Guitarist seeks bassists' advice....

[Colo Springs E]

......so I finally got myself in a band: cool! Here's the deal, and it's one I'm looking forward to, but a little clueless about.

This is the band set up:

*Acoustic Guitarist/Singer (sings 90% of songs)
*Guitarist/Bassist (50/50)
*Guitarist/Bassist (50/50)/Singer (sings10%, this is me)
*Drummer

I like the idea of playing bass; I'm hopeful it'll make me a better overall musician (I think I'll be forced to learn the fretboard better).

Here's where the advice part comes in; in GENERAL, what would be some 'ground rules' for a fairly "unlearned" bassist playing in a band?

(Ie, "Eric, it's better to under-play than over-play...") things like that. I've just never really played bass much.

Any habits as a guitarist I need to drop??

Thanks in advance!

And, don't think I'll be playing any slap funk stuff anytime soon; man, playing a bass is a workout huh??

-Eric (ps, we play a fair mix of classic/alternative rock; fortunately, most of what we play isn't real complex anyway from a bass perspective...)

[Ron_Fouler]

As a bassist that has become a lead guitarist (!) I can only offer this advice; Go with the rhythm, play basic root notes untill you know more, and don't start going into a cliff burton/mark king type of solo ( ;-) ).
I take it that you will me using a pick to play bass, and that will help a lot to ease the transition (FWIW, it took me 10 years to stop using a pick and start using my fingers to pluck instead, altho I still prefer the pick), so just run with it. Think of playing bass as playing rhythm guitar on one string at a time, and when you know the thing better you can put in fills and stuff and impress your friends ;-)

What bass will you be using?

Ron

[Colo Springs E]

.....CHEAP. The other guy has a nice Tobias--and he's fine with me using it--but it's a very nice bass and I'd hate to nick it or anything, so I was thinking of scoring something like a used Squire, Mex Fender, Peavey, Jay Turser,... something like that.

What's the deal with active electronics? Why is that on so many basses??

Thanks for the tips!

-ERic

[Ron_Fouler]

I've played a lot of very nice Squire Jazz basses, oddly enough. The best one was prolly an '85 MiJ jazz in salmon pink (like the colour that Hank Marvin was famous for); lovely neck, great tone, and (at the time) dirt cheap.
Having said that, my first bass was a Westone Thunder 1A, and that was nice with it's active electronics etc. nicely built and good to play. And prolly worth 3 times what I paid for it today... I wish I still had it... :?

[4mal]

advice - you will be appreciated for underplaying - not overplaying. Keep it simple. Few folks in the audience recognize a really good bassist by their chops. The entire audience can recognize of poor on by their chops ... (as in too many clams ...)

It sounds like you're doing covers. Realy, really listen to the part that the original guy played. Don't make your part more complicated than the one he recorded - unless the mis-match in instrumentation demands hat you fill up more space in the arrangement - i.e the cover has keyboards in the low end and your band doeesn't ... In that event, you may have to invent a line that covers both basses (pun intended).

There is an old joke about bassists being fined and/or drummed out of the union for playing above the 7th fret (that's why we have 5, 6 & 7 string basses now ...). It's only partially a joke... In a rock band (Rush tribute bands need not apply to this statement ...) for the most part you are a bridge between the kick and snare drums melody. If you can 'lock' into time with the drummer's foot you'll do just fine. That assumes that your drummer has a good sense of time. If he tends to speed up, you have a runaway freight on your hands ...

As for basses. As a bassist who triples with key's and guitars I am partial to the Fender J or equivalent. The J neck is generally thinner and less meaty than the Fender P. For all our nitpicking, J's & P's are very close cousins tonally and from a punch perspectve. More like tele's and hard tailed strats than say a Tele and a Les Paul. How your hand fit's the neck is the over-riding element here. You really need to try a few different necks. Take you guitar along and do some swapping while you try. See what feels most natural on both accounts... If you love the bass neck, but it screws with your guitar playing ... that isn't the right one for this gig ...

Stay in a 4 string unless you really think you're going to neeed the low B. If you think so - you also need a rig that can handle a low B - be prepared to spend for that ... you are talking 60's BF Super Reverb like dollars there ...

