The Train Wreck that is American Idol

[getbent]

Originally Posted by micpoc

Wow. I'm sort of stunned by the positive comments here, grudging though some of them are. I've watched exactly four complete episodes of the show, plus bits of others here and there, and I really can't see what the appeal is; in fact, I find it positively nauseating. How is this "trainwreck" of a show anything other than Star Search with the public humiliation factor upped about a thousand percent??

Here's an insight into the mindset of the show: during the first season, I happened to catch the judges as guests on the Today show (for non-Americans, that's a morning news "magazine" show). During the conversation, the fact that Simon had called out a woman - don't recall whether she was an actual finalist or just someone who had tried out - for her weight was mentioned. The interviewer had the insight to question how Simon would rate Aretha Franklin. To his credit, Jackson said that Aretha IS an American Idol... but Simon, the grand poobah mastermind of the whole shebang, said simply "she would not win our competition."

Think about that. Then think about all the great singers who would NEVER get to the first round. Yes, I realize this isn't American Blues Belter, American Torch Singer, or American Whatever, so let's limit it to mainstream popular music. Most of the best-loved greats are highly idiosyncratic, unique singers who fit no known mold and who still grabbed us, because of OR in spite of their quirks; do you think AI is looking for that? Of course not; the entire conceit of the show is geared to selecting the most inoffensive, marketable, non-demanding, PR-malleable young singers they can. It's like a law firm hiring young associates fresh out of school, and none who rock the boat (no pun intended) need apply; it's not looking for artists, it's looking for interns. Where are the Ahmet Erteguns and the John Hammonds when we need them?

No offense intended to the show's fans, but how anyone can have any use for AI is beyond me. Not to be too idealistic about it, but everything that is wonderful and inspirational about music never makes it to Hollywood, from what I can see. The point about it being good family entertainment is a persuasive one but, I feel, an ultimately hollow one; the reliance on derisive commentary, and the encouragement of such in the viewership, aren't the sort of values I'd like to teach my kids, if I had any. If it is among the best things for families on TV (and I wouldn't question parents on this), then they have my sympathy. As Flat357 wrote, "I'm of the opinion that most people watch it for the mockery of people with little talent rather than the adoration of the minority who can actually entertain." How can this possibly be a good thing?

None of this should be taken as a knock against the singers themselves; it's just unfortunate that it takes a program such as this to get the American public excited about music, and then turns it into a spectator sport. It's not like the music biz lacked competition before AI, but to make the competition itself, rather than the art, the focus depresses me to no end.

Or am I being too harsh?

Not being too harsh, but you are completely missing/blind to what the appeal of the show is. First, I'll dispense with the mockery portion of it. The tried and true fans of the show don't watch it for the failure nor are their favorite shows the William Hung type shows... those are for very casual fans who do get a charge out of laughing at the self deception some folks have about their talent. someone will counter with the fact that the William Hung episodes (and ones like that one) garner the highest ratings... it is true perhaps but does not prove the point rather it shows that the folks who just want to see agonizing, embarassing failure are not the regular fan.

Folks who just dig this part of the show I think are probably pretty limited and probably like practical jokes that are more mean than funny and probably delight in scaring people. It takes all kinds...

Now... the part I think you don't get. Rags to riches stories are very interesting to a wide variety of ages and economic backgrounds. Getting a chance to completely be Cinderella is one that many quietly dream of....and while it may not be happening to us directly there is enough variety among the contestants that most people can identify with one or more contestants.

The point of this show is NOT to create pop stars... it is great when they go on to success but it is what happens DURING the competition that matters. Think of the show as a story and each week the episodes unfold more stories and no one knows exactly what will happen.

Now, about the example of Simon 'being mean' and ragging on a girl for her weight....

All good stories have to have villains, challenges have to threaten the protagonists, and people need to have a sense of how difficult show business is and that by chasing your dream you have to face the reality of the mean world. Does anyone think that folks that are obese get the same opportunities as those who are model thin? (rhetorical question)

AI sells hope to all of us. We get to watch ambitious young people who want to show what they can do and possibly change their lives by doing what they love and as we've all learned winning the show doesn't equal success but it doesn't doom to failure either! What matters is the week in, week out performance.

When I see the complaints about the contracts, the material, singing a song originally recorded in the 30's (but re recorded MANY TIMES in the 60's) it reminds me of girls who complain about how ugly bridesmaids dresses are... well, you don't go to the wedding for the bridesmaids dresses! You go for the the joining of the two people who love each other, two families joining, a celebration of new lives and, if you are single and lucky, getting a bridesmaid out of the ugly dress!

