Why do I not like my Guv'nor?

[rolilohse]

Hi all,

I recently fixed the switch in my vintage "Made in England" Guv'nor (after I suspended the pedal for nearly 15 years). The old Guv'nors seem to have a lot of friends but: I do not like mine and I never liked it - that is the reason why fixing the switch took that long .

The pedal sounds thin, boxy has fizzeling highs and almost no bass. I compared it to many other OD pedals (TS, OCD, RAT SD-1) and no other pedal sounds as thin as the Marshall. As many people like their Guv'nor I ask myself if there is something wrong only with mine or do all of these pedals sound like AM radio?

Any ideas?

Roland

[trailboss]

Twenty years ago I thought mine sounded great. Of course I was playing thru a 150 watt bass head and Marshall 4x12 bottom. So, basically I had a ton of lows EQ'd in and always had the distortion on, so I never noticed the funny tone. Fast forward to today, I play alot of clean stuff and when i pulled "old faithful" out of the gigbag (after a long haitus) I noticed it has no lows whatsoever. The highs can be tweaked to an acceptable level-especially with the harmonic feedback-but I swear there is a lowcut filter somewhere in this thing. Either that or it has crapped out after sitting unused for 15 years or so.

[rolilohse]

Originally Posted by trailboss

Twenty years ago I thought mine sounded great. Of course I was playing thru a 150 watt bass head and Marshall 4x12 bottom. So, basically I had a ton of lows EQ'd in and always had the distortion on, so I never noticed the funny tone.

I also bought mine 20 years ago and played it through a Hiwatt DR 103 and a 2204 Marshall - even with that setup it sounded really fizzy.

Originally Posted by trailboss

I swear there is a lowcut filter somewhere in this thing.

For sure there is a lowcut filter in this pedal - but every dirt pedal has at least one ...

Roland

[brookdalebill]

Try a Durham Mucho Boosto.
It has medium gain, but more than a TS 808 or TS 9.
I like it because it lets your guitars fundamental tone shine through.
Lots of overdrive pedals make everything you play through them sound the same.

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by trailboss

I swear there is a lowcut filter somewhere in this thing.

Yes - it's the 2.2K/.1uF pairing in the first gain stage. This is where all of the bass is disappearing.

The high pass filter is set about the same as a Tube Screamer with the Guv'nor - it starts rolling off bass below ~724 Hz.

If the distortion is in excess of what you would use with it set to maximum, the easiest thing to do would be to start increasing the 2.2K resistor. The following common resistance values will give you these different HP filters:

2.7K - 590 Hz

3.3K - 483 Hz

3.9K - 408 Hz

4.7K - 339 Hz

...Most users will probably experience too much of a gain loss with the two highest resistor values. Another alternative would be to replace the stock 2.2K resistor with a 5K or 10K trimpot, and adjust it to taste.

If you find yourself using the pedal with it dimed, then you will want to start increasing the .1uF capacitor. Since sometimes values such as .12uF or .15uF may give you the sweet spot, you may want to consider bypassing the stock cap with a .022uF or .047uF capacitor.

...You can either remove the stock cap and run two temporary wires to it's place and try different bigger caps, or take something like a 50K pot or so and wire a really big cap in series with the pot. You then connect both of these components in parallel to the stock cap. As the resistance of the pot decreases, you get incrementally more bass back (less cut) - this is how the bass cut control on the Timmy/Tim pedals works.

If you pretty much leave the pedal at a single setting, it would probably be worth the trouble to find the optimal resistor or cap values, or possibly use trimpots that would require only moderate aggravation to adjust.

Just bear in mind that pedals like the Rat have a HP filter that lets bass pass all the way down to 60 Hz, and you are going to get a ton of intermodulation if you try to do the same thing with the Guv'nor, IMO. I personally like to set that filter at around 400 Hz to 500 Hz, but it's really subjective.

[rolilohse]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

Yes - it's the 2.2K/.1uF pairing in the first gain stage. This is where all of the bass is disappearing.

The high pass filter is set about the same as a Tube Screamer with the Guv'nor - it starts rolling off bass below ~724 Hz.