There are a number of good Fender clones out there. I'm partial to Fernandes, especially those from the late 80's through mid 90's. Rumor has it that they were the factory producing the MIJ Fender instruments at the time. Don't really know about that, but the Tele's and Basses I have from that era are easily equivalent.

MIM Fender's are fine. You can gig or record with them without doing any component upgrades just like you can with a MIM Strat or Tele. If it sticks, you'll eventually enter the typical upgrade cycle either incrementally or instrument by instrument.

Active vs Passive. Refer's to having on board electronics. On board electronics can take the form of a Preamp with more flexible EQ and/or a blend control; or maybe active pup's; or both. In general active pup's are brighter and more aggressive sounding and quieter than 'vintage'. The EQ options and blend options are a nice addition to a bass. I have 1 out of 5 current basses (2 more on the way!) with on board preamp. I installed that pre on a lark and while I like it in that particular bass, I have a lot more call for the vintage 'thump and bump' than the active sound.

I do run an out-board, rack mount pre though. That give's me a tube for gain (warmth), optical compression (very smooth, almost un-noticable) and a much more flexible EQ. If you are going to share the other guy's rig you might want to let him EQ his rig for his bass. You use your pre to apply the necessary adjustments for your bass ...

So there you have it ... at least my .02. Have fun with it and you'll probably find that playing bass will give you a better sense of

timing - getting locked in to the groove!
sonic space - not overplaying. Less really can be more!
chord voicing - we almost always approach harmony from down below ...

none of that will hurt you musically...

[Bob Rogers]

Others have posted pretty much what I'd give as advice. One thing I tell beginning students - No bassist ever screwed up a song by playing root notes locked on the kick drum. some other points:

Your power chord positions with roots, fifths and octives will take you a long way. Throw in the seventh with dominant and minor chords, the sixth with major chords. There are three fret "box" patterns that you can learn to cover these.

Do not hesitate to use four fingers to cover three frets. If you are playing heavy and want a clear tone you want to avoid long stretches.

As far as equipment goes you are in luck. Low end bass gear can sound great and play very well. I'm partial to the fender MIM basses, but the Squier basses are not bad at all.

[Ron_Fouler]

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

Do not hesitate to use four fingers to cover three frets. If you are playing heavy and want a clear tone you want to avoid long stretches.

I actually still do that on my Tele, so it can be a hard habit to break. Mind you, 20 years of playing bass... not really suprising :-)

[Bernie]

Tips on approaching the role of bassist:

You and the drummer are the rhythm section. Start by communicating with the drummer and lock in tightly with his foot. I hope you have a good drummer, as they are a joy to play with. A bad drummer is a nightmare.

In a nutshell, know exactly where the "1" is, know the chords to the songs, and play the root of those chords at the *right* time. This is the core what good bassists do. That's their role.

Avoid being "guitaristic", its sounds dumb on a bass. No, it sounds *really* dumb. Also, if you're a blues guitar guy, it is very difficult to pull off those boxy blues licks on a bass without sounding dumb. Proceed with caution ; )

Being a good, solid, aware bassist will help your guitar playing a lot.

Also, listen to Will Lee on the Letterman show.

All of this is MHO, YMMV. Good luck and have fun!

-Bernie

[Tim Armstrong]

Eric, lots of great advice here! I'd add that, after you start to get comfortable, definitely explore some harmonies in addition to playing the roots, at least in transitioning between chords. Also, don't feel that you absolutely HAVE TO stay down in first position!!! Playing octaves can be really cool, as well, and sliding up into notes sounds great (in moderation, of course!). Finger vibrato, too.

I like Fender-style basses, myself, and play a "personalized" P-Bass, which started out as a Tokai '57, put a Warmoth Tele Bass neck (which has a Jazz bass nut width with a really chunky profile) and a Voodoo pickup on it. I'd be happy with either a P or a J, generally...

Bottom line (pun intended), have some fun!

Cheers, Tim

[Admin]

And you've got LOTSA good advice already. :-) (And congrats again on your gig!). :-)

A (hopefully brief) bit of background: I first picked up bass around 1974. I'd been playing guitar in bands for about 10 years at that point. I practiced with the Carol Kaye book (about the only one available at the time!), took a whole bunch of bass parts off records (this was pre-cassette daze... yeah, I'm old), etc. etc.

