Stain advice needed!

[ghosttour]

I'm considering staining an alder body. This will be the first time I've stained a body. From what I've read thus far, alder does not need to be grain-filled if the grain is tight enough. The schedule I'm considering based on my research here, at Stewmac and Reranch is:

Stain
Sanding sealer
Stain
Clear coat

I'm going for a more organic look, but I still want the finish to appear professional. Can I use oil or wax as the top coat over stain with good results?

[ghosttour]

Anyone?

[jimd]

I'm no expert on stain, so take it with that disclaimer. First, Alder shouldn't need to be grain filled. Your process looks good to me. That is what I am doing with a Strat body right now. Be aware that when you sand that sanding sealer down you will take some of the stain off. Make sure you have enough stain (if you mix it) to redo those spots. I have sanded and restained several times. Go easy on the sanding, use a fine grit paper.

[ghosttour]

Thanks Jim! Yep, everything I can find seems to point towards no need for sealer. I'm doing some tests on scrap wood but wanted to get some thoughts here as I'm getting different info from different sources.

Any suggestions on what to use for a final protective coat would be greatly appreciated. Tung Oil? Tru Oil? Paste wax? Beeswax?

[Wally]

Ghost, I finish in themanner of old Fender and Gibson finishes. THat is, I don't stain. Once you stain a piece of wood, that is it for that wood. IF you want a different color, you have to cover that stain with an opaque finish. When you are looking at Fender and Gibson guitars, you are looking at guitars that have unstained wood. THe color is in the finish. What is called 'stain' in your post above from the STew MAc and REranch info is in fact a colored lacquer or poly coat that can be removed down to uncolored wood in the future if you want or need.

[ghosttour]

Originally Posted by Wally

What is called 'stain' in your post above from the STew MAc and REranch info is in fact a colored lacquer or poly coat that can be removed down to uncolored wood in the future if you want or need.

Hmm... yes, I see.

[Wally]

Yeah, I don't know why they want to confuse the issue. STew Mac definitely knows the difference. They have published videos showing how to do the vintage stain on mandolins. There is a reason to use stains on fine acoustic instruments since one can use less finish buildup that way and keep the wood freer from the restrictions of thicker coatings. I guess they are just using the term 'stain' because it is quicker and easier to write than 'pigment colored lacquer/poly'.

[ghosttour]

Originally Posted by Wally

I guess they are just using the term 'stain' because it is quicker and easier to write than 'pigment colored lacquer/poly'.

Ha! It certainly is. IN this case, I don't expect I'll ever want to take off the stain to refinish the guitar. Any recommendations on what to use to seal and protect the stain?

[Wally]

Well, since I don't understand the 'stain,seal,stain,clear' coat system described above; I will leave it to Stew Mac or RERanch to fill in the blanks.
I finish in the method of Gibson or vintage fenders....washcoat on open pores, fill open pores(skip these two steps on close pore wood), sanding sealer, color coats, clear coats.
If I were going to stain...sanding to finish quality, stain, clear coats of lacquer....or French polishing with shellac. The French polishing is the best way to apply the least amount of finish with the best results.....great for fine acoustic instruments. This woudl be the only reason I would stain.
Some folks around the TDPRI like to stain and then use tung oil. I prefer nitro lacquer for vintage Gibson or Fender type results.

[Tone Seeker]

Originally Posted by Wally

Some folks around the TDPRI like to stain and then use tung oil. I prefer nitro lacquer for vintage Gibson or Fender type results.

I'm considering both methods. Can you describe in more detail why you prefer nitro?

Many thanks.

Terry.

[jimd]

Originally Posted by ghosttour

Thanks Jim! Yep, everything I can find seems to point towards no need for sealer. I'm doing some tests on scrap wood but wanted to get some thoughts here as I'm getting different info from different sources.

Any suggestions on what to use for a final protective coat would be greatly appreciated. Tung Oil? Tru Oil? Paste wax? Beeswax?

