Is Squier becoming the Standard Of Excelence Within Fender ?

[Cooper]

This is an awesome thread.

I make my living selling guitars. This issue is a big deal for me, because for the first time I'm unable to tell customers that "you get what you pay for." When I bought my MIA Tele in 2002, that was true. It's not anymore.

Everything is relative, and I am not saying that the CV series is better than MIA/Vintage Reissue/CS. But for THE AVERAGE PERSON, it is certainly a better value.

I have the MIA tele and a CV50. I love them both. Currently trying to sell the MIA. It's an amazing guitar, but it's worth more in money than it is in my hands as an instrument. Is there a difference? Of course. Can I PLAY the difference? No. Someone with more talent or a more demanding use (pro musicians) might feel differently.

Furthermore, when you're receiving guitars straight from the manufacturer, the "glow" of the expensive gear fades pretty quick. I will never understand people who have access to local instruments and buy their guitars online. Easily HALF the guitars need real work. And I'm talking about high end Fenders. In fact, the Squiers probably have a better chance of passing that initial inspection than the Fender branded instruments.

I've yet to see a CS piece that really thrilled me. There was a Nocaster a few years back that I liked a lot, but not nearly enough to drop that kind of cash. Most of the American Standard guitars these days are lackluster. The Am. Deluxe are almost always amazing. The American Specials and HWY 1 guitars are awesome as well.

I have yet to meet a CV Tele or Strat that I would not have purchased if I'd been in the market for one. They are all top notch.

Just one informed opinion.

[waffle waitress]

I think the key thing here that a few people have nailed is this...the cheap guitars do not stand up at gig volume.

I have owned 2 MIM telecasters (Esquire and a 60's classic) - both had nice necks and played nice...they sound great at home or while your playing by your self. I used to try and use the MIM guitars as backup (I play vintage guitars mostly) and while playing w/the band they would just drive me crazy w/the lack of tone when you try and crank up a bit and use any overdrive...they just fold. Didn't work for me at all.

I have played the CV series...I was impressed. Didn't like the Tele necks...liked the Strat necks...way too much poly...pretty amazing guitars for the money. I would think they are about the same as the MIM I had. As nice as a CS? No way. Huge difference.

[weezy109]

Originally Posted by waffle waitress

I think the key thing here that a few people have nailed is this...the cheap guitars do not stand up at gig volume.

I have owned 2 MIM telecasters (Esquire and a 60's classic) - both had nice necks and played nice...they sound great at home or while your playing by your self. I used to try and use the MIM guitars as backup (I play vintage guitars mostly) and while playing w/the band they would just drive me crazy w/the lack of tone when you try and crank up a bit and use any overdrive...they just fold. Didn't work for me at all.

I have played the CV series...I was impressed. Didn't like the Tele necks...liked the Strat necks...way too much poly...pretty amazing guitars for the money. I would think they are about the same as the MIM I had. As nice as a CS? No way. Huge difference.

Rewire them and change out the hardware and id put em up against any other guitar as far as them being gig worthy. Are they perfect and fit you to every detail? Well they certainly won't be perfect for everyone. They are just wood how can they "fold". Many great guitarists played with cheap guitars on bigger stages than most anyone on this forum will ever see so i don't find your claim to be true

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by Racer5

American manufacturing? Eh, what's the saying, MIM is made by mexicans in mexico, and MIA is made by mexicans a couple hundred miles north of them?

It annoys me when someone tries to insinuate that there's some kind of racism or or nationality prejudice against the factory workers in the different plants. So if you say you don't like Squiers or MIMs, people imply you must be a racist.

It's not the people who put them together, it's the way Fender specs the guitars made in different plants. The wood quality, the hardware and electronics, etc. that makes them different...superior or inferior.

It's not because the people who work in the factories are Mexican, Chinese or Martians.

Sheesh, I get sick of this straw man argument.

[Sollophonic]

Originally Posted by weezy109

Rewire them and change out the hardware and id put em up against any other guitar as far as them being gig worthy. Are they perfect and fit you to every detail? Well they certainly won't be perfect for everyone. They are just wood how can they "fold". Many great guitarists played with cheap guitars on bigger stages than most anyone on this forum will ever see so i don't find your claim to be true

+1 on this.

Its funny now we have forums where we can discuss this it seems to be more of an issue.

Think of the players from the past who used stock Fenders. Off the shelf, production models, didnt change pickups or anything. There werent the range of drop in aftermarket parts, people took parts out of other makes of guitars to get their sound, or they got their sound by leaving them stock.

MIMs and CV Squiers are certainly giggable. I would say they are without that many mods if any.

There are many players on here who gig Squiers regularly. And who gig MIMs.

I'm one of them too.

[howardlo]

I have to agree with Cooper.

