Dead spot on G String

[rockycreeker]

A dead spot has developed within the last few weeks on my MIM Precision Bass. It is at the 5th fret on the G string. That is the only note that seems dead and doesn't sustain like all the other notes on that string. It occurs with or without amplification, so it's not an electronic issue. I changed strings also, thinking I might have a string problem, but it is identical with the new strings.

Any ideas?

[martini]

Have you tried adjusting the action or tweaking the truss rod?

[rockycreeker]

In a word, no I haven't. I have always been pretty scared to mess with truss rods - I'm a pretty new bass player, but I've played electric guitar for over 30 years and I've always left that to someone else who (hopefully) knew what they were doing.

The guy that does my guitar setup work says that the problem at only one fret doesn't seem to indicate a truss rod issue. And I haven't fooled with the action either. I am going to take the bass to to the fellow I mentioned, but I was also looking for suggestions here.

[martini]

It could be a number of things, as you know it isnt the strings and its a new problem it should be relativly easy to solve.
My money is on a slight neck adjustment or a lifted fret, both will be easy for your guy to fix in next to no time.

Let us know what the result is.

[teleuwhat]

I had a P Bass that did that too, at the 3rd fret.

It improved a little when I tightened the truss rod about 1/4 turn. Hope your guitar tech tries that, it may help.

[rockycreeker]

My MIM P-Bass is off to my tech's place today. I'll let you know what it turns out to be.

[ednew]

During Leo's late prime, when he ran G&L, he changed the bass headstock design to address the so-called "sweet spot" on the Fendr Precision bass.

This dead spot centered on the 5th and 6th frets on the G string. Players long complained about the drop in attack and sustain when hitting those frets.

Hope your tech finds a way to help you out.

[martini]

I've heard that tale about the dead spot on the P bass; I've gone through a lot of these basses and still have a '62 precision. Never had a problem with any of them....

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by ednew

During Leo's late prime, when he ran G&L, he changed the bass headstock design to address the so-called "sweet spot" on the Fendr Precision bass.

This dead spot centered on the 5th and 6th frets on the G string. Players long complained about the drop in attack and sustain when hitting those frets.

It's NOT the so-called sweet spot, it has nothing at all to do with that. It's called a dead spot. It is not unique to the Precision or to Fenders. There is nothing Leo did with G&L's headstock that had anything to do with this.

It's an area of reduced sustain most often in the 5th-7th fret area on the G. It happens when the neck resonates at the same frequency as the notes and reduces their output.

And it's not confined to basses, it happens on guitars too. See http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/fleischer.html

I've owned 7 Fender basses, 2 of which I still own. None of them has ever had this "Fender dead spot". But I do have a Gibson bass with it. And a couple of years ago I had several basses on loan for a project, including a Wal and an Alembic which both had noticeably reduced sustain in that same area.

Sometimes tweaking the truss rod a little bit in either direction can change the neck resonance enough to eliminate it.

[martini]

Actually, Leo Fender increased the mass of the G&L headstock. He'd experimented with this idea with the prototype MM basses as well.
If you increase the headstock mass, it seriously increases sustain throughout the range of the instrument.
As an extreme experiment, attach a carpenters g-clamp to the headstock of your favourite bass and listen to the difference. Or try and find one of the "Fatboy" brass plates from the 80's, these were designed to be screwed to the back of P bass and J bass headstocks to counteract the very deadspot we are debating.

Headstock mass is also the reason why the Steinberger basses were made of a dense composite material; to counteract the loss of sustain by having no headstock....

[Dennis_UK]

My Tele bass had it, and the Sting has it too. I can live with it.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by martini

Actually, Leo Fender increased the mass of the G&L headstock. He'd experimented with this idea with the prototype MM basses as well.
If you increase the headstock mass, it seriously increases sustain throughout the range of the instrument.
As an extreme experiment, attach a carpenters g-clamp to the headstock of your favourite bass and listen to the difference. Or try and find one of the "Fatboy" brass plates from the 80's, these were designed to be screwed to the back of P bass and J bass headstocks to counteract the very deadspot we are debating.

