Will Pods replace amps?

[endzone]

I started another thread about seeing the Doobie Brothers this weekend and mentioned that they had no amps on the stage and were playing through Pods. The 3rd guitar player (not Johnson or Simmons) was even playing through one of those Line 6 Variax guitar type "things". Personally, I didn't like the sound they were putting out. It sounded very brittle and synthetic to my ears. But, to 99% of the people in that facility, I'm sure it sounded just like the recordings.

It got me thinking though, ....one day, technology might just make amps obsolete or at least not as necessary. It sure would make touring a lot easier. Obviously, you would need a really good sound system and sound man/engineer kind of person. But hey... it could happen.

I'm not sure how that would work at home or at small venues. You still would need something to push sound through so that would probably still have to be an amp rather than a "sound system". But you never know what ideas might be lurking out there.

What are some of your thoughts on this?

[whodatpat]

Did rack mount amps and affects replace the tube combo and stomp boxes?

I think after a while the novelty of the magix box sort of wears off and we all look for the analoug earthy original. That said if they ever perfect the sound, who knows what tomorrow brings. I for one will always Jones for a real Tweed Champ.

[Tremo]

Not only no, but HELL no.

[cacibi]

No....next question.

[stxrus]

no

steve

[petebradt]

They can have my tube amps when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I can't fully express how disappointed I am the Doobs were using Pods.

Line 6 is an evil company, IMO.

[Jorge]

Maybe not the pods on the market like we see today, but we have to honest here.. We live in an age were tonal quality has been changed to distortion quality. There is less and less kids (yes and I know that I am a kid) these days that actually cares about the sound of a tubeamp, the blues is slowly fading away and so will the classic rock do. BB King and Albert king changed into Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton, they changed into Mötley Crüe and Guns N Roses, they changed into Muse and Coldplay. And I can see the trend continuing like this untill there isn't any amp anymore. Or in the humble words of The Specials - "I met a girl from area 3, she told me that she worked in a chicken factory..."

[vwtele]

I bought a pod and thought it was the greatest. All those amps and tones to model. I can't remember the last time I ran my guitar through it -except to use the build-in tuner. I am back to playing my SFVR. Different sound? You bet. Not sure when/if I will use the Pod again.

[eryque]

Honestly, there aren't too many big venues where you get a decent tone anyway. The Line6 products are more than capable of getting a decent tone, so if the Doobs sounded bad it was either because the room sucked or because they like sounds that you don't. Old guys who have been playing loud rock'n'roll all their lives... what are the chances that maybe their ears are shot and it did sound good to them? ;)

[RumorsofsurF]

I think there are still way too many tube snobs out there,(myself included) young and old. Honestly, though, there are many SS amps that sound very good these days.

I still think PODs and their clones sound horrible, though. I like a nice clean, organic sound. Not so processed.

[BrianF]

The answer is no...and even Line6 now believes that. They have a new Spider amp out that includes POD type effects driving a TUBE based amp. I heard some shredder playing through one today at GC and was impressed...from the little that I heard...sounded real good.

[stephent2]

Maybe only for the Hearing Impaired.

(no baby seals were harmed in the posting of this response).

[getbent]

While I prefer tube amps to modellers... clearly pods and such HAVE already made inroads in many venues. So, anyone who says NO has to consider the Doobie Bros thread. I've been to a few places where the whole band (drummer included) were using electronic 'small boxes' fed direct.

Do I think they'll predominate? Not for awhile, hopefully not as long as I can hear well... but there aren't fewer modellers being made and some guys I respect really like them... time will tell!

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by Jorge

We live in an age were tonal quality has been changed to distortion quality.

I play "clean" a lot because I play at room volume. I'm kinda burned out on created distortion at low volumes. So I just take what my amp gives me at the volume I'm playing. If we crank up the volume then the driven amp sound comes. But if we're just playing at low volume then that is clean.

In our church band we use Line6 and I have my presets for clean twin sound while everyone else has their modeled distortion. I always get complements for how good my guitar sounds.

[teleclarkster]

What Tremo said!

[neocaster]

They WILL grow in popularity. Solid state technology is getting better, and becoming viable for many who know tone and have used tube amps for years. "Replace" is a word I would never use to describe any foreseeable events. There is just no corner of my imagination where somebody isn't hauling a Twin Reverb up three flights of stairs three times a week.