Are the Fender CS guitars better than Squire's top of the line? I would certainly hope so for the cost differential. Would that translate into anything useable for me, playing just at home or in very small venues now, for fun only. Probably not.

I have been playing for over 50 years and have owned a lot of guitars during that time. I wish my playing level showed that 50 plus years of playing.

I took my modded Squire SE to a friends house a month ago to jam a little. Hadn't seen him since high school. He has a room full of top-of-the line Fenders and other brand guitars. That made me wonder what he would think of my Squire. After playing for an hour or so, he asked to try my guitar. He played and played it, then said, "That is a great strat." He went into the closet and pulled out a early 90's MIM Fender and asked if I could make that one play and sound like mine. I took it home, modded it with the same parts I had put in my Squire.

When he stopped by to pick it up a couple weeks ago, and tried it out, he was a very happy guy.

Now I got my Squire cheap at a pawn shop and modded it, for a total of $200. The MIA Fenders go for about $1000. Is it going to be 5 times the guitar? Probably not, at least to me. I am retired and on a fixed income. Playing guitar and home recording are my main wintertime hobbies and entertainment.

Now the Fender CS models are way more expensive than the MIAs, for that amount it seems that they should not only play better, but it seems they should play themselves.

I can only see the reasoning for those high cost guitars if that is how a person earns his living, just as any trade would have the best tools available for their job. In the music field the high profile people don't even pay for their instruments anyway, so there is no cost to consider.

Just my humble oipinions.

[Mark Davis]

Ive owned 30 new Fender guitars some CS some AV series 15 MIM's a few MIJ's and my CV's CV50's and CVC both have better fretwork fit and finish than anyother Fenders Ive owned.

Im not saying they sound better than some of the more expensive Fenders Ive owned but the fit finish and fretwork is outstanding.

[stratdragon92]

The new CV's are nice guitars. I don't care where it was made, I don't care how much it cost, and I don't care what kind of sticker is on the headstock because it's such a great guitar for the money. Every CV guitar I've played has been awesome. But then again I've noticed a big improvement in quality across the board in all Fenders. I recently bought home a CV60 Strat without prior permission from the boss. I knew I would catch some heat for it, but I knew it would be one of those guitars I that I would regret not buying. It was set up perfect, the fretwork was awesome and it sounded great. I played a bunch of guitars that night and had it in my head when I went into the store that if I found the right MIA or Roadworn guitar I was walking out with it no matter what.

I A/b'd it against my MIM Classic 60's Strat with Custom Shop 69 pickups. The build quality is equal. The MIM has the edge in hardware though and the sound is a little more complex and full. The 60's neck is also a nice chunky C that really fills my hand. The CV neck is a little on the thin side for me but the flatter fretboard and bigger frets make it a little bit quicker to play. So I'd give the very very slight edge to the MIM. Then again it's also a 700 dollar guitar with 150 dollar pickups in it. So for a 350 dollar guitar the Squier is looking pretty good.

If they'd make a CV Strat with a thicker neck I'd be all over it.

As far as custom shop vs cv I don't really think it's a fair comparison. To me it's like comparing a Hyundai to a BMW. I love my Hundy, it gets it's job done. It goes when I want and it stops when I want, and it does it for a lot less than a BMW. For what it is it's a great car but it's no BMW.

So for what they are CV's are a great guitar but they're no Custom Shop. When you get as crazy about guitars as most of us are you really start sweating the details. So when I finally save up the money and convince the wife that a guitar can be worth thousand I'm getting a CS guitar. That being said I'm eyeballing a CV50 Strat and maybe the CV Thinline.

[ac15]

I have one Squier Tele, a Vintage Modified Thinline, and it's a lousy guitar that looks cool. I bought it only because I was out of town on vacation and needed a cheap guitar to play that I wouldn't worry about if it was broken by luggage handlers.

That guitar doesn't stay in tune, and sounds bad no matter what pickups I put in it.

I wish it sounded and played as good as it looks.

So no, Squiers are not as awesome as the better Fenders based on my experience.

....and my Custom Shop Tele is awesome, even for the money.

[PJ]

I think Fender's playing a bit of catch-up. Epiphone's been making high-quality, low-price point guitars in their China factory for a few years now, having graduated from purchase agreements with independent manufacturers to their own facility. And, Fender realizes they need to do the same. Since guitars are still largely hand assembled, it's that additional labor cost they're chasing out of their product cost. To be able to do it, as Squier has, with a high-quality product, using a partner-factory, is certainly an achievement. Not sure it's the new standard of excellence, but it is a huge step-forward for Fender, who still makes most of its models on the North American continent. I think all of Fender's guitars are made well. And, sure - many (like other makes) need some tweaks out of the box. But, I agree - Fender deserves a lot of credit for kicking-up those bare-wood neck, poorly executed Squiers of the past decade. I'd never have taken one of those off the rack in the store, let alone buy one. Now, I own two Squiers. I can only presume this new product strategy has translated into higher volume sales and increased market share - something all public corporations strive for.