I'm well aware he increased the mass of the headstock, I'm not aware that there's a shred of evidence it had any effect. Just like Fenders, G&Ls sometimes have that dead spot area too. Fender also thickened their headstocks starting with the American Standard series in 1995. Yet there's no evidence this has reduced the incidence of dead spots.

Supposedly the Music Man headstock design was supposed to help. Supposedly that was also why Fender changed from the Tele-style headstock in 1957. No evidence either had any effect.

They happen on some basses. That's just the way it is.

The brass plate was called the Fathead (made by Groove Tubes). It probably helped in some cases, but if it had been a magic fix, they wouldn't have discontinued it due to low sales, would they? They now market the Fat Finger clamps. Same thing, they occasionally change the frequency of the dead spot area enough to make a difference, but they usually wind up just moving it down the neck a little.

According to Rick Turner, who has done a lot of experimentation on it, the answer is more stiffness to raise the resonant frequency of the neck to a higher point than the fundamentals. Don't know if that's true, but more mass acts in the opposite direction, it lowers the resonant frequency.

[Oster]

Rockycreeker wrote that the dead spot problem had developed in recent weeks. It'd be interesting to find out whether the problem was structural or whether or not the truss rod only needed a little adjusting.

I'm a little reluctant to accept that Leo's idea of enlarging the headstock was one without merit. Given his alleged workaholic methods and tireless experimenting, you'd think that he had reason to believe such a modification would help.

Interesting topic.

[martini]

There's plenty of evidence that headstock mass directly affects tone and potential deadspots.

The Fathead was thoroughly tested in Guitar player magazine and the conclusion was drawn that it made a world of difference.

On a personal note, the first time I fitted a set of light Schaller M4 machine heads to a Rickenbacker bass to reduce neckdive told me there was something in the theory.....the old machines were refitted almost immediately.

The fact that Groove tubes perservered and redeveloped the concept points to a fault in the original marketing or an unwillingness on behalf of the musician to accept the idea.
As stated, I've never experienced the deadspot problem myself but I know plenty of people who have, some accept it and others look for solutions.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by martini

There's plenty of evidence that headstock mass directly affects tone and potential deadspots.

The Fathead was thoroughly tested in Guitar player magazine and the conclusion was drawn that it made a world of difference.

On a personal note, the first time I fitted a set of light Schaller M4 machine heads to a Rickenbacker bass to reduce neckdive told me there was something in the theory.....the old machines were refitted almost immediately.

The fact that Groove tubes perservered and redeveloped the concept points to a fault in the original marketing or an unwillingness on behalf of the musician to accept the idea.
As stated, I've never experienced the deadspot problem myself but I know plenty of people who have, some accept it and others look for solutions.

We weren't talking about whether or not it affects tone. And your story of the Schaller M4s really has nothing to do with dead spots, though different tuners certainly can affect tone.

Show me scientific evidence that the Groove Tubes Fat Finger works consistently. I'm not talking about fluff reviews in a magazine where they advertise. I'm not talking about their marketing hype. I mean independently verifiable information.

Every time this comes up over at Talkbass, there are always far more people who say it did nothing for them.

Adding a clamp or other mass can change the resonant frequency of a neck. So can a change in string tension, or trussrod tension -- if it's a compression rod. And the change may alter the dead spot to where it's less noticeable. But there are no magic solutions.

[Dave W]

And if you go through the archives at MIMF, you'll find far more builders who think more stiffness is the answer -- not more mass. YMMV, of course.

[martini]

If you look back at the thread you will find that the connection between mass and tone has been central to my debate in my earlier posts.
This is turning into my word against yours, I've never had the dreaded deadspot but I dont deny that it exists.

I dont have to show you any kind of proof, this is based my own experience. Increasing headstock mass did make a difference on my old Rick (which by the way sports two trussrods).

I've owned old and new Fenders with varying headstock sizes and never once had a problem. Have I been lucky, do I adjust the necks differently than other players....who knows.

You gleefully state there are no magic solutions. Pobably not but there are ways and means to counter the deadspot.

Rather than quote the research and experience of others, why dont you conduct your own trials and let us know the results.

[ednew]

It's NOT the so-called sweet spot, it has nothing at all to do with that. It's called a dead spot. It is not unique to the Precision or to Fenders. There is nothing Leo did with G&L's headstock that had anything to do with this.

