Frets shellac review

[Bill Scheltema]

As I was surfing I found this article on the frets website reviewing Zissners Bullseye SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer.

Anyways, I was preparing my Mohawk order: Amber, Blonde and a couple cans of Sanding Sealer when (as I usually do) I began to break down my schedule for my body.

Poplar Body-Sealer-Toner-Clear Coat basically.
I know I asked about lacquer sealer on another thread somewhere...
Is there any reason this wouldn't be a worthy product for sanding and sealing?
It saves on fumes and cost I suspect, as long as I can find it.

Here is a pictoral of what I think a common finishing schedule looks like.
If I am wrong let me know, I will adjust and maybe make a running list of visual schedules, I know it helps me to see what the process is.

Bill

[jaydawg]

Yup, Frank Ford is right. Bullseye SealCoat is the bee's knees! I've been using it as a sealer, base coat, barrier coat and stand alone finish for a few years now.

You are right on with your poplar finishing schedule. Use the shellac for the sealer. Then one or two coats of clear lacquer for your buffer coat. Color coat then your clear.

The key, IMO, is to have a PERFECT surface for your color coat. I would do two or three "coat and sand" rounds with the shellac. The last round going real light on the sanding. Then get enough clear lacquer on the body so you can level sand to a nice and smooth surface without going through to the shellac. Once you have your perfect surface do you color coat. (no more sanding) Then your clear coats.

[Bill Scheltema]

Great man,

Would the shellac be tintable?

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

Another thumbs-up for shellac as an undercoat. I usually put in my two cents' worth in favor of mixing your own, but that might just be my own hangup. Zinsser makes good stuff.

I like shellac as both sealer and top coat for maple necks; it's really thin and brings out the grain very nicely.

[jaydawg]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Great man,

Would the shellac be tintable?

Bill

That's a tricky one Bill. Yes it is tintable but it the shellac doesn't go on very evenly. That makes getting an even color coat with shellac very difficult. It can be sprayed as well, which helps get an even coat. But when spraying you need to use VERY thin coat. So there is a whole other set of challenges when spraying toned shellac. I've even tried adding pigments to shellac (that didn't work out very well )!

I you want to keep your life simple, just use it for your sanding sealer.

[westex93]

Yep, good stuff. Just make sure you get the wax-free seal coat and not the stuff they sell as shellac.

Hopefully everyone will follow the link (where Frank explains this) but just so no one makes a mistake:

This is what you want:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72

NOT this:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductId=31

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Great man,

Would the shellac be tintable?

Bill

I have had good results using liquid aniline dyes in light cuts of shellac. However, the tints were meant to be very subtle - - one has to look closely to realize the shellac is tinted. And I've put my tinted shellac over well-cured undercoats. I've never attempted a deep red or blue, for instance.

Just a few drops of burgundy and yellow in a half-pint of 1-pound shellac adds a little warmth and hue to new maple.

[Bill Scheltema]

This is all good news, I can save bucks & fumes by not buying a lacquer sealer rattle can from the Mohawk dealer @ $12.

Bill

[Bill Scheltema]

Hey, I think I found a gallon at a Color your World for $49.
I'll check though for a closer supply.

Bill

[sacizob]

Zissner's Bullseye Amber sprayed over the white Hwy One neck.

[IggyT]

Hi Bill,
Zinsser shellac and sealer in Canada may contain "wax" ...may not be a big deal withrespect to subsequent coats adhering...but some testing would be a good idea on scrap. This fear is why I started doing my sealing with shellac I mixed from flakes.
iggy

[Bill Scheltema]

Westex93 shows the product via a link (see post #6) which states wax free, the color-your-world person also said it was wax free, mind you this was over the phone.
Sometimes sales people are mistaken.

Bill

[westex93]

Yep, which is why I wanted to make sure it was clear which one to get. Some folks have mistakenly got the Bulls Eye shellac, which DOES contain wax. The SealCoat does not.

[EW57]

Originally Posted by sacizob

Zissner's Bullseye Amber sprayed over the white Hwy One neck.

Was this then topcoated with anything? I thought shellac didnt like schwetty hands/moisture.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by EW57

Was this then topcoated with anything? I thought shellac didnt like schwetty hands/moisture.

Fresh de-waxed shellac is far more resilient to moisture than many believe.

[jaydawg]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Westex93 shows the product via a link (see post #6) which states wax free, the color-your-world person also said it was wax free, mind you this was over the phone.
Sometimes sales people are mistaken.

