The idea of QUALITY

[pengipete]

Originally Posted by getbent

it is not just the number of times you do something. It is the number of times you do something correctly.

...and the inspired adjustments that require imagination and skill to implement them.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by getbent

it is not just the number of times you do something. It is the number of times you do something correctly.

That still isn't a formula for success.

You see I'm assuming people are using the term quality to describe something desireable or useful.

You can repeat with precision the steps in a recipe for making mudpies and it still ain't gonna taste like cheescake.

Worse still, what if you're sold a recipe for cheescake and unbenounced to you, you've been give the steps to make mudpies. How do you know how to correct the 'correct' steps to actually arrive at cheescake.

People who sit down and practice the guitar regularily but never make progress are still following procedures correctly. They're just not following the right procedures that result in improvement. They are correctly following the the procedure for staying the same.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by pengipete

...and the inspired adjustments that require imagination and skill to implement them.

yes. yes!

[tboy]

Originally Posted by pengipete

...and the inspired adjustments that require imagination and skill to implement them.

...and maybe a context populated by minds capable of decoding the wisdom and value in those inspired adjustments, and offering constructive feedback that drives further inspiration.

[pengipete]

Nice answer tboy.

It means that we each decide on what constitues Quality and the higher standard expected by the few raises the level to the benefit of all.

I like that.

[tboy]

Yes sir! I teach a basic photo class 5 semesters, the exact same syllabus. It's a good program, and students get good info. But, finally, a kid has the gonads and the insight to tell me I might be spending a little too much time on surrealism. I review what I'm doing and realize that I'm messing up because of my own interests. A shift to increased focus (no pun) on basic composition, and the whole next class gets a "higher quality" product, with more value for that learning level.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by tboy

Yes sir! I teach a basic photo class 5 semesters, the exact same syllabus. It's a good program, and students get good info. But, finally, a kid has the gonads and the insight to tell me I might be spending a little too much time on surrealism. I review what I'm doing and realize that I'm messing up because of my own interests. A shift to increased focus (no pun) on basic composition, and the whole next class gets a "higher quality" product, with more value for that learning level.

Great example.


Quality can only be determined when measured against a 'desired outcome' I would say.

I mean it's not as if what you were teaching before was of poor quality I'm guessing. And certainly for the outcome you wanted at that time you followed all the steps to acheive it correctly.

What has changed, as you've pointed out, is 'focus' or put another way the 'desired outcome' is different, not the level of 'quality'.

The level of quality has not changed but the criteria you use to judge 'quality' has changed to include the suggestions of the young man you mention.

Quality is a moveable feast it seems to me. If you ask 'it' to sit still you will only be disappointed by 'it's' reaction.

Here's how I would ultimately define Quality. Quality is a word. And like all words it is only symbolic of an experience our nervous system is having in relation to other perceptions.
Since none of us have exactly the same nerous system or perceptions it seems ludicrous to try to arrive at a universal description. That doesn't however mean it's not a worthwhile effort.

[tboy]

yea. The variable that determines whatever "quality" is, is not inherent in the thing itself so much, but in our observations of the thing in question. In that sense, quality is akin to theories of observation in quantum physics, where nothing can actually be observed because observation itself creates a system of observed and observer where any change in one creates change in the other. The act of looking changes the observer which in turn changes the observed... etc...

Ideally, you observe without creating a system, but that's not possible. Even those who observed my teaching mistake and kept quite affected quality because they responded to the curriculum differently than they would have otherwise.

In that sense, I'd have to suggest that the quality has changed as a result of the young man's observation that caused me to observe, which compounds the system to interactions between not two, but now three, at the least.

Then, there's Einstein.

[PraiseCaster]

As a Quality Supervisor in the manufacturing arena, it boils down to this:

The right parts (within acceptable tolerances), through the right process (repeatable results), acceptable testing (proven results), meeting or exceeding the customers requirements (the goal).

