Red Sox or the Tribe ? Talk with your head, not your heart!!

shakedancer · October 11th, 2007, 08:22 AM

What do you think? I like the Sox based on experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribe wins. Good young club, should be 7 games of fun!!

Filthy McNasty · October 11th, 2007, 09:39 AM

I am a card carrying member of The Red Sox Nation, there for it is impossible for me to leave my heart out of it, but I will try.

Starting pitching: Beckett v.Sabbathia - even

Schilling v. Carmona- Schil. is 9-2 2.02 era career post season. edge to Bos.

Matsuzaka v. Westbrook - Daisuke has much better stuff than Westbrook only if he can keep from getting to fine with his pitches when he gets ahead of the opposing hitters. Edge to Bos. if Dice-K stays aggressive.

Wakefield v. Byrd - Both are very similar pitchers because neither has outstanding stuff, but both of them are smart and know how to pitch.These guys can both be a nightmare for oppossing teams when they are on. However Wakefield has a bad back and hasn't pitched in a while and Byrd is coming of an excellent performance to close out the yankees. Edge to Cleveland.

Bullpens: Papelbon v. Borowski - Borowski is a fine closer and any team would be well served to have him, but he is no Papelbon. Edge to Bos.

Okijima v. Perez - Okijima had to be shut down because of a tired arm but seems to be back to full strength. The yankees could not touch Perez. Edge to Cleveland.

Long relief -To many to go through one by one but, the Sox had, on paper, the best bullpen in the A.L. during the regular season. Edge to Boston.

Defense - The Sox (.986)had the second best fielding percentage in the A.L. with the Indians (.985)right behind them. Even.

Offense- Catcher - Varitek v. Martinez - no contest edge to Cleveland.

First Base - Youkilis v Garko - similar averages, Garko more homers, Youk more runs batted in. Even.

Second Base - Pedroia v. Barfield - same runs batted in but Pedroia hit .317 to Barfield's .243. Edge to Bos.

Shortstop - Lugo v. Peralta - again RBI's the same. Peralta hit .270 to Lugo's .237 due to Lugo's horrible first half (.197) but he turned it around in the second half (.280) Lugo stole 29 more bases than Peralta. Edge to Bos.

Third Base - Lowell v. Blake - Like catcher no contest but this time edge to Bos.

Right Field - Drew v. Nixon/Gutierrez - Even

Center Field - Crisp v. Lofton - Lofton had a higher AVE. and OBP. Crisp more RBI's and solen bases. Even.

Left Field - Ramirez v. Michaels - Edge to Bos.

D.H. - Ortiz v. Hafner - Ortiz beats Hafner in AVE., HR, & RBI. And nobody is clutch like David Ortiz. Edge to Bos.

On paper one would have to say that the Boston Red Sox are favorites over the Cleveland Indians, but the games are played on the field and not on paper. I think that it will be a tough series for both teams unlike the first round. I say the Sox in six.

edhead · October 11th, 2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filthy McNasty

I am a card carrying member of The Red Sox Nation, there for it is impossible for me to leave my heart out of it, but I will try.

This is why people make fun of Red Sox fans. They only think with their heart, and leave their heads out of it.

Where did you get the lineups to compare?

Lofton in CF? Have you not heard of Grady Sizemore?

Barfield at 2nd? Not since Asdrubal Caberra was called up mid season.

LF Micheals? Lofton has played there since he was acquired.

Are there any Chowds that actually follow baseball?

goldtopper · October 11th, 2007, 11:19 AM

The Tribe'll take it, it is their year. Sabathia, Hafner, Byrd, Perez, Sizemore and Lofton make this team tough to beat.

refin · October 11th, 2007, 11:26 AM

I think it will go 7.............but the Red Sox will take it.

ac15 · October 11th, 2007, 12:20 PM

This is too close for me to call, but I'm a White Sox fan who actually likes the Indians for some reason (probably because they gave the White Sox such a hard time in 2005 that I have a healthy respect for them - in fact, I think their 05 team was better than this year's team, but the Sox just happened to be even better). I can't stand any of the other AL Central teams, and rooted against the Tigers last year. I think "on paper" this looks to be one of the most evenly matched series I can recall. Both teams are very balanced, but I hope Cleveland wins.

shakedancer · October 11th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Egghead, I think you make fun of Red Sox fans , not others. Fans are the same in every city, so drop your attitude!!

my prediction, Red Sox in 6 or 7. I think the Yanks just came up flat for that series, but does anyone really believe Cleveland is a better team than the Yankees? I think the Tribe comes back down to earth against the Sox. But I really do repect the Tribe, like the manager too!

BakersMan · October 11th, 2007, 02:16 PM

Experience takes the cake in an evenly matched series - Schilling, Beckett, Manny, Papi, Timlin, Wakefield, etc. have all been there before. Plus, the home field advantage is a bonus.

I'll go Sox. But that's no big surprise, being that I'm a die-hard...I hope it goes 7 either way, it'll make up for the baseball drought we're in this week.

Dr. T · October 11th, 2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

...I think the Yanks just came up flat for that series, but does anyone really believe Cleveland is a better team than the Yankees? I think the Tribe comes back down to earth against the Sox...

I also think Cleveland's win over the Yankees looked like a near thing, I wasn't impressed by their defense. The Sox' ability to come from behind instead of fading (like they used to), plus the home field advantage? Sox in 6.

sudancat · October 11th, 2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by refin

I think it will go 7.............but the Red Sox will take it.

NO,NO,NO....I hope the Indians take it in 4. I'm not an Indians fan, I just dont like the red sox

alright, everybody get ready and hold on.....

edhead · October 11th, 2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

but does anyone really believe Cleveland is a better team than the Yankees?