When I find myself seeing everything about something that is immensely popular as stupid... I recognize my failure to see how others see...

You may not like AI... you may feel competitive with it because you are chasing your dream your own way... but to not get that they are selling hope not singers and the cinderella dream and not commerce is to just completely miss it...

The fans of the show aren't dumb.... they know the flaws and failings... no need to remind them. We know Ryan Seacrest is a weenie... who could we get instead of him? Vince Gill is a great host, but he's busy!

As for Randy Jackson being a has been. Exactly. He HAS BEEN. He knows what its like...

so, no, you aren't too harsh at all... you just can't see it...

I remember taking a non linear math class once and one of the 'smartest guys' used to get furious at some of the problems because they just didn't go like he wanted them to... and the prof used to say 'folks who are stuck in thinking one way will not prosper here.'



(btw, daughtry did not get a better deal, his deal is with Simon Fuller... but it must have been a better deal than what Fuel offered him to join them!)


One last tiny point about the 'i'm not knocking parents who let their kids watch a show where a host tells someone that their weight will limit their career'. This is not why we watch the show, but without issues like this coming up and being a place where it can be discussed... what better way to discuss these issues? My experience growing up with coaches and teachers was that they could be pretty blunt with kids... not always positively.. some guys here think that is a good thing and is 'tough love.' I know enough about motivating people that I can usually find a different way... but, kids need to know the truth. The truth is (repeated research) that this stuff is a reality.

I want my kids to be successful and pursue their dreams and know how to do it without huge 'surprises'. Cruelty is never attractive, but having a character like Simon is a good thing because it doesn't just show him as an ogre but as a complicated and complex character...

[AngelStrummer]

I'm afraid I cannot stomach more than about 30 seconds of that crap. It almost makes me feel physically ill. I find it an insult to intelligence, culture and taste.

In fact any program in that vein (including the various "reality" programs) represent to me everything I despise about television, celebrity and commercial exploitation for it's own sake.

Let's be clear - I am in no way advocating that it should be banned, terminated or censored in any way. I just choose not to watch it, just like I don't stop in the street or rubber neck when there's an accident. I consider it the height of morbid curiosity and bad manners.

Rant over.

[studio1087]

My mom is 73....loves it.

Let them eat cake (I guess).

[superchicken_VI]

Originally Posted by Flat357

The best talent in the respective countries are normally found in bands playing the circuit , so why on earth havn't they started a band idol ?

They had one here this winter, I believe it was called "America's Next Top Band", and it was run by the American Idol production group. It was hosted by some guy I had never heard of, and judged by two guys I had no idea who they were and Sheila E.

The bands ranged from a bunch of kids that were trying to be rocker dudes (I mean like 10 years old) who annoyed the hell out of me to a Christian jazz big band that I had actually seen in concert before. Most of the performances would have gotten boo'd off of a local "Battle of the Bands" stage. There were 4 groups that reliably performed interesting, excellent music. I think that the 3 best bands made it to the end, and I couldn't disagree with the winner even though it wasn't my favorite band. I also think they're the least potentially marketable of the 3, so I don't know that much will come out of them.

The two guys ragged on the jazz big band, regardless of the performance. They were the most polished, and sounded professional--something most of the others never managed yet received praise. Only Sheila E had any consistency in her criticism as she didn't play favorites. I have no idea how they judges were coming up with their critiques, and I didn't enjoy them.

American Idol is about the personalities, and people fall in love with the people and not the voices. That's why they do 3/4 of the show on stories about the contestants, and not singing more songs. It's impossible to get the same level of intimacy with bands, and I think that will keep the "band" show format from succeeding.

[odiemann]

It has some appeal, especially when re-runs are normally running this time of year. But it is easy to read the intended outcome that the producers want this year. The focus was not on vocal ability alone. They are attempting to really reach some demographics they missed out on in the past two years.

I think that's why it's a train wreck to me this year, but still okay to have on in the background, if I am working on something else.

[Tony]

who will get kicked off. To see how good of a judge of talent "I am".

Last night, I picked directly the two women they were going to kick off. I felt like I was smart. They, IMHO, were absolutely the correct two women to kick off.

I did not get the two men. I still believe America voted two men off that should have been in the top 10. To me, IMHO, there were two other men that were clearly worse than the two that were voted off.

I think they could do a few things to shake up the show, however.

#1. Don't make the voting go down by gender. Once you get to the top 24, vote out the 4 worst at a time, not 2 by 2, but by talent.

