How important is it to "feel" the Sound?

[Brent Hutto]

When you're playing an electric bass, how important is feeling the vibration in your hands and belly? I've been looking in the guitar shops for a cheapo bass to play around with and after trying a couple dozen of them I realized that the two I liked best (one cheap, one not) actually happened to be the two that rattled my innards the most. So I wonder if that is a coincidence or if a better bass communicates the notes by feel more than one that's not as good.

I know that's one thing I like about my Telecaster versus some of the other electric guitars I've played. I guess it's the string-through arrangement but I can feel it as well as hear it. With a bass that seems to be half the fun of it but my worry is that body vibration is a red herring and might lead me to picking a crummy bass just because it "feels louder". The expensive bass I liked has a massive maple body and neck with string-through. The other was a super, super lightweight no-name Jazz Bass clone and I guess it vibrates because it's so light and flimsy.

All I know is it's hard to get excited about a bass that just sits there like a lump of wood when you pluck the low notes real hard. And it's easy to get excited about one that even the top string gets to your bones.

[Flat357]

There is a lot of opinion that the guitar that offers feeling through the instrument will be more alive , but at the end of the day , it has to be playable , and sound ok , so a guitar that plays like a nightmare , will be of no use , regardless of vibration .
Also , I don't think a bass that makes your fingers vibrate is a good idea health wise .

[Brent Hutto]

Yeah, on that little Chinese Jazz clone everything vibrates. It's got a real sweet sounding neck pickup (weak bridge though) but the whole affair felt kinda loosey-goosey. I also noticed that one of the strings wasn't quite parallel to the others and its action was lower. Definitely not an instrument you'd want to play every day and the vibrating fingers would be another concern. It was funny holding a bass that doesn't way near as much as my Telecaster, a particularly heavy-seeming MiM example.

When I was guitar shopping last year, there was one particular 'burst-colored MiM Standard that was the most resonant thing I'd ever played. Just a great feeling of power to strum it. So I narrowed it down to the red one I ended up with versus the great-feeling one. I had my guitar teacher play both of them and the red one sounded way better. He said it sounded better because it had a better neck and fretwork and the action was perfect so he was able to play a lot easier on it. So obviously the good vibrations didn't win out.

Sounds like it's the same deal with basses, in you opinion. Right?

[Tim Armstrong]

I think I feel the actual vibration of the whole instrument on a more subliminal level, as part of the overall feel and responsiveness of the bass. My criteria are how it feels in my hands (particularly my fretting hand), how it balances and how comfortable is is when I'm wearing it with a strap, how comfortably I can actually play notes and runs with both hands, and how it sounds through a decent amp.

I'd guess that a bass that did all that would be a responsive one, and one you'd feel vibrate to some extent while you played it. I've played instruments that I didn't like because they felt dead...

Cheers, Tim

[bilpfeiffer]

Buy a fender or carvin and I think you will be alright; Bil

[Brent Hutto]

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a $250-ish one that I like well enough to buy. The desirable options all seem to be more like $500. Help me sort out my impressions after playing and hearing a bunch of basses in that $500 range...

First off, should a MiM Standard Jazz Bass made with Ash sound different than one made with Alder? Same neck, same pickups, a Limited Ash model one seems more responsive and a bit brighter/focused than the several plain old Alder ones I tried. I wouldn't think body wood is a big enough deal for a total beginner to discern in the sound and feel. Maybe it was just a better individual luck of the draw instrument. Costs about $50 beyond the already over-budget cost of a stock Standard.

Second question. The most impressive instrument I've heard is an Ibanez ATK300. Maple fingerboard, string-through, hot active 3-coil humbucker, heavy. Listening to it being playing with a slap/pop/funk kind of attack it is pretty amazing. It also seems to make the guys demoing it for me smile a lot. Nothing else in the store has that sound. Nice big fat neck, too.

Here's the question. The salesman thought it was a no-brainer choice and my nephew who I took along to play for me agrees. They can't imagine wanting a more subdued bass without that great, funky tone for basically the same price (ATK300 costs about the same as MiM Standard). But the salesman made a comment that puzzles me. He said "It's perfect unless you're looking for that Jazz Bass sound..." which doesn't really mean much to me.

So what sorts of music does a Jazz Bass supposedly create that you wouldn't want to do a slappy attacking type of instrument? Obviously I need to follow up with the guy and see what he means but I do admit that the Ash-bodied Fender has a really sweet tone on the neck pickup. Playing minor scale runs on the top two strings I can sort of make it hum like my Tele with the tone rolled off. That big old Ibanez puts a little more zing and pop on it when I play the same way. Is that a sound that you ever need playing bass?

