Music licensing companies unplug live music.

[ibobunot]

Andrus said a friend of his who owned a restaurant that did not feature music was contacted by a company looking to charge him because it owned the rights to a Hank Williams Jr. song, "Are You Ready for Some Football?" The song preceded every "Monday Night Football" telecast, which the restaurant carried on its televisions.

He said his friend simply chose to turn the volume down when the song came on.

Music licensing companies come calling for royalties

[Telenator]

In an interesting, weird sort of way, this might help to make music less taken for granted, and make it a little bit special again.

[greggorypeccary]

Doesn't any club that has cover bands, or even play CDs, have to pay the publishing companies an annual fee?

[Mike H.]

Even though most of the money never goes to the songwriter, and even less to the original performers, I do understand where ASCAP and BMI are coming from with the live performances of cover tunes, or having a jukebox.
But charging fees because "Are You Ready for Some Football?" is playing on a television set is not legal. That's called extortion.
Monday Night Football already paid dearly for the rights to broadcast the music. That would be like charging fees to Circuit City or Best Buy anytime music played on television sets on the sales floor.

[Daddydex]

ASCAP and BMI I believe handles this. I have been wrong before.

Dan

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by greggorypeccary

Doesn't any club that has cover bands, or even play CDs, have to pay the publishing companies an annual fee?

Yes. Depends on the size, but between $400 and $900 per year.

[fourthrock]

Originally Posted by ibobunot

Quote:
Andrus said a friend of his who owned a restaurant that did not feature music was contacted by a company looking to charge him because it owned the rights to a Hank Williams Jr. song, "Are You Ready for Some Football?" The song preceded every "Monday Night Football" telecast, which the restaurant carried on its televisions.

He said his friend simply chose to turn the volume down when the song came on.

This story sounds fishy to me. A friend of his? A company?

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by Mike H.

Charging fees because "Are You Ready for Some Football?" is playing on a television set is not legal. That's called extortion.

I had never heard a story like that before...

That's why I posted it.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by fourthrock

This story sounds fishy to me. A friend of his? A company?

+1,000,000,000

"A friend"?!

The NFL procured rights for that song on their broadcasts. The law regarding this kind of thing is clear cut. There's no way the club would owe licensing fees in this kind of scenario.

Either
1. He's pissed at the live music (NOTE ONLY COVERS) copyright licensing payments and is speaking in hyperbole out of anger.
OR
2. Some scam artists are trying to get money out of that damned Football tune through a club owner to dumb to understand the laws.

THIS KIND OF CRAP PISSES ME OFF
I'm a member of ASCAP - and they're the last guys left fighting for our songs licensing money to THE MUSICIAN. The record companies have their heads up their a$$e$ and only care about their profits and share holders.

As a songwriter and ASCAP member I am thoroughly disgusted by cover bands... where I live coverbands and "tribute" bands have drove out ORIGINAL bands from many venues they used to freely play at. I understand 40+ year olds want to relive their youth, but hardworking songwriters and bands are getting shafted on many levels - corporate record labels poor business decisions (and lack of understanding of technology) - then on a local level by people who refuse to put their b@ll$ on the line and play something that may not be a gauranteed crowd pleaser (hell, it topped the charts 30 years ago, so its safe).

Here's a solution:
STOP PLAYING 100% COVERS and write your own tunes.

OK, I feel better after getting that out now :)

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by fourthrock

This story sounds fishy to me. A friend of his? A company?

I guess you could ask him...

Lou Andrus - Lou's Blues Upstairs

[seekir]

Presley, The Beatles, Hendrix, Clapton, Stones, and many other writing performers played covers. I like playing great songs, and I'm afraid I'm not a prolific writer of killer tunes. I could probably count the times I've heard local artists play interesting originals on the fingers of one hand (James Harmann down at the White House in Laguna comes to mind). That being said, if you've got the gift, my hat's off to ya.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by seekir

Presley, The Beatles, Hendrix, Clapton, Stones, and many other writing performers played covers. I like playing great songs, and I'm afraid I'm not a prolific writer of killer tunes. I could probably count the times I've heard local artists play interesting originals on the fingers of one hand (James Harmann down at the White House in Laguna comes to mind). That being said, if you've got the gift, my hat's off to ya.

There's nothing wrong with someone playing a cover or two in their set... but entire sets of someone else's WORK is extremely frustrating.

The Beatles, Hendrix, Clapton, Stones - played small amounts of covers compared to the originals they put out.