#2. During the tryouts, show some of the better singers that do get the yellow tickets. They don't show a BUNCH of those people, in favor of a bunch of goofy people who aren't even trying. A couple of the goofy's OKAY, but not at the percentage they currently are showing.

[chet]

I can still say "I've never watched it".

[chet]

But I also can say that I couldn't do what those people do. Go in front of somebody like "what's-his-name" and get pounded like that and I know I would.

[Daddy Elmis]

I can't watch it. It's just waaay too hollywood. Every singer sounds the same -- all from the Mariah Carey school of "how many notes can I sing in one bar." It's like listening to Yngwie for an hour.

But, that's why they call it "pop" music.

[Brennantele]

I like American Idol. The live band is awesome. It's a show about music. If AI didn't exist, we wouldn't have this picture:



That's my argument.

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by Brennantele

I like American Idol. The live band is awesome. It's a show about music. If AI didn't exist, we wouldn't have this picture:



That's my argument.

Don't you just love the cold ?

Seriously though , it underlines my view exactly .

When did music stop making it's first impression through our ears , and suddenly start doing it through our eyes ?

TV and music don't mix

[micpoc]

Originally Posted by getbent

Not being too harsh, but you are completely missing/blind to what the appeal of the show is.

No argument there.

First, I'll dispense with the mockery portion of it. . . . . Folks who just dig this part of the show I think are probably pretty limited and probably like practical jokes that are more mean than funny and probably delight in scaring people. It takes all kinds...

Perhaps... but I still think the show and its producers have explicitly marketed and capitalized on mockery - even if it is dispensed with after the first few episodes of a season. I do wonder about what the more wide-ranging effects of these derisive attitudes will be; let's hope they're negligible.

Now... the part I think you don't get. Rags to riches stories are very interesting to a wide variety of ages and economic backgrounds. Getting a chance to completely be Cinderella is one that many quietly dream of....and while it may not be happening to us directly there is enough variety among the contestants that most people can identify with one or more contestants. The point of this show is NOT to create pop stars... it is great when they go on to success but it is what happens DURING the competition that matters. Think of the show as a story and each week the episodes unfold more stories and no one knows exactly what will happen.

Do you think the contestants feel that way? Of course, rags to riches stories have mass appeal, but I seriously doubt that the participants enter the contest so they can act as a mirror for the viewers to project their fantasies on to. I would venture that most of them enter... to BECOME POP STARS. And the particular brand of pop that the show hangs up as the gold standard is what I, and many others I know who don't care for the show, find so particularly offensive. And, if what you're saying is true, then it also stands that the music is secondary, even tangential, to the story being told. You make an interesting point, though; some of the contemporary reality shows (AI, Survivor, and The Real World) are new ways of telling stories. I'm guessing that you're overstating the implicit storyline aspect of AI... I could be wrong, though, as I don't watch the show.

Now, about the example of Simon 'being mean' and ragging on a girl for her weight.... All good stories have to have villains, challenges have to threaten the protagonists, and people need to have a sense of how difficult show business is and that by chasing your dream you have to face the reality of the mean world. Does anyone think that folks that are obese get the same opportunities as those who are model thin? (rhetorical question)

My problem with Simon's remark wasn't so much his deriding the girl for her weight (tacky as that was), but his later retort about Aretha Franklin. A world where where an Aretha couldn't be a star - the world of American Idol - isn't a world I want to be in, and I think it's a bad world to be selling as entertainment to the masses. The answer to your rhetorical question is obvious.

AI sells hope to all of us. We get to watch ambitious young people who want to show what they can do and possibly change their lives by doing what they love and as we've all learned winning the show doesn't equal success but it doesn't doom to failure either! What matters is the week in, week out performance.

If that's what they're trying to sell me, thanks but no thanks, I think I'll check Craigslist or eBay first: the cost that AI charges is too steep. ALL so-called talent shows run on dreams, hope, and stardust, but AI tosses in jeers, bile and a vitriolic sensibility that is as insufferable as it is unnecessary.

When I see the complaints about the contracts, the material, singing a song originally recorded in the 30's (but re recorded MANY TIMES in the 60's) it reminds me of girls who complain about how ugly bridesmaids dresses are. . . . . . . When I find myself seeing everything about something that is immensely popular as stupid... I recognize my failure to see how others see...

I don't know anything about this contracts situation; I love old songs; I enjoyed the AI episode that featured Brian May and Roger Taylor from Queen... yet at the same time, I find a remarkable lack of energy and life in most of the performances that I've heard from the show, and I'm willing to bet that it's not the fault of the talent themselves. Being able to recognize one's inability to see the other person's POV is to be admired, but there's also something to be said for having strong, well-considered opinions.