[4mal]

Let's start again form the top shall we ...

Best bet - bar none! What kind of music do you like, aspire to play, have the opportunity to playe, etc ... That has a lot to do with what you want a bass to do tonally.

Technique wise - slap 'n pop is impressive as heck - until you try to find a gig where you can use it regularly ... therefor, unless you see re-inventing yourself as the second coming of Flea ... do not choose a bass given that it has a better slap 'n pop ...

Ash is more focused and tends to be a but scooped sounding. Les prominent mid's, more prominent low's and hi's. Faster attack - this can be good, this can also be bad... I love Tommy at USACG's description of Alder. "It's the tastes like chicken of the tone woods." Adler - softer attack - maybe more forgiving technique wise. More balanced tonally. Realy good choice for a versatile 'utility' instrument.

I love my Ash bodied J for it's strong attack and ringing presence. It has a super stiff maple neck. It's strung with a nice set of round wounds. It has a great rock 'n roll presence to it - it is a bass that makes demands of it's own though as it is entirely unforgiving of bad fretting technique. You goof on it and the world (at least that part that actually listens to the bass player ...) knows about it... Part of me playing rock is that I tend to dumb down my lines from the stuff I would get away with in a smooth jazz or even a blues gig. That bass works great for me there, it sounds like rock 'n roll!

So - what do you really want to do with a bass in your hands musically ?

[Brent Hutto]

4mal,

Good questions, getting to the heart of the matter.

In my wildest dreams I might imagine one day doing the Paul Chambers thing (is that the right guy?) on So What with my nephew on keys. Yeah, I know that sound is from a fretless acoustic bass but even in my dreams I couldn't handle playing one of those.

Back to something like reality, I'd settle for being able to play most anything with a solid groove and something beyond the I and V on the beat. Off the top of my head, I can think back on any of those great old Fleetwood Mac hits or even Sting doing the Message in a Bottle riff.

When it comes to general musical taste, I'm a big fan of most all of Mark Knopfler's stuff from the last decade of two. I think it was Glen Worf with him on the Shangri La sessions. That's exemplary bass playing in my book even though honestly that was probably pretty boring to play (I don't think the bass player gets to do much behind Knopfler).

I'll tell you two other random, great bass grooves from highly disparate genres. Whoever played bass in the early 70's group Love did a killer job on their version of Hey, Joe. And have you ever heard the Muleskinner album? Clarence White (RIP) starts off with that killer Telecaster lick that's basically Country Boy Rock 'n Roll and then the bass comes in and just drives that song something fierce. That was something, don't know who played bass in that group.

How's that for an overview?

[4mal]

go find the best p-bass that you can afford, that also fit's your hand... that'll do the trick for ya for a long time.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by 4mal

go find the best p-bass that you can afford, that also fit's your hand... that'll do the trick for ya for a long time.

+1

Cheers, Tim

[Brent Hutto]

In my off-the-cuff reply to 4mal I mentioned the So What bass melody. Just for curiosity I looked up the notation online and have been playing it on my Tele neck pickup with the tone pot and amplifier rolled off all the way.

First, it's easy to play the notes (at least on a guitar). I can get the swing but it's at a slow tempo. What fun!

Then when it gets to the part with the quarter notes walking all over the place I could just bop along like that all day. And that's on a guitar.

Is that stuff easy on the bass too? I realize I'm just playing it straight and not improvising but it's such a fun groove. It would make anyone want to play bass...

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Is that stuff easy on the bass too? I realize I'm just playing it straight and not improvising but it's such a fun groove. It would make anyone want to play bass...

I gotta go dig out the CD and listen again, but I THINK it's about feel and not a really chops-intensive part. I had an upright bass for about a year recently, and it's a whole lot more work for me to play stuff on one than on an electric bass guitar. It wasn't the fretless aspect, either, as much as it was the longer reaches (43 inch scale length versus 34 or 30 inches) and the fact that the body and neck join about where the seventh fret would be, so playing up the neck requires a heck of a lot more effort.

Heck, it was a right hand workout, too!!!

Oh, and while we're talking about copping tones, the amp is every bit as important as the bass.

Cheers, Tim

[4mal]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Oh, and while we're talking about copping tones, the amp is every bit as important as the bass.