[claudel]

I dunno about Pods replacing amps, but the Vox Tone Lab might.

[studio1087]

The Pretenders recorded their last CD with PODs....no amps. Weird.

Gear heads will always love gear. I don't want to go to a concert and see a bunch of guys plugged into little red plastic things.

I think that if you gigged in a wedding cover band or played backing tracks for radio commercials, a POD would be a clever toy.

I like my amps. I love my amps. I'll pass on the POD Kool-Aid.

[andy__woods]

Originally Posted by claudel

I dunno about Pods replacing amps, but the Vox Tone Lab might.

oh how I would love to get my hands on a ToneLab!

[neocaster]

Originally Posted by andy__woods

oh how I would love to get my hands on a ToneLab!

You could find one on eBay for under $400 shipped. I paid $480 for mine new. I find it limited as an effects processor, but one of the most amazing pre/modelers I could have hoped for. I'm keeping an eye out for a Crate Power Block 150 at a bargain to keep me from spending the $600 for an AD120VTH head.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by studio1087

The Pretenders recorded their last CD with PODs....no amps. Weird.

Thanks for letting me know. An album I will not buy.

[claudel]

I saw a band called "The Fab Four" which, oddly enough, is a Beatles tribute band.

They go thru the whole time span of the Beatles complete with "Ed Sullivan" as the MC
of the show and a number of costume changes.

They had a bunch of Vox amp shells in the backline with first generation Tonelabs
hidden inside and the guitars and bass sounded well, fab from the audience.

Great cleans and listenable distorto sounds with the bonus of a perfect mix in the mains
without any bleedthrough from loud stage amps.

Anyway, I'm a ToneLab fan these days to the point where I liquidated the amp farm and antique collection.

I started with a first generation one, but I sold it in favor of the newest ToneLab LE when it came out.

The patches need tweaking, but the ability to have a large tone palette and total sound level control is pretty nifty.

[f69tele]

I use a POD 99% of the time, but it's what's feasible for me and what I do. In regards to going to a concert and seeing a bunch of guys plugged into little red boxes, I could care less. If the guy can play, he can play. If he sucks, it doesn't matter what he's/she's plugged into. I look at talent, not equipment. Brent Mason, James Burton, Redd, Brad, Don Rich... all these guys could play a cigar box with rubber bands on it plugged into a computer speaker still make every one of us drool. :)

[claudel]

Originally Posted by neocaster

You could find one on eBay for under $400 shipped. I paid $480 for mine new. I find it limited as an effects processor, but one of the most amazing pre/modelers I could have hoped for. I'm keeping an eye out for a Crate Power Block 150 at a bargain to keep me from spending the $600 for an AD120VTH head.

I got my TL LE for $399.00 new.

That's pretty much the going rate at all the online money pits.

Shop around and get free shipping...

[Bill]

Unlike the rest of the world, I'm waiting to go to a rock concert where they play into a few nice amps in isolation booths, with the sound transmitted directly into my earphones, with my own EQ and volume controls.

I haven't been to a concert in years, because I am tired of paying $100 per ticket for screechy distortion and overwhelming bass with no vocals coming through. It's a communal experience I have absolutely no interest in ever sharing again.

[Gibson]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Thanks for letting me know. An album I will not buy.

The question is, would you have ever known it if you'd bought the album but nobody had told you?

FWIW (nothing) IMO, etc:

On the subject of Pods: I'm an analogue guy at heart, simply because I'm old-school enough that that's what I like. However I can't deny the inevitable changes that technology brings.

78 became 33 1/3 became eight-track became cassette tape became CD became MP3... video tape was replaced by DVD, and now Blu-ray seems to be coming to the fore. I consider it something like evolution.

I like tube amps, but the reality is that digital technology is changing the way we do things. That's not to say that everyone will be using Pods in 10 years' time, but we shouldn't be surprised when people find new ways to do things.

I don't mean to be corny, but like the man said:

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

[Freight Twang]

9 out of 10 "Helen Keller's" approve of the Line 6 tones.