Only people who watched the series and realized that the Yankees had no starting pitching, no timely hitting, and a suspect bullpen, other than those people, you may be correct.

Remember the title of this thread is talk with your head, and I am still waiting for a well reasoned arguement as to why the Sox will win.

I see it as a very even matchup with whoever wins the 1st game taking the series. I like the Tribe's chances in that game with CC.

stantheman · October 11th, 2007, 08:05 PM

This Series will be about MANAGING.
Il Maestro knows more about The Cleveland Indians than The Cleveland Indians know about The Cleveland Indians.
More than The World Series, The ALCS will be "The Francona Code".
I see a masterpiece in the making for The Ages.
2007 is Major League Baseball's "8-1/2".
This Season will be discussed with intensity 60,70,80 years from now.
I honestly believed that for me everything beyond '04 would be an aftershock but now I'm quite certain that '04 was a tremor - a warning of things to come.

stantheman · October 11th, 2007, 08:15 PM

FWIW, I'm seriously THRILLED that Our Man Mr.Trot Nixon is in the thick of this thing. One of THE GREATEST TEAM PLAYERS that ever was or will be.

And I take the liberty of speaking for ALL of Red Sox Nation regarding this matter.

shakedancer · October 11th, 2007, 08:19 PM

Edhead, I guess because the Sox have tons more playoff experience than the Tribe, that means alot. Look what happened with Wang, no playoff experience, couldn't handle the pressure. We have a Cy Young candidate starting game one who is also a 7th game World Series winner . Schilling is a 2 time 7th game World Series winner. Your team is a green playoff team, that could hurt them as the pressure of this series will be more intense than the last.

beachkos · October 11th, 2007, 08:36 PM

but based on the 2 teams rosters and experience, I think The Sox take it.However, The Tribes top 2 pitchers are "lights out" and could be the deciding factor in the series especially if they take the first two games. Offensively, on the year The Sox were hitting about 11 points higher than the Tribe and had better numbers in every category except home runs, where The Tribe hit 178 to Boston's 166. I'll take the Sox in 7 for now, but Cleveland looks to be a constant force to be reckoned with in the next few years.

stxrus · October 11th, 2007, 09:56 PM

if you are talking experience then the yankess should be in it. but they ARE NOT and i've got to cast a vote for the tribe. cleveland has the heart and a strong young team.

hell, in a perfect world the rangers would win

steve

edhead · October 12th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

Edhead, I guess because the Sox have tons more playoff experience than the Tribe, that means alot. Look what happened with Wang, no playoff experience, couldn't handle the pressure. We have a Cy Young candidate starting game one who is also a 7th game World Series winner . Schilling is a 2 time 7th game World Series winner. Your team is a green playoff team, that could hurt them as the pressure of this series will be more intense than the last.

I don't think 1 world series appearance in almost 90 years is tons of playoff experience. I was getting ready to write something about you do have a good amount of experience in the ALCS, but I looked it up and this is only the 3rd trip this decade. And only 1 time did you win it. How much of the present team was there in 2004? I only count 3 impact players (Schilling, Ortiz, and Manny)

As I've said before game one CC v Beckett will be a fantastic game and the team winning that game takes a huge advantage in the series. I know in the opening game of the Yankees series CC came out wound up and was overthrowing, I don't think you see that this time.

The Tribe, though young appears to be handling the pressure very well, they are a loose team that importantly is playing as a team.

We will know a lot more about this series in 24 hours.

Filthy McNasty · October 12th, 2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edhead

This is why people make fun of Red Sox fans. They only think with their heart, and leave their heads out of it.

Where did you get the lineups to compare?

Lofton in CF? Have you not heard of Grady Sizemore?

Barfield at 2nd? Not since Asdrubal Caberra was called up mid season.

LF Micheals? Lofton has played there since he was acquired.

Are there any Chowds that actually follow baseball?

You are right. I did make some mistakes and I apologise to all of the Indian fans for them. I did it as quickly as I could after I got home after finishing my work week, five consecutive 12 hour shifts. Grady Sizemore was a glaring and embarassing ommission on my part. However I would still give a slight edge to Boston at second base. Lofton V. Ramirez ... The Indians have been playing great ball for the past seven or so weeks and will be a difficult team to beat. I could not believe it when the yankee fans at work wanted the Indians over the Angels in the first round, they asked for it and they got it. They are not the same team that the Sox and yankees beat up on in july and august. They are tough and the games are played on the field and not paper but, I will stick with the Sox in six.

As far as leaving the heart behind and only using your brain that is in the fair weather friend's guide to loyalty. Laugh all you want because I could not really careless. Besides, why was Sting voted the worst song writter of all-time? All brain and no HEART!

ac15 · October 12th, 2007, 12:44 AM

This World Series has the potential to be great, I think. I think both Boston and Cleveland are great teams and it's hard to say who is the favorite at this point. I think it's that close. I initially assumed the AL winner would stomp any NL team, but I'm starting to get a feeling the Rockies are so hot, they may not lose another game. I think they can give Boston or Cleveland a run for their money and maybe go all the way. They're peaking at the right time.

Colo Springs E · October 12th, 2007, 06:59 AM

....Rockies in 6 too.

Boston will probably (finally) cool down the Rockies, and win the WS in 6 also.

Dr. T · October 12th, 2007, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edhead

I don't think 1 world series appearance in almost 90 years is tons of playoff experience...

The Sox have actually been in the WS a number of times in those 90 years. They've only won once.

