thanks for the extra shellac info.

Of course the first Tele will be staying with me, and it will stay around the house mostly, so a shellac top coat could do I suppose, I will see how it polishes/rubs out.

Those shellac numbers are not all that far off of the nitro numbers.
Of course in extreme conditions the shellac would break down.

What I am liking about the shellac ( my first time too) is its ease of use and application, low odour and more friendly to my environment.

I will definitely try toning shellac with dyes and see what I can come up with, as well as dyes on straight bare wood.

Thanks,

Bill

[Bill Scheltema]

Oh I forgot to ask,

If toning shellac with a dye, is an alcohol based dye better that a water based powder dye?

Bill

[Big Mike Simpson]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Oh I forgot to ask,

If toning shellac with a dye, is an alcohol based dye better that a water based powder dye?

Bill

Alcohol... that is what shellac flakes are dissolved in.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Oh I forgot to ask,

If toning shellac with a dye, is an alcohol based dye better that a water based powder dye?

Bill

Try TransTint dyes, Bill - - you'll be glad you did. Mixes instantly with your shellac, is easily diluted or intensified. A bottle goes a LONG way.

[Bill Scheltema]

Hi and thanks again guys,

Here is a Canadian source (I'm in Ontario) for dyes I was interested in getting.

They would work, yes?

Bill

[Teleblaster_1]

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

If the grain filling with shellac becomes tedious - - and it can be - - try filling the deeper pits with cyanoacrylate. It's crystal clear, dries fast, and shellac bonds to it like crazy.

THIS sounds like an awesome idea! I'm planning on using shellac as a sanding sealer over w/b stain, then clear coating with urethane.
Any problems that you know of with the urethane going over the krazy glue?

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Hi and thanks again guys,

Here is a Canadian source (I'm in Ontario) for dyes I was interested in getting.

They would work, yes?

Bill

Looks like the right stuff.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Teleblaster_1

THIS sounds like an awesome idea! I'm planning on using shellac as a sanding sealer over w/b stain, then clear coating with urethane.
Any problems that you know of with the urethane going over the krazy glue?

I don't want to step outside of my actual experience, so I'll just say that I've used shellac to seal, then CA to fill pits and grooves, then shellac again, and then wipe-on oil-based poly. And it was slick as glass. Someone here recently mentioned that they'd had a problem with poly over shellac - - don't remember any other specifics. But I've done it a few times and been impressed by the results.

[Teleblaster_1]

I've confirmed the urethane clear will go over the Zinsser just fine, I'm just concerned about a possible cyanoacrylate / urethane negative interaction issue, if known.

Thanks

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Teleblaster_1

I've confirmed the urethane clear will go over the Zinsser just fine, I'm just concerned about a possible cyanoacrylate / urethane negative interaction issue, if known.

Thanks

My understanding is that CA is destructive to both shellac and lacquer only while it is wet. I have seen it melt into shellac, which suited my purpose at the time. Once it has set up, though, it becomes inert.

[Teleblaster_1]

Thanks!
OP- Sorry, did not mean to hijack your thread. I've heard mixed reviews on wb grain filler and this excellent idea saves the day for me!