Bill

Just look on the front of the can. If it's the same stuff they sell here then it will say %100 Wax Free.

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

Fresh de-waxed shellac is far more resilient to moisture than many believe.

Do you have any info or evidence to back that up?

[sacizob]

Originally Posted by EW57

Was this then topcoated with anything? I thought shellac didnt like schwetty hands/moisture.

No top coat, just 3 fine coats of the amber shellac.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by jaydawg

Just look on the front of the can. If it's the same stuff they sell here then it will say %100 Wax Free.



Do you have any info or evidence to back that up?

I guess it depends on how hard the evidence has to be. I've been using shellac-only necks for a while now, and I see no reason to stop.

But consider these comments:

http://www.woodworkstuff.net/shellac2.html

You can easily find more of the same around the Internet.

But let's not mislead anyone: if you want to use your Tele as a bar serving tray, you'll soon conclude that some other finish is better suited to the task. Concentrated alcohol will do a job on shellac in pretty short order. On the other hand, if I can turn a garden hose full force on a hard shellac finish for a minute or two without leaving a mark, would that surprise you? That can be done.

[Bill Scheltema]

This is yet another great thread, learning lots.

Thanks for all the input on such a common question I am sure.

I just found another Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat supply near me, so no trouble getting some.
I don't have a spray system, so I will need to wipe on, and advice.
Both my neighbors have small air compressors, I know I could borrow them. I can always buy a small touch-up gun, or order a Preval gun. Hmmm, decisions.

Bill

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

This is yet another great thread, learning lots.

Thanks for all the input on such a common question I am sure.

I just found another Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat supply near me, so no trouble getting some.
I don't have a spray system, so I will need to wipe on, and advice.
Both my neighbors have small air compressors, I know I could borrow them. I can always buy a small touch-up gun, or order a Preval gun. Hmmm, decisions.

Bill

I can tell you that light cuts of shellac spray well from a Preval unit, though I prefer wiping on with linen pads.

[Bill Scheltema]

Connected question.

I will be ordering Mohawk Amber, Blonde toners. While I am at it, I want to order the burst or outer ring toner?? What color should I be looking for anything in a dark brown?

Sorry, couldn't find a Tele example.

No, no, this won't be for my first finishing attempt, just planning ahead, you know how shipping costs are high for this stuff.

Bill

example

[sacizob]

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

I can tell you that light cuts of shellac spray well from a Preval unit, though I prefer wiping on with linen pads.

You can buy a small spray can with a cylinder at the hardware store.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

I can tell you that light cuts of shellac spray well from a Preval unit, though I prefer wiping on with linen pads.

If I ever go back to using shellac on necks, I will try the pads. The thing I found, with the preval or the Shellac in the rattle can (dewaxed) is the film would not always lay flat, and sanding seemed to be called for. I don't like sanding the fretboard face material.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Bill Scheltema

Connected question.

I will be ordering Mohawk Amber, Blonde toners. While I am at it, I want to order the burst or outer ring toner?? What color should I be looking for anything in a dark brown?

I hadn't tried any of my Mohawk color purchases as a conventional sunburst yet.

But since you are ordering (and you gotta make a minimum order of 20 cans, right? I recommend:

Lots of M101-0222 Blonde;

Lots of M115-1129 Maple Ivory Mist;

and some M115-5025 Silk;

You might try the M101-0210 and M101-0240 on that sunburst but I haven't done but a little testing - seems to have promise. So inexpensive next to the Stew Mac stuff.

I strongly discourage you from buying M115-2106 Yellow and M115-3150 Casual Straw. These are more of an optical yellow and their formulations have caused me fits, also.

In my next order I wanna get some of that "Whitewash" color they have, too.

[ChicknPickn]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

If I ever go back to using shellac on necks, I will try the pads. The thing I found, with the preval or the Shellac in the rattle can (dewaxed) is the film would not always lay flat, and sanding seemed to be called for. I don't like sanding the fretboard face material.

Right on.

Shellac was meant to go on thin, in many scant layers. Any unsatisfactory experiences I have had with shellac were the result of applying too much, too fast. When it comes to maple necks, a flat linen pad lightly dampened with very thin solution is the way to go. A 1" pad should be so dry that, even pinching it hard, not more than one fat drop can be pressed out. This way, you don't get pooling around the frets, which is a bummer and a surprisingly difficult problem to fix.