VIVA LE TUBE AMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[woodman]

people who play on huge stages in mega-venues are not like You And Me. their problem is delivering a monstrous amount of sound to tens of thousands of people. these days, if i'm playing for a hundred, i feel like it's a big gig. so for me, power tubes pulsating blue, a rectifier tube on the verge of meltdown, and an agonized 12" or 15" speaker screaming for its life, miked through a modest PA, fills the bill quite well!

but in the Oakland Coliseum, i might be singing a different tune.

[fauxsuper]

Geez, EVIL??????

Seriously, the digital stuff isn't quite there yet, but they get closer every new generation. They'll eventually be able to be able to emulate enough parameters to convince most people.

Nobody has yet created a carbon fiber violin that sounds like a Stradivarious, and I notice that concert halls pay over six figures for a new Steinway Concert Grand. The best digital emulations don't sounld exactly like a Twin Reverb or a Marshall Stack, either, yet.

They do already sound close enough that it would be hard to tell when you're listening through a PA system in a typical large venue, or even in a bar when every instrument is miked. (Actually, especially in a bar: An 8 channel powered mixer into a pair of typical PA speakers is not exactly Hi-Fi. Seriously, how much of your "tube purity" is left after running through a PA system that's a mass of IC's powered by a solid state or digital amp that's probably being overdriven? Or what emerges from a beer soaked floor wedge with piezo tweeters?) I've heard myself play through a Pod into a decent PA in a medium sized bar using a wireless, and I was quite happy with what it sounded like 20 feet from the stage compared to the "normal" sound when I used an amp. It sat in the mix real nice, and you could more easily set the volume on the PA. I had a little trouble getting used to hearing myself mainly in the monitors, and I didn't enjoy the sound of my playing quite as much. Everyone else seemed to like the lower stage volume this seemed to result in however. I bet what the Doobies hear from their monitors is not too far off from what they would hear with amps on stage.

That said, I much prefer having control over my own sound, and also, I have to admit when I sound better (to myself, if nobody else) , I think I'm inspired to play better.

On the other hand, how many of you play in bands that have keyboardists that haul around a Hammond and a couple of Leslies, to say nothing of a Piano? Not too many do anymore.

I think the future holds some promise:

Picture this: PA Systems that sound as good as a decent home stereo and a mixing board sophisitcated enough to provide a studio quality mix back to you over super fidelity monitors. Super-high quality direct boxes or isolation type boxes with real speakers (drivin by a tube amp for traditionalists). It's all coming, this stuff is going to improve a lot over the next decade, and prices are likely to drop as well.

The current boom in smaller amplifiers sort of points this way. The iconic Marshall Stack, Fender Showman, Twin and Super Reverb, and even the AC-30 were all created for conditions and volumes that most of us will never need.

I will admit that for years I used amplifiers that were just too powerful, 40+ watts is generally too much for me to use without pissing most people besides myself off. For me, 15 to 25 watts is just about right for most situations. I have a Mass attenuator, if I need to cut it from there.

Things progress slowly but surely: typical PA systems years ago were horrid: 35 watt PA amps with Atlas Horns, or sure Vocal Masters. Monitors generally didn't exist.

Stage volumes over the years have generally moved downward, at least for what I play and who I play with. Monitors get better and better, amp $ per watt looks more favorable all the time, and mixers of higher quality get more and more reasonable in price.

(Editorial aside: There is virtually no excuse, except "pilot error" for sound as bad as I hear in a lot of venues today, particularly big ones.)

I like being able to hear everyone in the band, and also be able to hear myself. I recently discovered beam blockers and I can not only hear myself better, but I can hear everyone else better as well. Cool.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE tube amps and I have three of them. and I think we're now in the Golden AGE of tube amplifiers. There are more of them available now than EVER, and at reasonable prices. Sure, you can spend a load on some boutique amp, but you can also buy a gigable amp for what would have been $65.00 (or less) in 1965. On the other hand, if someone were to make an all digital amp that sounded better to than what I now have, and was cheaper and lighter as well, I'd probably buy it. But, I'm generally happy as a pig in a ditch with what I now have, so who cares?

And there are now many more high quality small amps than ever before, as well. I think those who prefer to, will be able to use their tube amps, and those who don't wish to will find that alternatives to tubes will be much improved as well. Everybody wins.

[Brian blaut]

pods will never take over tube amps.

but vox's might

Where ever art is being made, emotion will play into it. And if you ear can hear any difference at all, tube amps will remain the most desired. Even if modelers can completely NAIL it, tube amps will still be here because most people would rather have the real deal than an emulation.