[musicalmartin]

Originally Posted by skrewflanders

I completely disagree, respecfully of course.
I've played and owned more than my share of squires (affinity and standard, strats and pbasses mostly) over the years, and while they have definately improved in quality over the years and are better than they've ever been, they ,IMHO, are nowhere near what a MIM fender is or has been.

Must disagree with that .My CV Simon Neil strat is as good an MIM to play and hear .It of course misses that very important Logotone we all pay so much for .Its only the CV series though .I played a VM jaguar and it was not to the same standard at least for me .

[xagyg]

One could say that the Squier series is a very good marketing strategy, with respect to being able to bring out slightly modified designs that may not be quite Fenderesque. For example, the thin necks on the Squiers. Some people will much prefer the thin necks on the Squiers, and of course others will prefer the chunkier neck of the Fender ... so now there is a neck for everyone. The quality of the CVs is excellent. I have been trying to work out which Tele is better, the CV50 or the Classic 50 - when I have realised that they are just different - with different sound (both excellent). However, I must say that the finish on the body of the Classic 50 is very nice.

(I realise that the Squier brand can also be confusing to people - e.g. is it a Fender?)

BTW, off topic a bit, but I realised why some CV50s appear yellow and others cream coloured. It depends on how thick they paint on the poly. The one I ordered online looks like pale yellow (almost no grain showing). The one I saw in a shop today was only yellow around the edge. On the front and back, it was an off-white colour with a very noticeable grain (hence, thinly painted on front and back).

[Skub]

Originally Posted by waffle waitress

I think the key thing here that a few people have nailed is this...the cheap guitars do not stand up at gig volume.

I'd best leave my cheap (unmodded) Telecaster custom 2 at home from now on then.

[iblastoff]

I think people just like to boast about new purchases. Who doesn't?

First of all I've been in touring bands for the past decade (ranging from 30 people punk basement shows to festivals around 10,000 in attendance) and never have I seen a single artist we played with pull out a squier to play live with.

At first I was ecstatic about my sx stl ash guitar. Looked amazing. Only costed $100 although if I give that silly "7 to 1" china ratio exchange excuse I guess i would say this guitar is *really* worth $600 and up (which is total BS). I thought i had gotten one of the best deals ever and scoffed at others who paid insanely more for a "real" tele. Now it's nothing more than a practice guitar that I'm willing to learn hardware upgrading on. Why? Unless I got a complete lemon, the frets on this thing are horrid. Major fret sprouting issues and uneven heights. All of the screws on this thing aren't even close to being screwed in straight. The pickguard edges around the neck look completely unfinished and seem to just be ripped into place. The neck set isn't flush with the body. The saddle adjustment screws stripped the moment I tried moving them.

All of these things I willingly overlooked due to the honeymoon period and convincing myself there was "magic" in this cheap guitar.

It's like those "what's the best amp/tele whatever threads" and while some obviously have more educated views/wider opportunity to properly gauge their viewpoint, usually people just post the one or two things they actually own.

And that Toyota/Honda Vs american car analogy was horrid. Have you seen the cars china has been trying to introduce to the market? Absolutely horrible.

[Cooper]

People gig with cheap guitars all the time. A lot of folks don't understand that there is an upper tier of guitar buyers that think MIA Fenders are cheap guitars. I can't tell you how many people have come into my store, where we don't sell Gibsons, and complained about Fender's "crappy, bolted-together guitars." And I had a customer the other day who wouldn't even look at our Fenders, because we didn't have any CS guitars at the moment. "Don't want to waste my time with anything else."

The Squier/Fender thing is a marketing strategy. There is a type of customer to whom I can't even mention a CV Tele/Strat, because they want a "real Fender." That's fine; I love my Fender. But when I bought it, I was suffering from the same wrong-headed notion that getting the "real thing" would somehow make me a better player, or a successful musician.

...the cheap guitars do not stand up at gig volume...they just fold.

Out of the box, I'd tend to agree. If modding guitars was illegal, I would certainly never gig with anything less than an American Special. That's where the stock pickups and hardware meet my needs. My CV50's pickups are amazing, but the hardware is lacking. The MIM guitars have solid hardware, but I find the pickups lifeless.

Still, if I had a backup guitar, I'd take the CV to a gig.

Now, introduce the ability to mod guitars, and the CV becomes just as much guitar with an additional $25 of jacks and pots. The good thing for salesmen like me is that most people can't/won't use a soldering iron . . .

[Oster]

Squier has always turned out good product. The original Japanese Squiers that came out 30 years ago were amazing instruments. To say that "Squier is becoming the Standard Of Excelence" indicates that this thread is mainly a tie-in to the CV fad (and I do think it's a fad, internet generated).