I erred in my original post. Meant to say "soft spot" not sweet spot. Another senior moment (sigh).

In his book "Fender, The Sound Heard Round the World," Richard Smith discusses Leo Fender's post-CBS work at Music Man / G&L and mentions this "soft spot" business:

"Music Man basses used a trademark peghead with three tuners on one side and one on the other. Designed by Forrest White, it lessened problems inherent in the old Fender basses like the "soft spot" at the fifth and sixth fret on the G string, where the C and C# were not as loud as the others (sic)."

So there certainly WAS a soft spot issue in the minds of Fender and White re the old fender bass design.

[martini]

Hear, hear.

[Dave W]

This is turning into my word against yours, I've never had the dreaded deadspot but I dont deny that it exists

What are you talking about? I've never denied that it exists either. Of course it does.

I dont have to show you any kind of proof, this is based my own experience. Increasing headstock mass did make a difference on my old Rick (which by the way sports two trussrods).

You weren't talking about your experience with your Rickenbacker. You were making claims about Fender dead spots based on someone's marketing hype and a review from a magazine that never pans advertisers' products.

And I'm well aware Rics have two truss rods, I've played them for years.

Rather than quote the research and experience of others, why dont you conduct your own trials and let us know the results.

Dude...you're the one making the claims based on someone else's hype. It's up to you to back them up. I'm just pointing out that some people who actually make instruments think otherwise.

I couldn't care less about conducting experiments, But I'm not the one making the claims.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by ednew

I erred in my original post. Meant to say "soft spot" not sweet spot. Another senior moment (sigh).

In his book "Fender, The Sound Heard Round the World," Richard Smith discusses Leo Fender's post-CBS work at Music Man / G&L and mentions this "soft spot" business:

"Music Man basses used a trademark peghead with three tuners on one side and one on the other. Designed by Forrest White, it lessened problems inherent in the old Fender basses like the "soft spot" at the fifth and sixth fret on the G string, where the C and C# were not as loud as the others (sic)."

So there certainly WAS a soft spot issue in the minds of Fender and White re the old fender bass design.

Of course there was an issue in their minds, and there was an issue in fact. Still is.

But as I mentioned above, there are definitely Music Man basses with dead spots in the same area. Maybe they occur less often with the Music Man headstock, I couldn't say. But the Music Man headstock did not make the problem go away. At best, it lessened it.

[Tim Armstrong]

You've both made your opinions very clear, any further posting will probably just be unpleasant.

Send each other emails if you need to discuss this further, okay?

Thanks,

Tim

[martini]

Hey Tim, is it safe to come out yet......?

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by martini

Hey Tim, is it safe to come out yet......?

I haven't gone away, if that's what you mean.

[Tim Armstrong]

I don't know how safe it is, I may just start another upright bass thread!!!

Cheers, Tim

[martini]

Dont flatter yourself Dave.....

[ednew]

Rockycreeker,

Did your tech diagnose the problem and make a recommendation?

Curious minds want to know. :)

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by martini

Dont flatter yourself Dave.....

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, since I'm certainly not flattering myself. But I tried to lighten things up and you're responding with a snide remark. Oh well, can't say I didn't try.

[martini]

I apologise for the comment Dave, you are quite forthright in your views (as I am myself) and I think I just took things a little bit to Heart.

[Dave W]

Cool. Just a difference of opinion, and only a partial one at that.

[rockycreeker]

I never did post any reply about the bass!! That is still a mystery. My tech thought that the pickup might be too high and possibly that it was causing a dead spot at that fret (G string -fifth fret) due to magnetic pull - because you don't seem to notice that as much with the note played acoustically as you do amplified. He lowered the pickup a little and thought that he heard some improvement. But when I got the bass back- I didn't notice any improvement. So I'm still playing it - putting up with the dead note.

My tech is completely bewildered. If I knew it was the pickup - I'd replace it, but I don't want to fix something that is not broken. Thanks.

Also - I never looked back at the Bass Place until ednew mentioned it in the Strat forum. I didn't see that this dead spot issue is actually pretty common. At least I don't feel so bad now. I said that it had developed in the last few weeks. I wouldn't swear to that on a witness stand - maybe I just started noticing it.