Lets consider if the Stones STAYED in the Mayall Blues thing and ONLY did 100% covers of old blues songs... we'd be missing many many great songs.

This is how some of us make our living. Music isn't free to everyone who wants it... it cost me a lot of time and money (electric bills, food, then there's gear required) to record a tune. AMEN TO ASCAP.

[Telemaniac]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

Here's a solution:
STOP PLAYING 100% COVERS and write your own tunes.

There are flaws to this solution . . .

I wrote some of my own stuff but when I used to play out I enjoyed playing covers - I was an entertainer and people like to be entertained, covers are a big part of that.

However, if everyone took your advice we would all have been denied all music composed by dead composers prior to the invention of recording equipment, most orchestral work (I can't imaging a single orchestra being restricted to its own works), anything by lyricists/composers who don't sing their own songs, and anything by singers who sing other people's songs. Personally I quite like listening to Mozart, even if it is being played as a "cover"; do you really think singers like Frank Sinatra/Pavorotti/Elvis were in some way lessened because they mostly if not exclusively sang "covers" - i.e. songs written by others?

[JohnnyCrash]

Of course, this is all just my opinion - but I thought it fair to share the "other side" for sake of healthy discussion...

I do agree on a few things though.

I meant no offense, sarcasm, or patronization.

Without new music, music as a whole suffers... I coulda trimmed it down I guess :)

[ibobunot]

The Leroi Brothers... playing a cover...

Tear It Up

[WireLine]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

Of course, this is all just my opinion - but I thought it fair to share the "other side" for sake of healthy discussion...

Its not just your opinion, Johnny...as a BMI affiliated composer, musician, publisher, and recording studio, I fully agree with your musings.

The real issue starts to surface IMO when we start looking at live music perfomance and originals...most places in the part of the world not only do not want originals, they specifically tell bands: no originals.

With picking jobs worth the gas to get to getting fewer and much farther between, most of us (I imagine) cannot be too choosey in where/how we work - the trick is to keep working.

I've been in the middle of a song more than once and thought about these issues - get a severe headache, and try to focus on the gig...

I really don't know of any one answer that is sufficient to everyone. Then there is the issue of in the event a venue is in fact paying licensing fees, are the actual copyright holders being paid? Who owns the copyright? Remember, for a long time Michael Jackson owned most of the Beatles catalog, so everytime anyone bought a Beatles CD/heard a Beatles song on the radio/played a Beatles cover in a reporting venue, Mr Weird was getting the money...

And with technology being what it is, the easy sidestep to all this is venue owners only playing used CDs/bands performing covers of the covers (like Zepplin's cover of Willie Dixon's "How Many More Times?")...who pays for covers of covers from 30 years ago?

There are so many possibilities on all sides of the arguement for abuse, shenanighans, gray area interpretation, or pure apathy without fear of getting caught that guitar players, heck musicians in general, really need to have an attorney on standby.
It has become so convoluted...and people take it all so personally.

[Telemaniac]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

5. Have you seen a live performance of Mozart's material? Sometimes, you get to see them for free and its cool; but at the least, on radio, you have to sit through commercial sponsors ads. I gladly pay to watch an orchestra in full swing all the time (and yes, I know how to tie a bowtie hehehe).

Well, well . . . .

My post was pretty much in jest, sorry if I upset you, whoever you are, but I don't really think you need to patronise me, you have NO IDEA who I am or anything about me.

Just for the record I frequently attend classical concerts - in fact far more than any "modern" ones, and play violin and viola. But of course you felt the need to insult.

Another one bites the dust, it was fun being here for a while but this is the kind of posting that seems to be taking over now, so I think I'll join the rest of the exits.

[telel6s]

If licensing companies are truly harassing the restaurant owner in the story, or trying to get them to pay for things they should not have to (commercial radio or TV), then that's wrong and I do feel for the owners.

However, as business owners they should know that there are certain costs to opening and running a business. If they want to do live music, then one of those costs is copyright fees for cover songs. My limited understanding of these fees is that they are based on the size of the venue, number of nights/days that music is played, and the source of that music (live, CDs, satellite, etc.). I don't run a business so won't comment on whether or not those fees should be considered exorbitant or not.

As stated above, an easy thing to do is keep the performers but have them play only original music.

One funny thing I find in all the responses above, is that nobody has complained that the owner in the article is not paying the performers! So the owner does not pay for the musicians and does not want to pay copyright fees but wants the benefit of live music to enhance the atmosphere of their for-profit business...hmmmm. I wonder if the musicians at least get a free cup of coffee and a muffin.