You may not like AI... you may feel competitive with it because you are chasing your dream your own way... but to not get that they are selling hope not singers and the cinderella dream and not commerce is to just completely miss it...

I'm not pursuing a professional musical career and am in no sort of competition with AI, thanks. There are many ways to tell rags to riches stories; I simply find the way AI does so to be distasteful and demeaning, and possibly encouraging of such attitudes in its viewership.

As for Randy Jackson being a has been. Exactly. He HAS BEEN. He knows what its like...

I NEVER said Randy Jackson was a "has been." Period.

so, no, you aren't too harsh at all... you just can't see it...

Again, agreed: I don't get it. I've never been a fan of Michael Jackson either, but I certainly appreciate the fact that, at least at one time, he was massively popular and meant a lot to a certain generation... as did, say, Lawrence Welk. But there are other quite ugly things about AI that I and others can quite plainly see; if that's "not getting it," so be it.

I remember taking a non linear math class once and one of the 'smartest guys' used to get furious at some of the problems because they just didn't go like he wanted them to... and the prof used to say 'folks who are stuck in thinking one way will not prosper here.'

What you're describing is petulant behavior; I hope my criticism of AI is not mistaken for such. I'm neither furious nor stuck in one way of thinking.

One last tiny point about the 'i'm not knocking parents who let their kids watch a show where a host tells someone that their weight will limit their career'. . . . . The truth is (repeated research) that this stuff is a reality.

You're interpolating a couple of different points I made, but fair enough. Reality can be what we wish to make it.

Thanks for replying, getbent; we thoroughly (and I mean THOROUGHLY) disagree about AI, but I appreciate your comments.

[micpoc]

Originally Posted by Flat357

When did music stop making it's first impression through our ears , and suddenly start doing it through our eyes ?

I always say, "I listen to music with my ears; what organ are YOU using?"

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by micpoc

I always say, "I listen to music with my ears; what organ are YOU using?"

I'll have you know I am highly organised

[sultan59]

Saw Randy Jackson play with Gregg Wright in a little club in Baton Rouge way back in the late 70s. Nobody kew who he was, but after he took his first bass solo everybody sure wanted to know. That guy is a great musician.
Simon usually is spot on in my opinion, if a little harsh.
One thing, why does EVERY SONG have to have the half step up key change? Pretty darn annoying.

[getbent]

mipoc, sorry for implying that you'd made the randy jackson comment... I was collecting from the whole thread.

Agreed, that you don't like the show. No biggie for me, I just wanted to try to explain what perspective was missing. I watch with my kids and am glad that there is a place for kids to get a shot. On the weight thing... WE BOTH LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE A YOUNG ARETHA WOULD HAVE TO BE THIN! Neither of us like it or respect it but it is reality! Ruben's career pfttt. He has a wonderful voice!

and last, YES, the kids on that show know that the show is only a SHOT at the brass ring... but they also recognize they are only part of the story (hence the silly ads and skits they do etc) it is just a narrative where part of the reason contestants will play is A) Opportunity for furthering career B) Fun! hang out with other young ambitious people, eat for free, meet celebs, be a kind of celeb, hang out in hollyweird etc C) beats hanging out waiting for phone to ring in small hometown.

thanks for the conversation on this micpoc... no heat from either of us and just sharing perspectives!

[tboy]

Yea, gotta pull that. Whole different thread

[Tony]

direction (Hey, I started this thread ).

I've never really considered the weight thing. Mandisa was a big girl, and she did really well, until the end when she blew it. Not sure about Ruben.

Aretha is simply HUGE now. But if she were Mandisa size, (like the size she was in the Blues Brothers Movie, certainly not thin) and was really the Aretha voice, then there would be no way she WOULDN'T win.

Right?

[tboy]

Originally Posted by sultan59

One thing, why does EVERY SONG have to have the half step up key change? Pretty darn annoying.

Without it, how will the crowd know when to stand, clap and yell?

[Nick JD]

The worldwide Idol franchise is no more than a Karaoke competition. It captures all that is wrong with the music industry. The emotionally manipulated viewer sits captivated on their couch, cell-phone in hand, ready to line the TV executive's pockets.

Just another "Stupid Tax" to remove money from fools via their phone bill.

The judges are actors, trained to provoke the biggest reaction in the home viewer ... and get them spending. "He called her fat! I'm going to vote for her. I'm on her side. She's gonna win. He can't call her fat!"