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by tboy

yea. The variable that determines whatever "quality" is, is not inherent in the thing itself so much, but in our observations of the thing in question. In that sense, quality is akin to theories of observation in quantum physics, where nothing can actually be observed because observation itself creates a system of observed and observer where any change in one creates change in the other. The act of looking changes the observer which in turn changes the observed... etc...

Ideally, you observe without creating a system, but that's not possible. Even those who observed my teaching mistake and kept quite affected quality because they responded to the curriculum differently than they would have otherwise.

In that sense, I'd have to suggest that the quality has changed as a result of the young man's observation that caused me to observe, which compounds the system to interactions between not two, but now three, at the least.

Then, there's Einstein.

In fact I would suggest that since 'quality' is only an idea it can't change. You can ask it all you want but it won't hear you. It doesn't even have ears. Or does it?

I like that quantum stuff. I think it makes the universe alot more interesting. It certainly puts the boots to the crazy notion of objectivity. That couldn't have happened soon enough.

The people who actually believe in and worship objectivity seem to miss is that at the end of all that long row of 'objective' computers and machinery sits a human brain that ultimately 'interprets' all the objective data. Hmmm. Could that be introducing an element of subjectivity. Nah.
Not to mention that it was human beings who dreamed up all the measuring stuff to begin with. It all just began as an idea anyway. Yeah, that sounds objective

...where nothing can actually be observed because observation itself creates a system of observed and observer where any change in one creates change in the other. The act of looking changes the observer which in turn changes the observed... etc...

When you consider the above quantum observation it makes the fact that humans have self-reflexive conciousness alot more interesting doesn't it??

[PraiseCaster]

If you really want to understand Quality, check out any books written by Demming. That guy will open your eyes.

[PraiseCaster]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

In fact I would suggest that since 'quality' is only an idea it can't change. You can ask it all you want but it won't hear you. It doesn't even have ears. Or does it?

Quality must be built into a product. It cannot be asked to or mysteriously appear in a product.

Quality has parameters that are set by the engineer, the designer, the builder, and the customer. The parameters are set in the real world, governed by physical laws.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by PraiseCaster

The parameters are set in the real world, governed by physical laws.

Which real world? The one they told me about in physics class 30yrs ago or the one that physicists now insist is the real one. Or at least it's their best guess.

Physical laws? You mean like the 'laws' that govern electricity. Those immutable 'laws' that completely change when you create the conditions for superconductivity and then suddenly the so called 'laws' no longer apply? Those sort of 'laws'??

[pengipete]

The ultimate extent of Quality is perfection and one of the areas where science and religion agree is that there's no such thing as perfection in the physical universe. Even somerihng as understandable as Absolute Zero temperature is purely theoretical and can not exist even in space.

In fact science has a phrase - in Vacuo - to refer to a perfect system which is not sunbject to any external force or influence. It is used for mathematical modelling of physical principals because it removes all extraneous variables.

Once you understand the limits of aiming for perfection, the definition of Quality becomes a negative - how far short of perfection is the item. Since you can never reach perfection it becomes a measure of acceptable shortcomings - which is subjective.

[tboy]

Originally Posted by PraiseCaster

The parameters are set in the real world, governed by physical laws.

AAHHH. Einstein appears! OK. After all is said and done, there is a huge part of me that wants to believe this. It give me a sense of stability and confidence. But then, as Boneyguy says, what real world and which physical laws? It's a valid question.

Quality has to be determined against sets of parameters. Those parameters are determined by laws that can seem more nebulous than the inside of Brittany Spears' head (Please, no flames from fans. She's a public figure, and her recent behavior puts me well within my rights).