As for the cover band vs. original band debate, I've played in pure cover bands and in one that did about 75% originals. I have fun whenever I get to strap on my guitar. Similar to another post above, I am not a prolific writer, so it will take me about another 18.5 years before I have enough originals that I think are good enough to play in public to make up a two hour set. In the mean time, I'm going to play some covers.

Another thought on covers vs. originals: I've seen some bands that do excellent renditions of other peoples' songs but their originals simply suck. I auditioned for one band and declined a call-back audition because I cringed at their originals even though they were good musicians.

Other random thoughts: If it weren't for playing covers, we would never have known Joe Cocker, Eva Cassidy, Jimi's "All Along the Watchtower", or Hayseed Dixies' bluegrass covers of AD/DC.

[Walker]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

1. Read my post above. A few are fine. A few are even essential in motivating NEW music.

2. Mozart actually ghost composed some works and/or portions for Haydn. So intercompositional stuff was happening.

3. Not all Baroque, Classical, and Romantic period composers were plagiarising as prevalently as you seem to think. Some even plagiarized from their own completed works (much like bluesman John Lee Hooker did many years later)!

4. If plagiarism was the modus operandi of eons of pre-recorded music, the church modes and monotonality would still be the music we'd be listening to (granted, many modes are still used today, ironically even in satanic death metal). True, NEW music does stand on the shoulders of its predecessors, but it is still NEW, and not standing in the shoes of its predecessors.

5. Have you seen a live performance of Mozart's material? Sometimes, you get to see them for free and its cool; but at the least, on radio, you have to sit through commercial sponsors ads. I gladly pay to watch an orchestra in full swing all the time (and yes, I know how to tie a bowtie hehehe).

Do you write and perform your own music? Are you a member of ASCAP or BMI? Do you merely enjoy being entertained? For some folks this is more hallowed ground than cheap (FREE) entertainment.

You can flip classical references all day/night if you'd like... I am far from unarmed in this line of discourse :)

If a plumber worked for free he would have nothing to eat.

Of course, this is all just my opinion - but I thought it fair to share the "other side" for sake of healthy discussion...

I do agree on a few things though. I think intimidating a coffee shop is ridiculous. If they were making a good deal of money off of other people's music, that would be different, but it doesn't sound like this is the case. There should be balance on both sides of this fence.

Not all musicians are composers. Even as far as the classical references are concerned, those Mozart symphonies were/are being performed by musicians, not composers. Should they all have to only play their own tunes?

[mark norwine]

Other random thoughts: If it weren't for playing covers, we would never have known...Eva Cassidy.....

And THAT would be a huge loss.

[boris bubbanov]

I know Neil Young is not idolized in these circles, but one thing he does that I recommend, spend time away from the music of others, so new ideas can be born. I don't know where these damn things come from, but they never occur when Phil Collins is wretching in the background. You may yet be the songwriter you once hoped to be.
I agree with Johnny, performing other's compositions back to back to back is like being stuck in neutral, going no where, not something to reflect happily on in old age.
Ultimately I am best satisfied playing my own compositions, and if there's no audience for them, I will carry on. My music is first and always for my consumption. If there's an audience, fine. If not, fine also.
TDPRI folks are generally more prolific, more curious, and have devoted to memory probably ten compositions compared to one for the average Joe. I'm afraid the club goer simply cannot handle the barrage of different songs coming at them, information overload, so they seek comfort in a small, some would say very small playlist. Anything else is toxic, no matter how good.
If playing other people's stuff was all you ever wanted to do, ok. But I find writing is the best fun in music. And you have to prefer silence to Glenn Frey to find it, I submit.
Ever notice how people flock to a songwriter once he is deceased? I think it is because people have a fear of the unknown, and the deceased musician can't turn on you, can't suddenly go disco on you. Do you recall the hate when Bob Dylan changed gears? Your songs represent disorder, reinvention, discord, uncertainty and upheaval, and the tipsy patron doesn't usually want that. I guess if I respected modern audiences, but I don't. Look at all these stupid movie remakes and sequels.

Bubbanov

[telel6s]

Originally Posted by mark norwine

And THAT would be a huge loss.

Ha! I was expecting that sort of comment about Joe Cocker!

Just thinking that if you allow the the talented, "good" people to do covers then you have to allow everyone to do them. (OK, you don't HAVE to, but I'm talking in a general sense here.)