Not to necessarily dispute the rest of your post, edhead.

genny · October 12th, 2007, 01:28 PM

Red Sox, fans turning into what they loathe
Mark Kriegel
FOXSports.com, Updated 21 minutes ago

With the exodus under way and the Angels about to be swept at home, a chant went up behind the visitors' dugout: Bos-ton Red Sox. Bos-ton Red Sox. Such a mantra, this hymn without harmony, didn't come as much of a surprise. After all, America has become a Red Sox Nation, Boston now being baseball's biggest draw.

Rather, what was stunning about the drone, is how much the droners sounded like Yankees fans.

If there really was a Curse, as Red Sox fans like to say, perhaps it came with a codicil: You become what you hate.

With the Yankees now vanquished and leaderless, and their principal owner's faculties in question, the Red Sox can no longer be portrayed with much sympathy. The sentimental underpinnings on which the Red Sox Nation was created owed everything to that team in the Bronx. The Red Sox can be underdogs only in relation to the Yankees.

But now that notion has perished. The Red Sox are the best team in baseball. They should beat the Cleveland Indians and win the World Series without too much difficulty. Still, it's difficult to root for a team that can pay $14 million per to J.D. Drew, who, by the way, won't even start in Game 1 of the ALCS.

According to Opening Day salary figures, the Red Sox began the season as a $143 million enterprise (this excludes the $6 million salary they'd pay a mid-season pickup Eric Gagne). The Indians, by contrast, had a $61 million payroll. That gap — approximately $82 million — is considerably more than the gap between the Red Sox and the Yankees.

The Yankees have committed any number of profligate and mercenary acts (the $28 million prorated salary for Roger Clemens comes first to mind, though Jason Giambi and Carl Pavano are up there, too). Still, a good chunk of the Yankee payroll has gone to proven players who never played for another major league team: Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Hideki Matsui and, in years past, Bernie Williams.

The Red Sox, by contrast, have not exactly been models of continuity. Julio Lugo, for example, is their fourth starting shortstop since 2004, when they won the World Series with Orlando Cabrera. Of the 25 players on Boston's World Series roster, only eight remain with the team: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, Mike Timlin, Jason Varitek, Tim Wakefield, Doug Mirabelli and Kevin Youkilis (who didn't get a World Series at-bat). Of those eight, it bears mention, only two made their big league debuts with Boston.

It's been almost five years since Red Sox president Larry Lucchino labeled the Yankees "The Evil Empire." It was a great line, and sportswriters everywhere remain indebted to him. But let's frame its context. His utterance followed the Yankees' signing of Jose Contreras, a move that once again demonstrated the Empire's capacity for expensive folly. Still, one imagines Lucchino vowing it would never happen again.

In 2007, the Red Sox outbid everyone, including the Yankees, for the rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka. Those rights came at a price of $51 million. And though that figure is not reflected in the Red Sox payroll, it represents almost 84 percent of the Indians' Opening Day roster budget, which was 23rd in the majors. Then again, Cleveland is almost a big market team compared to the Rockies and the Diamondbacks (25th and 26th in payroll at $54 million and $52 million, respectively).
advertisement

But back to the ALCS, which begins tonight at Fenway Park. Perhaps you shall hear from those venerable voices of Red Sox Nation, Doris Kearns and Stephen King. Or maybe it will be a newcomer, like Kevin Garnett. They will extol the virtues of Boston's baseball team. But what are those, exactly?

Save for a withering owner, the Red Sox are not at all unlike their former nemesis. They are an empire of their own now. And if you rooted for the Red Sox because they weren't the Yankees, aren't you now obligated to root for the Indians?

Do the math. Add the salaries of C.C. Sabathia, Fausto Carmona, Grady Sizemore, Franklin Guttierrez, Jhonny Peralta, Chris Gomez, Rafael Betancourt, Rafael Perez and Ryan Garko.

Now what do you have?

About a half million less than J.D. Drew.

durango jon-boy · October 12th, 2007, 02:14 PM

It's impossible for me to speak from the head and not the heart on the matter of the red sox...It will be the sox...no doubt.

shakedancer · October 12th, 2007, 04:09 PM

Genny your back!! They seen Derek Jeter on the golf course today. HA!! Did you pay your bet to give $1000.00 to the TPPI if the Sox went further than the Yanks? HAHA!!!

That article you just printed is from a biased NY sportswriter. The big sports media is out of NY. What would you expect from a jerk like that!! Your Yanks are done. Chokers 7 years in a row!!! Ps. Wait til the contracts come up for the Cleevland stars, the payroll to keep them will be vup there with the Yankees. Want to talk about JD DREW, Tell us about Carl Pavano!!!

detuned · October 12th, 2007, 04:18 PM

CC is a great pitcher, sure, but the Sox have a pretty decent #1 too - 20 wins with a shutout against Anaheim good enough for you?

2 - Carmona's 19 wins vs. the Big Schill's 7 inning shutout & post-seson pedigree. Hard to call.

ed, your closer has a 5 & change ERA. Worried at least a little?

I actually like the Tribe a lot, & would have no trouble rooting for them in the
WS, but I don't think I'll have to.

Sox in 6 - possibly 7.

My opinion is worth what you paid for it. :-)

genny · October 12th, 2007, 04:23 PM

hey shakedancer -

I don't remember you jumping up to take that bet?

where was all this almighty attitude before????

Oh yeah, now I remember, you're such a 20/20 hind sight hero, that once things happen you're all ready to jump all over it.

so, about that article:

YOU'RE WHO HE IS TALKING ABOUT

I love how you declare FACTS such as PAYROLL as somehow being BIASED.