But even Einstein said that the length of a "moving" rod cannot be measured accurately. No wonder I can't tune up. I could tune "perfectly" before this occurred to me, now all my guitars are out. Maybe if I stand real still.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by PraiseCaster

As a Quality Supervisor in the manufacturing arena, it boils down to this:

The right parts (within acceptable tolerances), through the right process (repeatable results), acceptable testing (proven results), meeting or exceeding the customers requirements (the goal).

this is actually an anachronistic definition of Quality though. I'm pretty well versed in Deming's work... but his Quality is almost a brand rather than what conceptually most folks think of as quality. If you work in the field of quality control that is a completely different vision of what quality is although they do share some qualities... if that makes sense.

Deming's sense of quality could result in a commodity that was not quality so long as the requirements were set in a manner that would render that result..

We've been mixing terms pretty significantly in this thread... but, before we head down the Deming path (I'm a fan) lets just make sure that knowledge of Deming and 3.65 will get you a very average cup of coffee.

The whole "Deming would spin in his grave" stuff is not that valuable. First, Deming wouldn't spin in his grave if folks were kicking the tires about quality, he'd be pleased that a process had begun. Second, again, the concept of quality is loosely related to Deming but Deming would be the first to delineate that he is talking about processes etc not an intellectual concept of quality.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by pengipete

The ultimate extent of Quality is perfection and one of the areas where science and religion agree is that there's no such thing as perfection in the physical universe.

Then it's a good thing that most of the universe is not physical anyway. 99.99% of everything we see, touch,taste and smell consists of space between the 'physical' bits we're told. And even the physical bits aren't really solid, there just energy.

Originally Posted by pengipete

Even somerihng as understandable as Absolute Zero temperature is purely theoretical and can not exist even in space.

In fact science has a phrase - in Vacuo - to refer to a perfect system which is not sunbject to any external force or influence. It is used for mathematical modelling of physical principals because it removes all extraneous variables.

Now if you or I tried to convince others that we regularily visit a world in our imaginations that is perfect, without external influence or extraneous variables we'd be locked up. But if you go to school for way too long and and wear a long white cotton jacket everyday you can actually make a job out of it and get paid well apparently.

Man, I love this universe.

[odiemann]

But even Einstein said that the length of a "moving" rod cannot be measured accurately. No wonder I can't tune up. I could tune "perfectly" before this occurred to me, now all my guitars are out. Maybe if I stand real still.
tboy is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

If he said it, he was only paraphrasing Heisenberg (Uncertainty Principal). Every measurement is a little off because of three uncontrollable factors.

We've really deviated from "quality" and gone into another realm of concepts that only have to deal with quality for those who accept one basic premise. It seems like there would be a simpler, more universal definition.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by odiemann

........
We've really deviated from "quality" and gone into another realm of concepts that only have to deal with quality for those who accept one basic premise. It seems like there would be a simpler, more universal definition.

Blame it on those dang 'extraneous variables'.

[<jbc>]

Maybe to understand Quality you need to be a Student of beer distribution.

[PraiseCaster]

Originally Posted by getbent

........... the concept of quality is loosely related to Deming but Deming would be the first to delineate that he is talking about processes etc not an intellectual concept of quality.

That right there screams volumes!

It's the process: If the process can be mapped/documented, it can be evaluated. If it can be evaluated, it can be refined and improved upon. If it can be improved upon, quality will increase.

If a process tells us that wood grown in a certain region consistantly delivers the most desirable characteristics needed for your end product, your quality level will be higher using this demographically grown wood.

Does this mean that all quality related issues go away?

No. There are other factors also at play:

Health of the tree during its growth years

Care in harvesting

Quality of milling

Quality of handling

Human factors

Aesthetics of the wood

A documentable process can be overseen by process tools such as Gauge R&R Studies, and SPC (Statistical Process Control). These studies help you look at potential non-conformances, there level of severity, and maintaining process control.

The object is, is to get to a point where your process is repeatable. Your monitoring of the process is driven by continual improvement (demographically grown wood is better).

Yeah, Quality, Quality Assurance, Quality Control, it all starts getting deep. Sometimes I think you need to be a certified PHD (Piled High, and Deep!).

Well, excuse me, I gotta go run some charts, and finish off a Gauge R7R study