Cheers, Tim

Yep. Maybe even more so ...

[Brent Hutto]

A couple of music-major jazz students I've known have told me that the notes ain't jazz. The feel is the only thing that matters. That said...having diddled around with it Tim is right in this case. There's nothing to the notes but a simple eight-note pattern in Dorian D mode repeated with slight variations. If you get it to swing right and maybe add a couple of little slides or other ornaments it's a great riff. Otherwise you're just running up and down an octave-plus of Dm7 (with the same thing in Ebm7 for the B section).

I could only find one P-bass to try out and unfortunately it has considerable setup issues. The low E string rattles somewhere down around the fifteenth fret something awful. And all the strings felt sort of loose and rattly compared to the other basses I've played. However, 4mal was right. That's the tone I hear in my dreams. I'd say a decent Jazz Bass sings but even this poorly setup P-bass proclaims if that makes sense. It's a really deep basso profundo tone but with a clarity I can't duplicate with the EQ controls on other basses. Kind of like listening to those great English stages actors with that voice-of-God accent.

And all that's through a little practice amp in the store. I don't know if it's the setup or not but that clarity comes at the price of being able to hear the strings clanking on the fret every time I fret a note. For such a bass-heavy tone it sure is sensitive to little extraneous high-pitched noises. Still, I need to find a decently setup Precision Bass somewhere and try it through a real amp. I do like the neck, it fits my hand which has oversized palms and somewhat stubby fingers.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

I could only find one P-bass to try out and unfortunately it has considerable setup issues. The low E string rattles somewhere down around the fifteenth fret something awful. And all the strings felt sort of loose and rattly compared to the other basses I've played. However, 4mal was right. That's the tone I hear in my dreams. I'd say a decent Jazz Bass sings but even this poorly setup P-bass proclaims if that makes sense. It's a really deep basso profundo tone but with a clarity I can't duplicate with the EQ controls on other basses. Kind of like listening to those great English stages actors with that voice-of-God accent.

And all that's through a little practice amp in the store. I don't know if it's the setup or not but that clarity comes at the price of being able to hear the strings clanking on the fret every time I fret a note. For such a bass-heavy tone it sure is sensitive to little extraneous high-pitched noises. Still, I need to find a decently setup Precision Bass somewhere and try it through a real amp. I do like the neck, it fits my hand which has oversized palms and somewhat stubby fingers.

I found that a P-Bass benefits from a careful setup with a small amount of relief and medium-high action, particularly with flatwounds (and I'm a huge fan of flats, myself). I had some really annoying fret rattle until I figured that out...

Cheers, Tim

[Brent Hutto]

I don't where within driving distance I can find a good selection of Precision Basses. The biggest dealer in town has one (with the aforementioned setup problems) and the other store that has a decent selection of Fender/Squier stuff only has Squier Precisions, no Fenders. I guess maybe I can talk them down a few bucks since the setup is so poor, I know a guy in town that for $100-odd can do a setup and fret levelling job that can make a guitar play like butta.

I'd really like to get a look at a 50's Classic in person since it has a maple fingerboard, although it's out of my price range anyway. It also has a cool factor that's off the charts.

Am I going to have to spend real money on a practice amp (for my 12'x20' living room) in order to feed my Tone Jones? If I can't get by with a $200-ish little 10" combo then the budget for a bass shrinks to under $500 for sure. For my part, the 65W/12" Ibanez combo that they use to demo basses in the store sounds pretty good. That one rattlling Precision seems to light it up nicely.

[4mal]

I avoid things with the Squire label like the plague. There is way too much green wood in use at that end of the market. You're way better off with a decent MIM and a setup. You should be able to do that well within your budget. It won't be the be all / end all but it will be a servicable instrument. Used is always the best bet bet for me... If you can get that P to your luthier buddy for an examination prior to puchase - it might be a good bet. If you look about, you might find a 90's MIM Precision Special (24 Fret J neck on a P body, active electronics) generally they sell in the $300 and under range used. Nice basses, especially if you like J profile necks. After all the upgrades and mod's I've done to mine I'm over $600 in it - dumb as I'll never get that out of it but for what it is as an instrument - I couldn't touch a bass that plays or sounds like it for near that. Some of what I did was as an experiment so I'm writing some of that off to the cost of education...

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by 4mal

If you look about, you might find a 90's MIM Precision Special (24 Fret J neck on a P body, active electronics) generally they sell in the $300 and under range used. Nice basses, especially if you like J profile necks.