Sorry the article is too complicated for you to understand.

Here's the gist of it: your Red Sox are a great team with a lot of talent, THAT WAS PURCHASED FOR TOP DOLLAR, kinda like what the yankees do???

I think that the internet is a little too complicated for you....

I mean YOU are "that guy" in a "telecaster forum" with a "STRAT avatar", that only talks about NEW ENGLAND BASED SPORTS TEAMS....

so why don't you get out of the public library you're sitting in, go back to your job at TARGET, and try to forget about all those really gross things you thought about Heather Anne Peel, before you "found out"...

p.s. you are a douche bag.

shakedancer · October 12th, 2007, 04:24 PM

Edhead, you are funny!! One game don't make a series. How long you been watching baseball? That's why they play 7 games. Your playoff experience explanation is laughable!! Seems you guys haven't won since 1948 which means you have none. This will be your one shot. Your star players will be looking for big money when their contracts are up. Half will be playing for the Yanks, the other half for the Sox.

shakedancer · October 12th, 2007, 04:27 PM

Genny your a sick Kid!!!! Jeter is looking for a Caddy today, you available? You should be thrown off the Forum.!!!!!

genny · October 12th, 2007, 04:30 PM

wow..... brilliant.

but expected.

jimd · October 12th, 2007, 05:13 PM

Here's a good (an not just because they picked the Indians) position by position comparison.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

Bottom line, they picked the Indians based on their better pitching. I like their chances, but am worried about their tendency to go into a team-wide hitting slump.

Go Tribe!

shakedancer · October 12th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Well I'm worried too!! The Tribe are good!! Check out the final standings. Not only did they both win 96 games, they both had virtually identicle home and road records. I never seen 2 teams so close.

stantheman · October 12th, 2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genny

wow..... brilliant.

but expected.

Hey Kid and welcome back!
I'm hoping You took/and are taking my advice because it's already paid for my G-Dec btw it's the $269 Model.
There's still time for you to bet The ALCS - and I'm absolutely glad that I didn't take Your offer - a grand is an awful lot of money for someone as young as you to say byebye to. FWIW I too took a severe whippin' when I was close to Your age on the Ali vs. Norton Fight; Norton beat Ali and still lost.

Do the right thing.

Remember - when You lose, lose like a Gentleman.

edhead · October 12th, 2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakedancer

Edhead, you are funny!! One game don't make a series. How long you been watching baseball? That's why they play 7 games. Your playoff experience explanation is laughable!! Seems you guys haven't won since 1948 which means you have none. This will be your one shot. Your star players will be looking for big money when their contracts are up. Half will be playing for the Yanks, the other half for the Sox.

Been watching for about 40 years. My point is that if Boston lost with their ace, they would have a tough time with the drop off in pitching (don't start in on Schilling, he's a season away from being were Clemens is now). And if Cleveland lost (which as of now looks like it will happen) I don't like their chances with Westbrook or Bryd, so they would have a extremely tough time winning 4 games.

Re the playoff experience explanation, I believe you were the one that claimed the Sox had TONS of playoff experience, which I quess means 4 players.

Yes most of the players will be gone when their contracts are up, probably to the Yankees or the Red Sox, since their really is no difference in those two clubs.

Read Genny's post about how the Nation has become what a few years ago they despised. A soulless team that relies on money, not a farm system. I used to like the Sox, but they have achieved the impossible. I despise them more than the Yankees. I'd give props to any Chowd that admitted as much, but you only hear gloating.

shakedancer · October 12th, 2007, 09:45 PM

no farm system, hmmn!! Jacoby Ellsburys, Dustin pedroia, Yuokalis, Buckholtz, John Lester,Papelborn, Manny DelCarmen ETc. Truth of the matter, the Sox probably have as many or more kids from their farm on the team as any team in baseball. Do your own research instead of reading an article by a sportswriter who is a Yankee fan. Many more like Hanley Ramirez who was traded for Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett. Weather you like the Sox or not, they are the most beloved team in Baseball.

I suppose if Cleveland had the money the Sox do they would be unlike the Yanks and Sox. Again you might not like the sox, but I like the Tribe, have since I was a kid. Rocky Colivito!! Your a good guy, you love your team!!

BakersMan · October 13th, 2007, 02:01 AM

Yep, them young guns for the Tribe really came out firing.

10-3?

Boston has no farm system? Really? Check out our lineup and minor league system right now. One of the best in the Majors - I grew up near Pawtucket (Paw Sox, AAA affiliate) and lived in Portland (Sea Dogs, AA affiliate since 2001) and saw the talent the "new" ownership is grooming.

But still, they're playing 7, so here we go!

edhead · October 13th, 2007, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BakersMan

Boston has no farm system? Really? Check out our lineup

D Pedroia Farm Sys
K Youkilis Farm Sys
D Ortiz
M Ramirez
M Lowell
B Kielty
J Varitek Farm Sys
C Crisp
J Lugo

Pitchers
Wakefield Farm Sys
Papelbohm Farm Sys
Beckett
Schilling
DiceK

1/3 of starting lineup and number 4 pitcher and closer

Yep, built upon the Farm System TONS of Farm System (thanks snakedancer, I now know that 4 or 5 = TONS)

Lets look at the Tribe

G Sizemore Farm Sys
A Cabrera Farm Sys
T Hafner
V Martinez Farm Sys
R Garko Farm Sys
J Peralta Farm Sys
K Lofton
F Gutierrez Farm Sys
C Blake 3B

Pitchers
Sabbathia Farm Sys
Carmona Farm Sys
Westbrook
Byrd
Borowski

2/3 of starting lineup & top 2 pitchers

Filthy McNasty · October 13th, 2007, 03:11 AM

Both Wakefield (Pirates) and Ortiz (Twins) were castoffs and didn't cost the Sox a dime. Varitek (Mariners) was involved in a trade along with Derek Lowe for Heathcliff Slocume. Beckett and Lowell were trade aquisitions in which the Marlins got the outstanding Hanley Ramirez in return. Schilling was traded to Boston. Crisp also a trade. Keilty (A's) was picked up off of waivers. They gave as well as recieved and then paid them when they got to Boston. So that leaves Manny, Drew, Matsuzaka, & Lugo as free agent signings. Apparently Edhead follows baseball as closely as I do.