You don't need grain filler. You do need sanding sealer. I think you know that, but just wanted to make sure.

As far as a clear coat, that is really based on your taste. If you want a deep glossy finish, you need to go with nitro lacquer. As far as the others go, I can't really say. But all have been done by people on this forum. Do a search and see if you like their results.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Tone Seeker

I'm considering both methods. Can you describe in more detail why you prefer nitro?

Many thanks.

Terry.

I grew up with nitro finished guitars.....it looks 'right' to me, it feels 'right' to me, it ages 'right' to me. I have sprayed with acrylic lacquer and catalyzed paints, also. I prefer nitro.
jimd, if one is going to stain the wood, why would one need sanding sealer. STainit, shoot clear and finish it out. Imo, sanding sealer is needed only if one is going to shoot color. The sealer is there to separate the color from the wood. After all, sealer is simply lacquer with more particylate matter...solids..than finish coat. That is why the system that is laid out in the first post puzzles me. IF you are staining, you don't have to protect the wood from the color. You have already colored the wood. Unless, of course, you areplanning on staining and then shooting a different color. In that case, I can see why you would need to seal in between the staining and the color coats. IF I were to stain, I would only need to shoot clear coats after staining. YEs, I would have to be careful not to go through the clear coats into the stain, but that is a necessary precaution even if you spray color coats before the clear coats.

[jimd]

I would do sanding sealer to fill in the pores and get a smooth surface to start the clear on. The sealer has more solids and will build up in the low spots quicker. For an alder body you could skip it, but you would need a lot more clear if you want a perfectly smooth surface.

[ghosttour]

Originally Posted by jimd

I would do sanding sealer to fill in the pores and get a smooth surface to start the clear on.

That's what I was thinking, too.

[Wally]

I can see that. My thought is that when using a staining process, one either a) going for a very fine finish as on fine acoustics which in my book would preclude the heavier sanding sealer and when prep sanding has eliminated the need for heavy soilds, or b) looking to use a tung type of finish.
As noted, alder does need pore filling.

[boris bubbanov]

I've done 4 USA Custom Guitar one piece alder bodies, plus a few alders with a maple or special wood cap on them.

Prior to the clear nitro, I like to apply shellac. Shellac will fill the wood so it will finish level. And nitro adheres very well to it. Shellac dries and can be blocked in very short intervals of time. Now, it would be easy to add some tint to the shellac to trend the color this way or that. I didn't need to do that because I was real choosy about the color and appearance of the air dried alder I started with. But, in terms of Bartley's or Pore O Pac, not needed at all. The shellac has no UV stabilizers in it, so it will amber and that should be plenty of color. You gotta be careful, stain might totally overwhelm most pieces of alder, creating a monochrome look and that IMO negates its purpose.





The first image basically represents the guitar today; the second image is as when the guitar was first finished.

[Wally]

Shellac and nitro sanding sealer...very similar results.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Wally

Shellac and nitro sanding sealer...very similar results.

Yup.

I've gone the shellac route in large part because alcohol won't hurt you like these other solvents will, in my estimation.

Drives my Dad nuts. He's going on: "you know what a crummy finish shellac is, so why?" and I say, "yes Dad". He's always got model airplane fuel atomized everywhere and that melts the shellac, "poof", no time.

The guitar I gave him is poly, you betcha.

[ghosttour]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

You gotta be careful, stain might totally overwhelm most pieces of alder, creating a monochrome look and that IMO negates its purpose.

Thanks Boris - I'm testing on some scrap now to see what looks best. Monochrome BAD!

[Cosmic]

Don't mean to thread jack, but just have one quick question on clear colored finishes: If one wanted a color other than traditional 'natural' wood finish (such as blue, for example) that you can see the grain through, how does one achieve that effect? I'm asking this in a staining thread because that seems to be really what it is. I made an end table a while back out of pine and basically painted it green, wiping the paint off as I went, so it soaked into the grain and produced a stain-llike effect, and poly'ed over the top. Is that how clear colors are done on guitars as well?