But modelers are here to stay my brother. The hybrid versions are getting especially good at providing a real desire for many musicians:

-beginner's like them because they have a lot of candy and are affordable
-pro's like them because they can leave the big, expensive, and or valuable equipment at home.

I think the thing currently with the modelers is that they sit in the mix well, almost too well. They don't jump out or cut through the way a tube amp does. But they do have their uses and purposes and I for one am really glad to live in a time where I can have such an amp. They keep me rockin' when its 2 in the morning and the family is sleeping. -Thats when I practice. It keeps me recording at a momments notice. And although I lack the gettus to get a proper tube amp right now, I'm still in the game when I play out. I get more compliments on my sound plugging the Vox tonelab straight into the board than my counterpart using his expensive Mesa all tube combo.

When I saw Moot Davis, Pete Anderson was using 2 line6 Flextones. Sounded good and I'm no Helen Keller. Insulting those who aren't dead set purists by indirectly calling them deaf is just plain silly.

[petebradt]

Geez, EVIL??????

Yup. Evil.

[crawdad]

Here's the problem with modeling at this stage of the game: companies are building these devices to a price point and not to what the cutting edge is capable of. $199.00 for a Pod II--do you really expect it to sound as good as every amp it models?

I don't doubt that if they increase the sampling rate, do some high end R&D, and throw in a few tricks--like maybe some tubes, lol!--companies like Vox and Line6 could probably make a killer modeler in the $1000 range that would satisfy even tube addicts. The problem is, they are marketing their wares to non-professional players who want bang for the buck. Right now, they are cool for what they are, but the "real thing" still has a dimension that the models do not have.

If they did make a real professional grade product that sounded as good as the amps it claims to emulate, I would drop my tube rigs in a heartbeat. No doubt. It would be wonderful to walk into a gig with my modeling rig, guitar and monitor and be able to deliver state of the art tones.

Eventually, all the research will yield such a box and tube amps will become a thing of the past. Right now, its still no contest. Line6 needs to consider the pro level players and make a box for them exclusively. Close is not good enough.

I own a Pod. I use it in the studio all the time. Its a great tool there, but for live, its not even close to what I can get with my amp. Someday, that will all change.

[Guitfiddler]

PODs/amp modelers will never replace or surpass good ol' tube amps. I go to a lot of live shows, and play at a few gigs a month, and from standard rock to country, to punk/emo bands I see, 80-90% of them are still playing tubed amps w/stompboxes.

Professional, giging musicians want the tone and reliability real amps offer. Computers break. Digital stuff craps out. If something goes wrong with my amp, it usually takes about 30 seconds to go over what could be wrong and get it right, try that with a pod or modeling amp. I had a cyber-twin that sounded great, but after 4 years started to crap out just like an old computer should.

I don't agree that there is a trend by professionals toward PODs, this includes Coldplay and Muse. They both use tube amps in the studio and on stage. They also use rack mounted effects, but key elements of their sound isn't coming from a digital-wonder-board.

PODs are mostly used by people trying to recreate the sounds of musicians they listen too without having to buy all their gear.

PODs emulate classic tube amp sounds-and fall very short, tube amps will never be designed to emulate some digital POD sound. End of story.

[David Barnett]

Has anyone said "no" yet?

[chabby]

I got a POD for CHristmas about 2002 I think - the same year my wife got me the 52RI. Now why do you think she got me a POD? SO she wouldnt have to listen to my loud amp. I used the POD about 10 times all right after I got it.
Got a DRRI about 2 months later and never plugged into the POD again. In fact I'm looking at it right now. It's kind of a decoration if you will all maroon colored sitting on top of my gun cabinet.

[giantslayer]

Tube amps will never go away entirely.

Modelers will continue to improve and get more and more use on stage.

Vox modelers sound a LOT better than Line6 modelers presently, and have a patent on their "valve reactor," so other manufacturers will have to find other ways to get tube tone (such as the new L6 Spiders).

There are a handful of high-end modelers that are made in the $1000+ range, but they have a very, very, small market compared to the >$400 floor boards. I've heard that the Fractal AxeFX is hands down better than any of the cheaper floor boards (including Vox) from a couple people who have owned/used all the major brands. It's also got a ton of top quality effects. It is a rack unit, unfortunately, which makes it less convenient than a floor unit. If you're interested in a non-budget modeler, there are some available.