Actually, from top to bottom the Indians are a better team than the yankees. I refer mostly to their superior pitching staff and defense, and consistant day to day lineup, you know who is going to play. With the yankees it is who will DH today? Who will play first and when are we going to pinch hit for him or send the defensive replacement? Who is going to play left? You should never underestimate the value of stability of a lineup.

macheesmo3 · October 13th, 2007, 03:27 AM

I'd really LIKE to see the Tribe win , as they have been waiting for a WS win forever ( and the Red Sox got one 3 years ago ) . But deep , in my heart , I know that the Sox are just too balanced and almost without weakness .
Monster lineup
Great Starting Pitching
Great Bull Pen
Pretty good Bench too

Not much weakness there .
On the baseball forum I hang out at , I picked the Sox in 6 . But that was under the assumption that either Sabathia or Carmona would get a road win in Boston . If carmona doesn't come through tomorrow , I'd go Sox in 4 or 5 .

BakersMan · October 13th, 2007, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filthy McNasty

Actually, from top to bottom the Indians are a better team than the yankees. I refer mostly to their superior pitching staff and defense, and consistant day to day lineup, you know who is going to play. With the yankees it is who will DH today? Who will play first and when are we going to pinch hit for him or send the defensive replacement? Who is going to play left? You should never underestimate the value of stability of a lineup.

But don't overestimate it, either. The BoSox had the most juggled lineup in the majors, and ended up with the best record and a World Series run that's looking pretty good right now.

Good point about the farm system, Filthy. You develop your farm system for trade value as well as home-grown talent - sometimes it works (Hanley for Lowell and Beckett) and sometimes it doesn't (Jeff Bagwell, anyone?

)

Filthy McNasty · October 13th, 2007, 08:53 AM

I don't overestmate it, but juggling your lineup in august and september is to be expected, juggling your lineup for the playoffs is not what you want. The Sox had everyone ready to go by the last homestand of the season.

The Sox payroll has been around 140 mil. for three years now. I think that last offseasons spending spree is what bothers people, including Red Sox fans. plus the fact that Drew, Lugo, & Matsuzaka have been so inconsistant all year.

October 11th, 2007, 08:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	What do you think? I like the Sox based on experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribe wins. Good young club, should be 7 games of fun!! __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE Last edited by shakedancer; October 11th, 2007 at 08:58 AM.

October 11th, 2007, 11:19 AM	#4 (permalink)
goldtopper Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell Age: 47 Posts: 1,173	The Tribe'll take it, it is their year. Sabathia, Hafner, Byrd, Perez, Sizemore and Lofton make this team tough to beat. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

October 11th, 2007, 11:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
refin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida Panhandle Age: 53 Posts: 2,361	I think it will go 7.............but the Red Sox will take it. __________________ "For You,Lord,are good,and ready to forgive,and abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You." Ps. 86:5 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/refin_music.htm MASTER VOLUME? WHAT'S A MASTER VOLUME?

October 11th, 2007, 02:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Egghead, I think you make fun of Red Sox fans , not others. Fans are the same in every city, so drop your attitude!! my prediction, Red Sox in 6 or 7. I think the Yanks just came up flat for that series, but does anyone really believe Cleveland is a better team than the Yankees? I think the Tribe comes back down to earth against the Sox. But I really do repect the Tribe, like the manager too! __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 11th, 2007, 08:05 PM	#12 (permalink)
stantheman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: White Mountains Posts: 5,389	This Series will be about MANAGING. Il Maestro knows more about The Cleveland Indians than The Cleveland Indians know about The Cleveland Indians. More than The World Series, The ALCS will be "The Francona Code". I see a masterpiece in the making for The Ages. 2007 is Major League Baseball's "8-1/2". This Season will be discussed with intensity 60,70,80 years from now. I honestly believed that for me everything beyond '04 would be an aftershock but now I'm quite certain that '04 was a tremor - a warning of things to come. __________________ Somebody Loan Me A Dime