Right, calculating the corner frequency for the 0.047µF/4k7 pair leads to almost the same frequncy: 720 Hz. So in theory the Guv'nor and the TS should have a similar amount of bass. If the Guv'nor sounds the same basswise I would not complain. But a TS has lots of bass compared to the Guv'nor. So where's the bass?

Roland

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by rolilohse

But a TS has lots of bass compared to the Guv'nor. So where's the bass?

You're only perceiving more bass with a TS because the overall frequency spectrum is different. That is the effect of the Guv'nor's tone circuit, which is subtractive, since it is passive. The TS doesn't suffer from that, since the tone control either narrows things down to the midband primarily, or actually boosts the high frequencies.

...There's also the issue of compression/limiting. A TS uses diode clipping in the first gain stage feedback loop. The waveform gets clipped at the total voltage available by the op amp. The Guv'nor uses hard clipping to ground after the second gain stage, where you are getting robbed of about 30% of your max signal. The LED's lessen this impact to the "tips" of the waveform, but the type of limiting in the two pedals is immutable.

If you can get the high pass of the pre-boosted signal in the Guv'nor down to 500 Hz or lower, you should perceive a great jump in bass content. Once you drop below 400 Hz, things can get especially "boomy" sounding. It's not again until you get under 120 Hz or so that the bass becomes more subsonic and less aurally overt.

A stock Big Muff has the bass side of the blender tone control at around 400 Hz, just to give you an example of perceived bass. The Rat and OCD are both under 100 Hz (OCD has HP filter of ~40 Hz at the 2nd gain stage).

...Also, a TS restricts the frequency content to mainly ~360 Hz and lower, when the tone control is fully counterclockwise, which will also enhance this perception.

[rolilohse]

11 Gauge,

thanks a lot for your explanation, things are now much clearer for me. I ask myself now if I should modify a 20 year old pedal or if I should buy a cheap SD-1 and mod this pedal to my taste. I think the latter one makes more sense (and more fun, I hope).

Roland

[JohnnyCrash]

I generally use bottom heavy amps. I also like my Guvnor clone for one main reason - it's flexibility (due to the tonestack). That said, its not my "go to" pedal, but it is on a separate pedalboard for "grab and go" type stuff when I'm not sure what kind of sounds I'll need. It helps tame my 5E3's rumble and woof, it helps brighten my Vox AC30 clone's dark Normal channel without getting that thin, fizzy AC30 phase inverter tone affecting things too much.

I think now though, I would like to mod mine for more bottom too...

I'd check eBay for how much old Guvnors are going for and then figure if you want to mod it or sell it

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I think now though, I would like to mod mine for more bottom too...

Just keep it to modding the initial HP filter, incrementally dropping the HP freq. You'll know when you've hit the sweet spot pretty quickly, in most instances.

But JC - you're building a Rat, which has bottom end to spare (with a very different texture, as well). The two together compliment each other very well, IMO. They each occupy a very different space.

I actually like a Guv for either rhythm chores where you don't want all of that rumble - the design cuts very well. And for leads it cuts very well too, since there isn't any of the potential super compression or loose low end that come with the more hypertrophic high gainers.

The problem IMO with adding lots of bass to a distortion pedal is that they have the potential to suffer from "Metal Zone Syndrome," which reduces most of them to bedroom boxes, IMO...

[11 Gauge]

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

Yes - it's the 2.2K/.1uF pairing in the first gain stage. This is where all of the bass is disappearing.

The high pass filter is set about the same as a Tube Screamer with the Guv'nor - it starts rolling off bass below ~724 Hz.

Just as an FYI, I got around to modifying my Guv'nor-ish clone today, and I dropped the HP filter down to 160 Hz, and it sounds pretty good, even at relatively higher gain settings, IMO. It's not flubby like I thought it would be, even through a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb.

I'm running a 1K/1uF setup, so there's tons of gain on tap. If you're going to try this, I recommend a good film type cap - no electrolytics or tantalums.

If you don't need that much gain, then all of the equivalents s/b good, i.e. 2.2K/.45uF, 4.7K/.22uF, etc.

[callaway]

Glad you've got it sounding more suitable for your uses.

I think the Shredmaster was their more bottom-heavy pedal. I made one from scratch after hearing my friend's real one, and I absolutely love it. I actually like it most for lower-to-mid gain. It's nice and meaty.