But what REALLY taught me how to play bass like a bass player instead of like a guitar player was getting a gig where I played bass six nights a week. There's nothing like having to play the part right to motivate you to learn how. ;-) So, pressing on:

Originally Posted by Colo Springs E

I like the idea of playing bass; I'm hopeful it'll make me a better overall musician (I think I'll be forced to learn the fretboard better).

It will definitely make you a better musician. I don't know how well you know the fretboard now, but with bass you'll certainly learn where the individual notes are. If you're playing an Eb chord of any type, the first note of the first bar had better be an Eb! ;-)

Here's where the advice part comes in; in GENERAL, what would be some 'ground rules' for a fairly "unlearned" bassist playing in a band?
(Ie, "Eric, it's better to under-play than over-play...") things like that. I've just never really played bass much. Any habits as a guitarist I need to drop??

ERIC: It's better to under-play than over-play. ;-) And yes, you should drop (almost) every guitarist's habit of <u>rushing</u>. ;-)

Here's the crux of what I discovered 30 years ago: playing bass is a completely different way to look at and to hear the music. The bass is the <u>foundation</u> of everything that's being played – and just like with houses, musical foundations need to be solid. Aside from cool, funky lines that might stretch across bar lines, you'll want to play the root of the chord on the first beat of the bar, and the first beat of every chord change. As has been said, the 5th is your next most important note, followed by 6ths, 7th, and 3rds – but root and 5th are the anchors of your world.

Also: the bass player sets the tempo for the band. The drummer plays the time, but the bass player is the one who determines how fast or slow it gets played. If you don't have a metronome now, get one, and start using it.

Okay, I could repeat a bunch more stuff from above, but here are a few final recommendations: 1) Start learning bass lines directly from the recordings, there's nothing better. 2) Start spending a lot of time over at www.carolkaye.com, and just absorb. There's as much bass knowledge over there as there is Tele knowledge over here. 3) You can get all your gear-related questions answered by cruising www.talkbass.com. 4) As far as what bass to get, there are lots of good choices, but I have two letters and a word for you: "G and L." ;-) Really, those Tribute SB-2s at $299 are a steal. And if you find one used, well... grab it.

Oh, and one more thing. At some point, you're going to think (if you haven't already), "Hey, why not get a <u>short-scale</u> bass?" There are arguments pro and con, and some good short-scale instruments. But in general you'll be much happier with a full scale (34") instrument for a variety of reasons, and I'll leave it at that.

Enjoy! :-) CS

[Colo Springs E]

...thanks all for the helpful info. One question that Chris brought up: what IS the deal with short-scale basses? Do they just not have as much bottom end? What?

thanks! -Eric

[Admin]

Originally Posted by Colo Springs E

what IS the deal with short-scale basses? Do they just not have as much bottom end? What?

It's not so much lack of bottom end as it is fuzzy pitch definition. Okay, imagine a guitar with a short scale – say the nut is where the 5th fret is normally – so think of putting a capo on at the 5th fret.

Now that you have your capo on, tune everything back down to normal guitar pitch. What would happen to the strings? They'd get really loose and floppy, right?. Not unmanageably so, maybe, and you could always play a heavier gauge string to help counteract it – but it would never have same ring and resonance as the full-scale guitar tuned to the same pitch.

Well, the same thing happens with bass. NOT that there aren't some perfecty fine short-scale instruments – there are. But for <u>most</u> applications, a long-scale bass is going to perform better. Hope it helps, CS

[tpaul]

Guitarist for upteen years, decided I wanted to take up bass. I also was thinking short scale because when I've tried swapping off with a bassist's full scale instrument before, it makes for a weird transition back to guitar afterward (suddenly I feel like I'm playing a mandolin!). Anyway, I ended up with a medium-scale Squire precision bass, Japanese made in the '80s. Scale length is 32" (most short scales are 30, and 34 seems to be the norm for a regular long-scale bass).

So maybe I'm losing a bit of pitch definition? I don't know. Maybe I'll end up with a full-scale bass in the future. But it doesn't sound particularly fuzzy, at least to my ear.

Anyway, thanks for the learning and playing tips. Since I've already gone and preemptively ignored your advice on the scale length, any suggestions as to the best strings to use to make up for those two lost inches? I'm also thinking about going to flat-wounds for more of a woody tone.

Thanks again, I learn a lot by lurking.