October 11th, 2007, 09:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
Filthy McNasty Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: upstate N.Y. Age: 39 Posts: 732	I am a card carrying member of The Red Sox Nation, there for it is impossible for me to leave my heart out of it, but I will try. Starting pitching: Beckett v.Sabbathia - even Schilling v. Carmona- Schil. is 9-2 2.02 era career post season. edge to Bos. Matsuzaka v. Westbrook - Daisuke has much better stuff than Westbrook only if he can keep from getting to fine with his pitches when he gets ahead of the opposing hitters. Edge to Bos. if Dice-K stays aggressive. Wakefield v. Byrd - Both are very similar pitchers because neither has outstanding stuff, but both of them are smart and know how to pitch.These guys can both be a nightmare for oppossing teams when they are on. However Wakefield has a bad back and hasn't pitched in a while and Byrd is coming of an excellent performance to close out the yankees. Edge to Cleveland. Bullpens: Papelbon v. Borowski - Borowski is a fine closer and any team would be well served to have him, but he is no Papelbon. Edge to Bos. Okijima v. Perez - Okijima had to be shut down because of a tired arm but seems to be back to full strength. The yankees could not touch Perez. Edge to Cleveland. Long relief -To many to go through one by one but, the Sox had, on paper, the best bullpen in the A.L. during the regular season. Edge to Boston. Defense - The Sox (.986)had the second best fielding percentage in the A.L. with the Indians (.985)right behind them. Even. Offense- Catcher - Varitek v. Martinez - no contest edge to Cleveland. First Base - Youkilis v Garko - similar averages, Garko more homers, Youk more runs batted in. Even. Second Base - Pedroia v. Barfield - same runs batted in but Pedroia hit .317 to Barfield's .243. Edge to Bos. Shortstop - Lugo v. Peralta - again RBI's the same. Peralta hit .270 to Lugo's .237 due to Lugo's horrible first half (.197) but he turned it around in the second half (.280) Lugo stole 29 more bases than Peralta. Edge to Bos. Third Base - Lowell v. Blake - Like catcher no contest but this time edge to Bos. Right Field - Drew v. Nixon/Gutierrez - Even Center Field - Crisp v. Lofton - Lofton had a higher AVE. and OBP. Crisp more RBI's and solen bases. Even. Left Field - Ramirez v. Michaels - Edge to Bos. D.H. - Ortiz v. Hafner - Ortiz beats Hafner in AVE., HR, & RBI. And nobody is clutch like David Ortiz. Edge to Bos. On paper one would have to say that the Boston Red Sox are favorites over the Cleveland Indians, but the games are played on the field and not on paper. I think that it will be a tough series for both teams unlike the first round. I say the Sox in six.

October 11th, 2007, 12:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
ac15 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Location: CHICAGO, IL. Posts: 916	This is too close for me to call, but I'm a White Sox fan who actually likes the Indians for some reason (probably because they gave the White Sox such a hard time in 2005 that I have a healthy respect for them - in fact, I think their 05 team was better than this year's team, but the Sox just happened to be even better). I can't stand any of the other AL Central teams, and rooted against the Tigers last year. I think "on paper" this looks to be one of the most evenly matched series I can recall. Both teams are very balanced, but I hope Cleveland wins.

October 11th, 2007, 02:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
BakersMan Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Topsfield, MA Age: 31 Posts: 250	Experience takes the cake in an evenly matched series - Schilling, Beckett, Manny, Papi, Timlin, Wakefield, etc. have all been there before. Plus, the home field advantage is a bonus. I'll go Sox. But that's no big surprise, being that I'm a die-hard...I hope it goes 7 either way, it'll make up for the baseball drought we're in this week.

October 11th, 2007, 08:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
stantheman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: White Mountains Posts: 5,389	FWIW, I'm seriously THRILLED that Our Man Mr.Trot Nixon is in the thick of this thing. One of THE GREATEST TEAM PLAYERS that ever was or will be. And I take the liberty of speaking for ALL of Red Sox Nation regarding this matter. __________________ Somebody Loan Me A Dime

October 11th, 2007, 08:19 PM	#14 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Edhead, I guess because the Sox have tons more playoff experience than the Tribe, that means alot. Look what happened with Wang, no playoff experience, couldn't handle the pressure. We have a Cy Young candidate starting game one who is also a 7th game World Series winner . Schilling is a 2 time 7th game World Series winner. Your team is a green playoff team, that could hurt them as the pressure of this series will be more intense than the last. __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 11th, 2007, 08:36 PM	#15 (permalink)
beachkos Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Newburgh, New York Age: 54 Posts: 685 5 Photos	I hate to say this......... but based on the 2 teams rosters and experience, I think The Sox take it.However, The Tribes top 2 pitchers are "lights out" and could be the deciding factor in the series especially if they take the first two games. Offensively, on the year The Sox were hitting about 11 points higher than the Tribe and had better numbers in every category except home runs, where The Tribe hit 178 to Boston's 166. I'll take the Sox in 7 for now, but Cleveland looks to be a constant force to be reckoned with in the next few years. __________________ "The key to avoiding a shark attack isn't necessarily in being able to swim faster than the shark, rather the key lies in being able to swim faster than the person you're swimming with. " Beachkos - circa 1972

October 11th, 2007, 09:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
stxrus Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2007 Location: St. Croix, USVI Age: 57 Posts: 918	if you are talking experience then the yankess should be in it. but they ARE NOT and i've got to cast a vote for the tribe. cleveland has the heart and a strong young team. hell, in a perfect world the rangers would win steve

October 12th, 2007, 12:44 AM	#19 (permalink)
ac15 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Location: CHICAGO, IL. Posts: 916	This World Series has the potential to be great, I think. I think both Boston and Cleveland are great teams and it's hard to say who is the favorite at this point. I think it's that close. I initially assumed the AL winner would stomp any NL team, but I'm starting to get a feeling the Rockies are so hot, they may not lose another game. I think they can give Boston or Cleveland a run for their money and maybe go all the way. They're peaking at the right time.