[Bill Scheltema]

I don't know that I can afford 20 cans as $12 a shot.
But I'll look at your list and see what I can swing.
I think that the amber can be used for necks to??

Boris:
What would the Lots of M115-1129 Maple Ivory Mist be used as?

Man, I can hardly wait now to get started. Getting the shellac tomorrow.

Bill

[Bill Scheltema]

Here is what they say about tinting their shellac.

"Tinting – A wide variety of shades and tones can be
achieved by tinting SealCoat with alcohol-base stain, aniline
dye, or small amounts of universal colorants - up to 2 oz. (60
ml) colorant per gallon. Note that alcohol stains will dilute
viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely
disperse dye material and let container sit for a few minutes
for bubbles to clear."

Might be worth a try eh?

Bill

[Shepherd]

Hey Bill those toners are only $7-8 out here, where are you getting them at $12? Have you tried Richelieu in Mississauga?

[Bill Scheltema]

I am getting them from here.

Do you have an address to the Mississauga store, do they sell to the general public?

Bill

[Shepherd]

6420 Viscount Road, 905-672-1500. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/dist...asp?distNbr=76
http://www.richelieu.com/produit/index.php?id=1003370
It looks like you need a business account to order from them but if you call maybe they can give you a list of local distributors. Or you can tint the shellac with Mixol, about $5 each and can pretty much give you any colour you want.

[Bill Scheltema]

Thanks Shepherd,

I am working on it.

Bill

[jaydawg]

Originally Posted by Shepherd

6420 Viscount Road, 905-672-1500. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/dist...asp?distNbr=76
http://www.richelieu.com/produit/index.php?id=1003370
It looks like you need a business account to order from them but if you call maybe they can give you a list of local distributors. Or you can tint the shellac with Mixol, about $5 each and can pretty much give you any colour you want.

Those are not what you want. They are pigments, you want a stain.

(Don't ask how I know pigments don't work. )

[ChicknPickn]

This is the stuff I use.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm

[Shepherd]

"Mixol Universal Tints are the most concentrated, highest quality tints on the market today. They are compatible with most water, solvent, lacquer and oil based stains, coatings, shellacs, epoxies, waxes, varnishes, wood fillers, etc... "

I haven't had any problems with them.

[jaydawg]

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

This is the stuff I use.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm

Thats what I would go with. Transtints work well.

Originally Posted by Shepherd

"Mixol Universal Tints are the most concentrated, highest quality tints on the market today. They are compatible with most water, solvent, lacquer and oil based stains, coatings, shellacs, epoxies, waxes, varnishes, wood fillers, etc... "

I haven't had any problems with them.

I spent some time using them to tint shellac in an effort to come up with a butterscotch type of finish. I wasn't happy at all with the way they worked with shellac.

How have you use them with shellac? If you have a method I would love to hear it.

[Bill Scheltema]

Okay, now that I have my Mohawk aerasol toned lacquer supplier locked down, I want to fine tune the colors for bursts, when I place my order I want to add it in for future builds while I'm at it.

Shepherd,
The colors you suggested don't seem dark enough.
Will a deep red mahogany be ok or
M115-1613 Newport Ebonized Cherry maybe?
M115-2809 Studio One Black

Have a look at this chart and suggest away, please.

Bill

[Shepherd]

I didn't suggest any colors, but if your talking about that two tone sunburst it's a dark brown, almost black. None of those toners look dark enough so you might have to try a few and experiment. You have to practice a bit with toners cause they can go on a bit spotty. I've kind of strayed from using toners and tend to mix my own colors. I use the ultra penetrating stains to tint the lacquer, same as trans tint I guess. About $18 per quart and it goes a long way. I've got some of the colonial maple and its very dark, closer to the brown mahogany so you can see how far off those samples are. If you plan on doing more finishing, borrow your neighbors compressor and get a $30 touch up gun. Way more control and it opens up a world of possibilities.

The Mixol works best if you mix it with whatever solvent is used in the finish. So with shellac just premix it with some alcohol.

[Bill Scheltema]

Thanks Shepherd,

I thought you were suggesting the M101-0210 and M101-0240 for the burst must have misunderstood.

I think I will send an email with a couple of shots of what I am looking for, maybe they have some ideas.

Bill

[Shepherd]

Just remember that those are stains meant to be applied to the wood, they will have a different effect and coloring if you use them as tints. You should get the Stewmac finishing book, tons of info and six pages of stain samples using different mixes.