Questions about my '74 P Bass

[Thunderbroom]

Hi all. I purchased a stock '74 P bass a few months ago. I am playing it through a Trace Elliot Head with 2x10 and 1x15 Eden cabs. I know the Trace isn't the best choice, and I plan to remedy that sometime in the next few months.

My question is this: Obviously it's passive so what pickups are out there that might give me more output without going active, but still maintaining real mid-70's thump and grind? I am familiar with tele pickups but never looked into Precision replacements more than just ads. What can you recommend? Should I wait until I make my amp purchase first or should I look at pickups at possible solving the problem more cheaply?

Thoughts, ideas, concerns? Thanks in advance.

Howard

[brock29609]

Have you given any thought to rewinding the stock pickups? Not sure what that would do to the value, or if you care.

[4mal]

If by more output, you mean louder. Pickup's probably won't do it for you. Loud being a function of the power available in your amp. That assumes that the stock pup can actually drive the input on the Trace. I have yet to meet the bass amp input that can't be over driven by even stock pup's. I'd be suprised to hear that your P couldn't drive the Trace to deliver it's full output.

For a replacement for the P. The Duncan Vintage (SPB & SJB) are good choices for replacing the stock pup while maintaining it's essential character. 70's P bass pup's weren't all that great.

If you want more apparent volume, you might want to compress a bit before your amp, or use the on board compressor if available. Too much and you lose tone, punch and 'character' but a bit of compressor or limiter, knocking down the peaks will help you run your setup closer to it's maximum output. Too close and you can damage stuff though ... So if by output, you mean loudness or volume - you need more watts.

Now I could be all wet here and have mis-understood your question. When you say 'mid 70's grind', what players or bands are you thinking of ? mid 70's run's from AbbA through ZZ Top after all ...

[Dennis_UK]

Might be an idea to have the wiring checked - it could have been rewired wrongly and cancelled some of the humbucking-ness, which, given how humbuckers buck, would also take out some of the tone and signal level.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by 4mal

If by more output, you mean louder. Pickup's probably won't do it for you. Loud being a function of the power available in your amp. That assumes that the stock pup can actually drive the input on the Trace. I have yet to meet the bass amp input that can't be over driven by even stock pup's. I'd be suprised to hear that your P couldn't drive the Trace to deliver it's full output.

For a replacement for the P. The Duncan Vintage (SPB & SJB) are good choices for replacing the stock pup while maintaining it's essential character. 70's P bass pup's weren't all that great.

If you want more apparent volume, you might want to compress a bit before your amp, or use the on board compressor if available. Too much and you lose tone, punch and 'character' but a bit of compressor or limiter, knocking down the peaks will help you run your setup closer to it's maximum output. Too close and you can damage stuff though ... So if by output, you mean loudness or volume - you need more watts.

That is incorrect. A hotter pickup will absolutely give more volume or loudness.

A hotter pickup means a hotter signal to the preamp, which means that the power amp's input sees a hotter signal. The power amp section multiplies that signal, i.e. it applies x amount of gain. You won't have more watts, of course, but you will have more volume because the output signal is higher.

[Dave W]

Thunderbroom, to answer your question, there are some high-output passive Precision pickups. But anytime you make a change you can't help but alter the tone somewhat.

Probably the two best known are Seymour Duncan's Hot Precision and Quarter Pound Precision. Both sound good, neither sound true to the original but to my ears the Quarter Pound is closer and still has high output.

[4mal]

That is incorrect. A hotter pickup will absolutely give more volume or loudness.

A hotter pickup means a hotter signal to the preamp, which means that the power amp's input sees a hotter signal. The power amp section multiplies that signal, i.e. it applies x amount of gain. You won't have more watts, of course, but you will have more volume because the output signal is higher.

nope.

The output section of the amp has a finite capacity to amplify. Go beyond that capacity and you get distortion and heat.

The real question is can the pickup drive the preamp section of the amp hard enough to allow the preamp to drive the power amp to it's capacity. It's pretty rare to find an amp that won't allow a passive P Bass pickup to drive the amp to it's full capacity. It isn't imposiible of coure, but highly unlikely in my experience.

One way to check would be to insert a preamp between the bass and the input of the Trace and very slowly bring the output up. Did we get louder than with the Trace by itself ? My guess is no.

Another would be to check the clip light on the Trace if it has one. If it does, and you can light it up with the P bass, then you're going to be able to drive the Trace to produce it's rated output.

You want a reliable way to add loudness - more watts or more efficient drivers or more drivers or all of the above.