October 12th, 2007, 06:59 AM	#20 (permalink)
Colo Springs E Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 5,779 5 Photos	Sox in 6... ....Rockies in 6 too. Boston will probably (finally) cool down the Rockies, and win the WS in 6 also. __________________ "Enjoy your life, be good to kids, don't do meth..." -Colin Cowherd

October 12th, 2007, 01:28 PM	#22 (permalink)
genny Banned Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LA.CA.. Age: 23 Posts: 151	Red Sox, fans turning into what they loathe Red Sox, fans turning into what they loathe Mark Kriegel FOXSports.com, Updated 21 minutes ago With the exodus under way and the Angels about to be swept at home, a chant went up behind the visitors' dugout: Bos-ton Red Sox. Bos-ton Red Sox. Such a mantra, this hymn without harmony, didn't come as much of a surprise. After all, America has become a Red Sox Nation, Boston now being baseball's biggest draw. Rather, what was stunning about the drone, is how much the droners sounded like Yankees fans. If there really was a Curse, as Red Sox fans like to say, perhaps it came with a codicil: You become what you hate. With the Yankees now vanquished and leaderless, and their principal owner's faculties in question, the Red Sox can no longer be portrayed with much sympathy. The sentimental underpinnings on which the Red Sox Nation was created owed everything to that team in the Bronx. The Red Sox can be underdogs only in relation to the Yankees. But now that notion has perished. The Red Sox are the best team in baseball. They should beat the Cleveland Indians and win the World Series without too much difficulty. Still, it's difficult to root for a team that can pay $14 million per to J.D. Drew, who, by the way, won't even start in Game 1 of the ALCS. According to Opening Day salary figures, the Red Sox began the season as a $143 million enterprise (this excludes the $6 million salary they'd pay a mid-season pickup Eric Gagne). The Indians, by contrast, had a $61 million payroll. That gap — approximately $82 million — is considerably more than the gap between the Red Sox and the Yankees. The Yankees have committed any number of profligate and mercenary acts (the $28 million prorated salary for Roger Clemens comes first to mind, though Jason Giambi and Carl Pavano are up there, too). Still, a good chunk of the Yankee payroll has gone to proven players who never played for another major league team: Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Hideki Matsui and, in years past, Bernie Williams. The Red Sox, by contrast, have not exactly been models of continuity. Julio Lugo, for example, is their fourth starting shortstop since 2004, when they won the World Series with Orlando Cabrera. Of the 25 players on Boston's World Series roster, only eight remain with the team: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Curt Schilling, Mike Timlin, Jason Varitek, Tim Wakefield, Doug Mirabelli and Kevin Youkilis (who didn't get a World Series at-bat). Of those eight, it bears mention, only two made their big league debuts with Boston. It's been almost five years since Red Sox president Larry Lucchino labeled the Yankees "The Evil Empire." It was a great line, and sportswriters everywhere remain indebted to him. But let's frame its context. His utterance followed the Yankees' signing of Jose Contreras, a move that once again demonstrated the Empire's capacity for expensive folly. Still, one imagines Lucchino vowing it would never happen again. In 2007, the Red Sox outbid everyone, including the Yankees, for the rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka. Those rights came at a price of $51 million. And though that figure is not reflected in the Red Sox payroll, it represents almost 84 percent of the Indians' Opening Day roster budget, which was 23rd in the majors. Then again, Cleveland is almost a big market team compared to the Rockies and the Diamondbacks (25th and 26th in payroll at $54 million and $52 million, respectively). advertisement But back to the ALCS, which begins tonight at Fenway Park. Perhaps you shall hear from those venerable voices of Red Sox Nation, Doris Kearns and Stephen King. Or maybe it will be a newcomer, like Kevin Garnett. They will extol the virtues of Boston's baseball team. But what are those, exactly? Save for a withering owner, the Red Sox are not at all unlike their former nemesis. They are an empire of their own now. And if you rooted for the Red Sox because they weren't the Yankees, aren't you now obligated to root for the Indians? Do the math. Add the salaries of C.C. Sabathia, Fausto Carmona, Grady Sizemore, Franklin Guttierrez, Jhonny Peralta, Chris Gomez, Rafael Betancourt, Rafael Perez and Ryan Garko. Now what do you have? About a half million less than J.D. Drew.

October 12th, 2007, 02:14 PM	#23 (permalink)
durango jon-boy Banned Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The Greatest state of Arizona Posts: 624	It's impossible for me to speak from the head and not the heart on the matter of the red sox...It will be the sox...no doubt.

October 12th, 2007, 04:09 PM	#24 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Genny your back!! They seen Derek Jeter on the golf course today. HA!! Did you pay your bet to give $1000.00 to the TPPI if the Sox went further than the Yanks? HAHA!!! That article you just printed is from a biased NY sportswriter. The big sports media is out of NY. What would you expect from a jerk like that!! Your Yanks are done. Chokers 7 years in a row!!! Ps. Wait til the contracts come up for the Cleevland stars, the payroll to keep them will be vup there with the Yankees. Want to talk about JD DREW, Tell us about Carl Pavano!!! __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 12th, 2007, 04:18 PM	#25 (permalink)
detuned Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Halloweentown, MA Posts: 480	CC is a great pitcher, sure, but the Sox have a pretty decent #1 too - 20 wins with a shutout against Anaheim good enough for you? 2 - Carmona's 19 wins vs. the Big Schill's 7 inning shutout & post-seson pedigree. Hard to call. ed, your closer has a 5 & change ERA. Worried at least a little? I actually like the Tribe a lot, & would have no trouble rooting for them in the WS, but I don't think I'll have to. Sox in 6 - possibly 7. My opinion is worth what you paid for it. :-) __________________ Master of Disaster on the Stratocaster

October 12th, 2007, 04:23 PM	#26 (permalink)
genny Banned Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LA.CA.. Age: 23 Posts: 151	hey shakedancer - I don't remember you jumping up to take that bet? where was all this almighty attitude before???? Oh yeah, now I remember, you're such a 20/20 hind sight hero, that once things happen you're all ready to jump all over it. so, about that article: YOU'RE WHO HE IS TALKING ABOUT I love how you declare FACTS such as PAYROLL as somehow being BIASED. Sorry the article is too complicated for you to understand. Here's the gist of it: your Red Sox are a great team with a lot of talent, THAT WAS PURCHASED FOR TOP DOLLAR, kinda like what the yankees do??? I think that the internet is a little too complicated for you.... I mean YOU are "that guy" in a "telecaster forum" with a "STRAT avatar", that only talks about NEW ENGLAND BASED SPORTS TEAMS.... so why don't you get out of the public library you're sitting in, go back to your job at TARGET, and try to forget about all those really gross things you thought about Heather Anne Peel, before you "found out"... p.s. you are a douche bag.