The Japanese were/are better at making electric guitars than other far east nations because they had a pop music and electric guitar culture of their own. If you don't think this is hugely significant to superior guitar building, you aren't seeing the bigger picture.

Whenever I see someone claim that all a guitar needs is a pickup swap to make things right, I know that they don't know guitars.

The Standard of excellence for Fender remains their US made instruments. There are a multitude of reasons for this (some I've hinted at). I've yet to see a chinese made guitar that doesn't feel like a prop guitar. Feel is important. I pick up a new American Standard and I know right away I'm holding a guitar.

You can make great music on just about any guitar but that's not what we're talking about. If we're talking about 'Standards of Excellence' what I look for is feel & sound, looks are second.

When someone cites a minor finish blem as proof of some lagging of American quality, I have to shake my head. Pick up a vintage Gretsch (by way of an obvious example) sometime and have fun pointing out all the inconsistencies compared to a new one. Give me the human-being built vibe-rich original everytime. If it didn't matter to George Harrison it shouldn't matter to you.

I think it's important to feel proud of one's guitars and it's human nature to extend that pride into a little meglomania, it's also human nature to have a little of the ol' fox and grapes syndrome (the poor fox can't reach the grapes but decides they were probably sour anyway - know the fable?)

To recap: Squier hasn't suddenly started making good guitars, the brand was great right out the door 30 years ago with some significant dips and rises in quality ever since. Nonetheless, they have always been Fender's budget alternative and the top quality Fenders are still, and have always been the US made.

I don't have an agenda I just love guitars - in particular Fenders - I've played and owned them for years...all kinds: budget, top-of-the-line. You get what you pay for. Simple but 100% true.

[xagyg]

Originally Posted by Oster

To say that "Squier is becoming the Standard Of Excelence" indicates that this thread is mainly a tie-in to the CV fad (and I do think it's a fad, internet generated).

CVC, CV50, Thinline - played them all - love them all. I'm happy to ride the fad wave. Enjoying it a lot.

I saw this Standard Squier in the store yesterday and liked the colour combo.

http://www.squierguitars.com/product...tno=0321200507

Didn't play it though. I don't think I can get away from the Classic Vibes though. They mesmerize me - easy to play, sound good, mostly good quality (try before you buy), nice.

[Cooper]

Why did you buy a Fender? Some folks might walk into a shop and play all the guitars and just like the Fenders more, but most shoppers have at least heard the name and know of the reputation. We see our favorite rock heros playing them. We are aware of the Fender mystique.

But consider this (all numbers completely made up, but probably good estimates):

Total population: 100%
People who like music: 95%
People who go out and see live music: 60%
People who play a musical instrument: 30%
People who SERIOUSLY play a musical instrument: 10%
People who PROFESSIONALLY play a musical instrument: 1% (at most)

Now, of that ONE PERCENT, consider this:
People who play guitar: 50%
People who play electric guitar: 25%
People who play Fender style electrics: 15%
People who play Fender style electrics and know/care enough to customize the instrument: 5%

So companies like Fender, Glendale, All Parts, Seymour Duncan, and on and on, are all compete for the 0.05 percent of the total population that appreciates a customized instrument.

Where am I going with all of this? Well, Charmin toilet paper competes for 100% of the population. We are all daily consumers of their product. When was the last time you bought custom shop toilet paper?

It makes strong business sense for FMIC to make the Squier line phenomenal. The Custom Shop guitars SUPPORT THE MYSTIQUE THAT SELLS THE SQUIRE GUITARS. For every lawyer/doctor/rockstar that comes in and buys a Custom Shop, TEN weekend warriors buy a guitar they can afford and can use to make money. And for every one of those professionals, TEN MORE kids come in with their parents and buy a Squier to learn on.

So, from a business standpoint, the "standard of excellence" had better be with the lower cost instruments, because that's where the competition is. When you start paying automobile-type sums for a musical instrument, it's a given that the quality will be top notch, from any manufacturer. It's down there in the $100-$400 range that the heat is on and the money is made.

[Skub]

A well written and reasoned set of posts on this thread Cooper.

[Dave Hopping]

Again,the pro-Squier folks point out that their fave is a terrific bargain.It is,partly because manufacturing technology is so improved that a machine can replicate everything except mojo.But mostly because offshore manufacturing pays sweatshop wages,and offshore manufacturers need not pay the environmental and socially based costs US manufacturers do,which are passed through to end-users.If the offshores WERE required to meet US environmental,health,and labor regulations and pass those costs through,what they sell would be much more realistically and much less attractively priced.
One notes that Fender and Gibson did NOT contract for offshore manufacturing in Northern Europe,Scandinavia,Great Britain,Canada,or Australia.The costs of labor and regulation are just too high in those countries.Enthusiasm for Squier instruments in those places is also high.