By J-neck you mean the same neck as on a MiM Jazz Bass?

I like the way the thicker necks sit in my hand but based on the few that I've played the Jazz neck actually seems to be quicker for me to reach the notes on. Even though the P-bass neck feels better it sort of slows my hand down, if that makes any sense.

The ultimate route to a good $500 bass is probably to find a used one for $300 and pay the guy $150 to make it play like a Steinway. Leaves a few extra bucks for the amp at some point.

[4mal]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

By J-neck you mean the same neck as on a MiM Jazz Bass?

more or less. Similar profile, more frets. In my case, I had the fingerboard edge 'rolled' and the fret ends dressed to match. New nut as I was changing string guages. About $150 after a couple of high frets were dealt with. Makes the bass play like it's had a million notes played on it...

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

I like the way the thicker necks sit in my hand but based on the few that I've played the Jazz neck actually seems to be quicker for me to reach the notes on. Even though the P-bass neck feels better it sort of slows my hand down, if that makes any sense.

For folks who double on guitar and bass, the J neck is generally considered easier to get around on. The down side is that it can inspire 'overplaying' so you have to watch that more closely. My #1 is a J. I've been both a P and a J guy over the years. My P basses today are all PJ's ...

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

The ultimate route to a good $500 bass is probably to find a used one for $300 and pay the guy $150 to make it play like a Steinway. Leaves a few extra bucks for the amp at some point.

No question there

A good luthier can make an average bass exceptional or a poor bass, at least average. I've played a bunch of rather expensive, poorly setup basses where I just shake my head ... when I'm looking - I get nervous about basses with light string set's - maybe this is a rubber neck that can't support a heavier guage ? I need confirmation that the truss works and isn't at the end of it's range. I don't want to see any humps or dips above the 12th to 14th fret area of the neck as the TR won't deal with those - pretty much the same stuff you'd be leery of with a guitar in other words...

Were it me, I'd play a MIM J, MIM P - then start thinking about the setup ... as an alternative, a used Highway 1 P - they often sell in the $450 range used and they are really, really good basses for that kind of dough... the neck is between a full width P and a J. IMO - the earlier ones with traditional bridges rather than the later that came with BadAss bridges are preferrable. The BA isn't a deal buster but these days I do prefer the trad bridge.

[Brent Hutto]

Well, today I found a few Precision Basses to try out. One each of Squier (Indonesia), Fender (Japan) and a return to the Fender (MiM) that I sampled earlier. Turns out its setup problem was that someone had removed both action-setting screws from the E-string barrel saddle. So the string was so low it buzzed on every note and the saddle was actually moving around and touching the adjacent saddle and the bridge. Shoulda noticed that the first time.

I'm not going to buy it but the best setup and best playing guitar I've seen so far was a Squier Pete Wentz Singnature P-bass with an Agathis body, standard P-type pickup and a nice maple fingerboard. It sounded very good and the setup fit my hand perfectly. However, it's a Squier with an asking price of $400+tax and it probably has about zero resale value with the funky decoration. BTW, it had a lovely rolled-edge fingerboard and a great fret job. Some guy in Indonesia was having a good day.

The best sounding of the three was a 2003-ish model Blue Flower made in Japan with a basswood body and the vintage, tinted maple fingerboard and tiny little old frets. Kinda hard to play but it had a hot single-coil pickup and was the I.E. of P-bass tone in my book. Boom, like that. Not something I'd want even if it weren't $600 but now I have a model for what a P-bass can sound like (it was played through a Peavey 4x10 and Peavey head, very strong amp).

With the E-string saddle properly adjusted the MiM Standard was an awfully fun to play bass. As far as I can tell (with no idea of proper technique) a straightforward P-bass neck is just right for my hand. With thinner necks I tend to twist my thumb around behind the neck to "push" rather than letting it float up past the top edge. I did have to crank up the Bass EQ on the amp in the store to get a real good punch out of the bottom strings but I think that says more about the amp than the P-bass.

I also played around on several Jazz basses for a couple minutes at a time and the tone just ain't there. I did try a hybrid P+J pickup arrangement and it sounds pretty good on the P but the J doesn't add much to the party. I seem to be pretty comprehesively in the market for a P-Bass at this point. Now I have to decide if it's worth paying for a bird in the hand (i.e. the one MiM I've seen in person) or saving a bunch of money and ordering up a used one off the 'Bay and hoping it is either good or can be made good.