[chabby]

Wow Bill: I don't know what concerta youve been going to but I haven't been to one with sound as you describe for years and years - like the seventy's or so. Heck, I've seen B. Raitt, Steely Dan, Sanatana, Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart, T. Petty, the Eagles, Loggins & Messina and on and on at the Gorge in George Washington which is a huge outdoor ampitheater in the middle of the Washington Desert and the sound is chrystalline as in your living room - only better.

I will never get rid of my warm and sometimes very hot tube amps no matter what. They are among my favorite toys and a big reason I love the electric guitar.

[tiktok]

When digital audio first hit the market, most people declared it to be "better than analog". Except for the people who thought it sounded horrible right from the start.

Then the next generation of digital came out, and suddenly most everyone agreed that there was something a little bit lacking in the old digital stuff, and that the new sounded "almost as good as analog". Except for the people who thought it sounded horrible right from the start.

Then the third generation came out, and wow, this stuff was really good. Yep, it was pretty much as good as analog. And when you listened to the first generation stuff? Ee-yew, that was some cold harsh digital gunk. And the soundstage imaging--did you notice how bad that was? And the upper-order even harmonics? Yeah, me too. What were we thinking!? And then there were the guys who still thought it sounded horrible.

Then the next version came out--what's that you say? 24-bit? Oh WOW!!! This sounds really good--my god, it's (all together now) ALMOST AS GOOD AS ANALOG! But that second generation stuff--hoo boy, those reverbs sound AWFUL!!! WHAT WHERE WE THINKING!!!?

And so on. It's the audio engineering version of Zeno's paradox, where you go half the distance, then half the remaining distance, and then half that, and never quite get there. It's the same way with digital modeling amps. A tweed Deluxe still sounds awesome, decades later. And top-of-the-line digital from ten years ago, sounds horrible. I wish it was otherwise, I've owned plenty of digital modeling stuff--it's very convenient and affordable, but when audio quality is your top priority, a POD isn't on the top of anyone's list. It's like chocolate frozen yogurt--it tastes great, until you have a side-by-side taste test with real ice cream.

At this point I'm not sure I'd want to bet on digital modeling replacing a solid-state analog amp for tonal quality.

[blacklove]

I saw Weezer on a tour where they used the rackmount PODs (although the stage was backlined with a wall of empty Marshall cabinets ;-)) and it sounded just fine. Good show in a big auditorium.

I reckon it's only a matter of a few years before the modeling vs. tube thing is going to be negligible. The geezers will grumble and gnash their gums in protest. Young people will continue to make music with whatever they can get their hands on. Per usual...

I'm looking forward to the days where they start making progress in making NEW tones, wild NEW sounds instead of calibrating it to some moldy old precious standard. Get over it already. People like Zachary Vex are taking us new places in the pedal world. Why isn't that happening in the amp world?

[Jackson Jackson]

Originally Posted by blacklove

I saw Weezer on a tour where they used the rackmount PODs (although the stage was backlined with a wall of empty Marshall cabinets ;-))

I happen to know of many BIG name acts that to the exact same thing. PODs supply the sounds, and the empty cabs provide the stage vibe.

I think many of you would be surprised to know just how common this is these days. I'm not saying it's "right" or "wrong", just that it's VERY common practice.

The bottom line is live sound is tricky and expensive, and if the sound guys and gals can use "modern" tools to their lives easier, they will fight to do so. Case in point, in ear monitors. Now, there are many reasons in ear monitors are good for vocalists and stage performers, but what drives the market are front of house sound engineers trying to control stage volume by eliminating wedge monitors. And by the way, in ear monitors are HORRIBLE for some vocalists! They pull certain singers off pitch something fierce - in the same way that singing with studio headphones is a killer for some singers.

I've used PODs from time-to-time, and even preferred them when recording guitartists that have a very "effected" sound, ie: new metal and such. While I do not own one, I do have the SansAmp software plug in for my Pro Tools rig. Although I rarely use it, when I need it, it's great! Just about EVERY tool has it's place, but I would NEVER dream of replacing my tube, or even solid state amps with a POD.