October 12th, 2007, 04:24 PM	#27 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Edhead, you are funny!! One game don't make a series. How long you been watching baseball? That's why they play 7 games. Your playoff experience explanation is laughable!! Seems you guys haven't won since 1948 which means you have none. This will be your one shot. Your star players will be looking for big money when their contracts are up. Half will be playing for the Yanks, the other half for the Sox. __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 12th, 2007, 04:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Genny your a sick Kid!!!! Jeter is looking for a Caddy today, you available? You should be thrown off the Forum.!!!!! __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 12th, 2007, 04:30 PM	#29 (permalink)
genny Banned Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LA.CA.. Age: 23 Posts: 151	wow..... brilliant. but expected.

October 12th, 2007, 05:13 PM	#30 (permalink)
jimd Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Age: 42 Posts: 777	Here's a good (an not just because they picked the Indians) position by position comparison. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1 Bottom line, they picked the Indians based on their better pitching. I like their chances, but am worried about their tendency to go into a team-wide hitting slump. Go Tribe!

October 12th, 2007, 05:16 PM	#31 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	Well I'm worried too!! The Tribe are good!! Check out the final standings. Not only did they both win 96 games, they both had virtually identicle home and road records. I never seen 2 teams so close. __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE

October 12th, 2007, 09:45 PM	#34 (permalink)
shakedancer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: north of Boston Posts: 1,652	no farm system, hmmn!! Jacoby Ellsburys, Dustin pedroia, Yuokalis, Buckholtz, John Lester,Papelborn, Manny DelCarmen ETc. Truth of the matter, the Sox probably have as many or more kids from their farm on the team as any team in baseball. Do your own research instead of reading an article by a sportswriter who is a Yankee fan. Many more like Hanley Ramirez who was traded for Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett. Weather you like the Sox or not, they are the most beloved team in Baseball. I suppose if Cleveland had the money the Sox do they would be unlike the Yanks and Sox. Again you might not like the sox, but I like the Tribe, have since I was a kid. Rocky Colivito!! Your a good guy, you love your team!! __________________ "If you don't like the Blues, you got to have a Hole in your Soul." Luther Allison JOE Last edited by shakedancer; October 12th, 2007 at 10:27 PM.

October 13th, 2007, 02:01 AM	#35 (permalink)
BakersMan Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Topsfield, MA Age: 31 Posts: 250	Yep, them young guns for the Tribe really came out firing. 10-3? Boston has no farm system? Really? Check out our lineup and minor league system right now. One of the best in the Majors - I grew up near Pawtucket (Paw Sox, AAA affiliate) and lived in Portland (Sea Dogs, AA affiliate since 2001) and saw the talent the "new" ownership is grooming. But still, they're playing 7, so here we go!

October 13th, 2007, 03:11 AM	#37 (permalink)
Filthy McNasty Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: upstate N.Y. Age: 39 Posts: 732	Both Wakefield (Pirates) and Ortiz (Twins) were castoffs and didn't cost the Sox a dime. Varitek (Mariners) was involved in a trade along with Derek Lowe for Heathcliff Slocume. Beckett and Lowell were trade aquisitions in which the Marlins got the outstanding Hanley Ramirez in return. Schilling was traded to Boston. Crisp also a trade. Keilty (A's) was picked up off of waivers. They gave as well as recieved and then paid them when they got to Boston. So that leaves Manny, Drew, Matsuzaka, & Lugo as free agent signings. Apparently Edhead follows baseball as closely as I do. Actually, from top to bottom the Indians are a better team than the yankees. I refer mostly to their superior pitching staff and defense, and consistant day to day lineup, you know who is going to play. With the yankees it is who will DH today? Who will play first and when are we going to pinch hit for him or send the defensive replacement? Who is going to play left? You should never underestimate the value of stability of a lineup.

October 13th, 2007, 03:27 AM	#38 (permalink)
macheesmo3 Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ocean Springs , Mississippi Age: 36 Posts: 762	I'd really LIKE to see the Tribe win , as they have been waiting for a WS win forever ( and the Red Sox got one 3 years ago ) . But deep , in my heart , I know that the Sox are just too balanced and almost without weakness . Monster lineup Great Starting Pitching Great Bull Pen Pretty good Bench too Not much weakness there . On the baseball forum I hang out at , I picked the Sox in 6 . But that was under the assumption that either Sabathia or Carmona would get a road win in Boston . If carmona doesn't come through tomorrow , I'd go Sox in 4 or 5 .

October 13th, 2007, 08:53 AM	#40 (permalink)
Filthy McNasty Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: upstate N.Y. Age: 39 Posts: 732	I don't overestmate it, but juggling your lineup in august and september is to be expected, juggling your lineup for the playoffs is not what you want. The Sox had everyone ready to go by the last homestand of the season. The Sox payroll has been around 140 mil. for three years now. I think that last offseasons spending spree is what bothers people, including Red Sox fans. plus the fact that Drew, Lugo, & Matsuzaka have been so inconsistant all year.