[Thunderbroom]

Well you've all come through to give me some information and ideas to chew on for a while. At a gig last night, the bassist also suggested to try some flat wounds for more punch. I will certainly consider all the stuff you have provided. Thanks all!

[tom grossheider]

Couple of things that come to mind, and I apologize if they have already been covered. The pickups tone should be great, just make sure that they are the correct height from the strings. That can greatly affect output. If they are weak from damage then the passive Duncans or even the Fender 62 RI pickups have great tone. I've heard some great sounding Trace bass heads, nothing wrong with those!! Let us know how it comes out.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by 4mal

nope.

The output section of the amp has a finite capacity to amplify. Go beyond that capacity and you get distortion and heat.

The real question is can the pickup drive the preamp section of the amp hard enough to allow the preamp to drive the power amp to it's capacity. It's pretty rare to find an amp that won't allow a passive P Bass pickup to drive the amp to it's full capacity. It isn't imposiible of coure, but highly unlikely in my experience.

One way to check would be to insert a preamp between the bass and the input of the Trace and very slowly bring the output up. Did we get louder than with the Trace by itself ? My guess is no.

Another would be to check the clip light on the Trace if it has one. If it does, and you can light it up with the P bass, then you're going to be able to drive the Trace to produce it's rated output.

You want a reliable way to add loudness - more watts or more efficient drivers or more drivers or all of the above.

You seem to be saying that if a Precision is capable of driving the amp to capacity -- and of course it can -- that a hotter input signal won't be any louder. That's demonstrably false.

For example, if i compare my Precision with my Gibson EB-0L at any given power amp settings -- meaning the power amp is putting out the same amount of power -- the Gibson will be way louder than my Precision. I can turn the Precision to its preamp distortion threshhold and crank the power amp section to 10, and it still won't be near as loud as the Gibson is at lower settings.

[51pbass]

Originally Posted by Thunderbroom

Hi all. I purchased a stock '74 P bass a few months ago. I am playing it through a Trace Elliot Head with 2x10 and 1x15 Eden cabs. I know the Trace isn't the best choice, and I plan to remedy that sometime in the next few months.

My question is this: Obviously it's passive so what pickups are out there that might give me more output without going active, but still maintaining real mid-70's thump and grind? I am familiar with tele pickups but never looked into Precision replacements more than just ads. What can you recommend? Should I wait until I make my amp purchase first or should I look at pickups at possible solving the problem more cheaply?

Thoughts, ideas, concerns? Thanks in advance.

Howard

" Hey Howard !! The 74 is not my favorite year, but set up properly it can be a great bass. If you want the 70's sound man, then go for the real deal. There are a lot of that vintage pickups kickin' around. Check out E-bay and every place you can think of. The varios Duncans are all very good. Call Duncan and talk to them. The call is free and they are nice people
\
I play a REAL 1951 P-Bass with a Custom Shop Duncan through two SVT's. Take no prisoners !!

Keep asking everyone, lots of good folks out there. Get the sound YOU WANT and not what some gear head tells you is cool.

[4mal]

Dave,
my experience seems somewhat different from yours. In my view of the world, capacity is capacity or (n) watts is (n) watts however you arrive there in your setup. If your rig is capable of that as a limit, that's what you get. Put those (n) watts into a cab and you get output.

Gain happens in 3, maybe 4 stages. Your Pickup, magnified by the preamp, in turn magnified by the power amp. If the power amp is rated at (n) watts. Assuming that we are talking about clean output, however you set the gain's, (n) watts is the limit. The hotter pickup does in fact drive the preamp harder, but the power amp is still the limiting factor. (n) watts remains (n) watts.

I don't doubt that your EBO has very different apparent volume from your P. Each of those basses has a very different focus on frequency response with the EBO have a huge low end and the P being more balanced across the bass spectrum. Again, experience tells me that you'll have more apparent volume setting to setting from the EBO. But you'll run out of headroom or of the ability of your cabinet to produce those low 's quicker. It is a matter of balancing the relative gain stages.

As a last thought. My experience also tell's me that when bass rigs get run at their rated capacity for any significant period of time - they begin to fail. Amp's thermal off, drivers cook ... you want louder, clean and reliable - add power or speakers or efficiency (to your cab).

[Dave W]

4mal, we're way off topic, so I'll end my comments with this post.

It has nothing to do with apparent loudness. SPL can be measured with a proper meter, in various frequency ranges.

In my world, when you plug in an instrument with a hotter pickup than the instrument's stock pickup, you get more volume. No exceptions.