craigslist ad ... and AWESOME RESPONSE

[Lostinthe50s]

Not so many places with live music in Vancouver anymore. Beats standing on a corner in the rain.

[twangjeff]

It never ceases to amaze me how musicians have this, "I will play and everyone should come and be wowwed and pay me tons of money," mentality. I have done about a dozen or so gigs like this restaurant gig and as a result have gotten students and quite a few private party gigs. You can take a Wednesday or Thursday night where you wouldn't have a gig anyways, and use it as a marketing opportunity. If you want to make a living as a musician you have to approach it as a business. That means understanding your product, how to market and promote your product, and how to deliver value that is worth paying for.

So many 'pros' just want their guaranteed 100-200 bucks a night and they miss the chance to get real gigs where they'd be making 500-1000 bucks a night.

[klasaine]

Ya'll are takin' it WAAAYYYY too serious.
The text of the ad and the response to the ad is funny, ironic, clever, etc.
If you can't appreciate that then man, I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, the playing for free/exposure situation is a reality, we all deal with it with both positive and negative outcomes - we all get that. Lighten up.

[Lostinthe50s]

Sorry, but I see it as somebody thinking they are being funny, ironic, and clever, but what they are actually doing is convincing an establishment that they really don't need the hassle of musicians. As I mentioned, there are fewer and fewer places in town that have any live music at all that an aspiring picker could get some exposure at. It was nice to think that at least one small place was considering bringing back what was once something I really enjoyed in this city.

An establishment opened up a line of possibility, and somebody crapped on their doorstep.

[klasaine]

You're in B.C. ... go get the gig.

[MN Punk]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Ya'll are takin' it WAAAYYYY too serious.
The text of the ad and the response to the ad is funny, ironic, clever, etc.
If you can't appreciate that then man, I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe that was the intention, but it came across as vindictive and preachy, implying that this restaurant is somehow unfairly abusing professional musicians by offering an open mic night.

To a musician trying to build a following, a room full of people is an opportunity.

And some restaurants, when trying to get established, DO participate in promotions where they feed people for free. For example, by catering a high-dollar charity event or a park festival.

[Lostinthe50s]

Originally Posted by klasaine

You're in B.C. ... go get the gig.

I wouldn't wish that on them or their patrons.

[klasaine]

Wow, tough room - I don't read it like that at all.
The response uses the same language as the ad essentially in reverse.
So if you read the response preachy and vindictive, why didn't you read the ad as condescending and arrogant?

[Lostinthe50s]

One is an offer of opportunity. The other is a big F-you. Similar language, very different message.

[MN Punk]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Wow, tough room - I don't read it like that at all.
The response uses the same language as the ad essentially in reverse.
So if you read the response preachy and vindictive, why didn't you read the ad as condescending and arrogant?

It used the same language specifically for the sake of mockery, and it came off as rather spiteful. The message was essentially, "YOU obviously wouldn't cook a meal for me for free, so what gives you the nerve to ask ME to just give you my valuable service without paying!?"

[Ethical]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Wow, tough room - I don't read it like that at all.
The response uses the same language as the ad essentially in reverse.
So if you read the response preachy and vindictive, why didn't you read the ad as condescending and arrogant?

+1

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by MN Punk

It used the same language specifically for the sake of mockery, and it came off as rather spiteful. The message was essentially, "YOU obviously wouldn't cook a meal for me for free, so what gives you the nerve to ask ME to just give you my valuable service without paying!?"

But isn't that the truth ... really.

[TeleTim911]

What a great response....hilarious. Love it. Good job!

[MN Punk]

Originally Posted by klasaine

But isn't that the truth ... really.

Nope. It isn't. Really.

A restaurant with people coming in has something that some amateur & semi-pro musicians want: A crowd to play in front of. They are doing something NICE for the music scene in your town by setting up a PA and inviting people to play in front of their customers.

If you're good enough to expect to get paid every time you take your guitar out of the case, then odds are there's some other joint in town desperate to add you to their calendar. If nobody's blowing up your booking agent's phone with paid gig offers, it's certainly not the fault of some mom & pop restaurant running an occasional open-mic.

[Oakville Dave]

The ad doesn't sound like an Open Mic Night situation, which is vastly different, and even then the host should be paid.

The restaurant is being paid by its customers because it provides a product and service. The musician does the same for the restuarant so should be paid too. Period.

What I find repugnant is the tone of the ad which sounds like the restaurant is doing the musician a favour! Agree on a rate, even if it's low, so that it's a professional relationship, not one taking advantage of another.

BTW, FUNNY RESPONSE!!

[redstringuitar]

Great response, a witty way of saying "we're not as stupid as we look"!

Imagine phoning a newspaper and asking the editorial staff if they'd be interested in some help filling out the paper... "just run this ad, go as large as you like".

[MN Punk]

Originally Posted by Oakville Dave

The restaurant is being paid by its customers because it provides a product and service. The musician does the same for the restuarant so should be paid too. Period.

What I find repugnant is the tone of the ad which sounds like the restaurant is doing the musician a favour! Agree on a rate, even if it's low, so that it's a professional relationship, not one taking advantage of another.

There is an agreed-upon rate. It's zero. This is no more immoral or "repugnant" than you going to a beauty college to get a free haircut from a student who needs practice.

[Tonemonkey]

Those who think the restaurant is being fair and providing a service to musicians are being naive and clearly have no problem getting paid gigs.

The restaurant is looking for cheap music, this is a mechanism to avoid paying for an outfit to perform to customers. No doubt the restaurant will advertise "Live Music" to entice diners in and to keep customers in after eating to use the bar, thus profiting. The next week they will offer another outfit the "opportunity for exposure", then another. This denies outfits who have worked and put the hard hours to put together a slick professional gig a recompensed output.

This is not about the ego of musicians thinking they are "good enough" to deserve to be paid, as suggested above. It will serve the establishment right if they get a bunch of arses to put diners off their food.

[Tonemonkey]

Originally Posted by MN Punk

There is an agreed-upon rate. It's zero. This is no more immoral or "repugnant" than you going to a beauty college to get a free haircut from a student who needs practice.

Were you to go into a Beauty College you would be aware of the standard and risks, and supporting the training the next generation of hairdressers, with the college. Perhaps cutting the hair of 1% of (say) 40,000 people requiring a haircut in a town

Playing free "hobby" gigs in commercial outlets deprives a tier of music professionals from making a living in a market with limited gig opportunities.

If you saw a busker or beggar trying to earn money on a street corner, would you set up next to him/her and play for free just for the sh!ts? ............ same thing.

[jvanoort]

Originally Posted by forensicdoc

Clearly I'm just a hobbyist musician because I thought the musician's reply was kind of dick-ish. I get that music is the musician's "work product"; just as food is a chef's work product. People give away samples and pro bono work in the name of self-promotion and in service of larger-later rewards all the time. Merchants who already have a steady customer base don't need to do that but it doesn't mean that others don't want/need to. If you're not willing to give away a night of playing in exchange for the uncertain promise of more work later and direct cd sales, don't . Instead, ignore the add and keep scanning the classified ads for paying work. If the restaurant owner is way off base then he won't have any takers and he'll learn he needs to up the ante if he wants to get his needs yet.

Just one guy's opinion, worth exactly what it cost.

Well...did you ever ask a plumber to do your toilet plumbing for free, just to see if you like his work enough to do your whole bathroom?...or ask a dentist to do a promotional filling?