[Wally]

The licensing agencies have come down on a couple of clubs here in Lubbock for lack of licensing fee payment. I imagine that we will see more stringent observation of copyright laws. Sales of recorded material are down. Theft by downloading is here to stay, unfortunately. The creator of the music is due their payment from whomever is using their copyrighted material. ASCAP and BMI rightfully should preserve the members ability to gather compensation for the use of their material. Theft is theft....even if it is a form of flattery through imitation, right?
One can always dip into the wealth of public domain material. Anyone for a blues version of 'The Old Grey Mare'? hehehehe

[Larry F]

The classical scene differs from the band scene. In classical music today, it is rare to hear a performance of music by a living composer. And performers very rarely write their own music.

Classical composers frequently earn their livelihood from non-compositional activities: teaching, performing, conducting, criticism. Up until, and including, Bach, composers worked for the church. After that, composers were supported by royalty. Nowadays, many composers work in universities, as I do. Part of my job (40% effort) is to compose music.

Sometime we get commissions. Uncommonly, there are commissions of $5,000-$10,000 available through grants. More common are commissions from performers that we know for $500-$1,000. Very often, there is no money involved, but there is the promise of significant performances and CD recordings.

I don't copyright my music and I'm not a member of BMI or ASCAP. There is too much paperwork for too little reward. On the plus side, all of my compositions from the last ten years have been recorded on decent classical music labels.

Just thought I'd chime in with the view from classical music.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by Telemaniac

Well, well . . . .

My post was pretty much in jest, sorry if I upset you, whoever you are, but I don't really think you need to patronise me, you have NO IDEA who I am or anything about me.

Just for the record I frequently attend classical concerts - in fact far more than any "modern" ones, and play violin and viola. But of course you felt the need to insult.

Another one bites the dust, it was fun being here for a while but this is the kind of posting that seems to be taking over now, so I think I'll join the rest of the exits.

Again, no offense was meant.

Healthy discussion should not mean only one side or way of expressing a side should be alowd. This wasn't a "Teles are nice" thread... it was a discussion on a music business that some here are actually a part of... your thoughts opposed mine and I was not offended. Besides we've all benefitted from the "evil" record biz since we were kids - otherwise, we wouldn't be posting on music forums in the first place.

I meant no offense, but with discussion (online or real life) be prepared to hear things you don't like or agree with.

Please, if you've been offended, I am deeply sorry, that was not my intent. I view everyone here as my older brothers.

[RCinMempho]

The whole notion of BMI/ASCAP and music as some sort of special product is no longer viable. We do not live in an age of sheet music, radio stations, and records. We live in an age of websites, satellites, and bandwidth.

If BMI/ASCAP want to survive, they will have to completely change the way they conduct business. If they don't, they will be replaced. The only fair way to pay in the future will be based on bandwidth. The payments for music will be done on the same scale as the payment for websites, movies, photos, games, and everything else. This is the what the technology demands.

The current fight to protect the trenches really looks stupid once you look up and see the bombers flying in.

[bowman]

The main difference between cover bands and original bands is that cover bands play good songs. Sorry, but that's true. Many, if not most of the original bands I've seen in clubs have a high degree of musicianship and talent. The area with the most glaring lack of talent? Songs. Almost always.
Just because something is fresh or even interesting doesn't make it good, and doesn't make people want to hear it again by buying a copy. And, how are all the songwriters out there going to collect their royalties from ASCAP or BMI if nobody buys the songs to begin with? The best original songs I've heard were by bands who mixed a few of their own tunes in with the covers they were playing to entertain the audience. That's how you build a reputation. You don't dilute the quality of your own material by putting the weak songs out there for all to hear - you blend the originals you KNOW are good in with the proven hits. And you keep doing that, and writing more songs, until you've got more and more tunes of your own that people WANT to hear.

[bender-freak]

perhaps i'm missing the point here...i often do...!!!....i ain't a song-writer or composer in any sense of the genre....i'm a side-man...lead player to be exact...all i ever WANted to be, all i EVer been, it's what i are.....it sounds to me that by following the logic of some, then guitar licks and styles should be copywritten and off limits also..???!!...then, fellers, it seems to me that all tab sites, sites with chord changes, questions about "how to" play/hit certain licks/get a certain artists tone/sound/style down should be on the endagered and forbidden lists also....

i am not at all trying to be contrary or sarcastic.....i have great respect for the top artists that we all love and admire....but i can't help but feel when i hear some of them complaining about this.......they have forgotten how they began way back when......as always, just my opinion...not trying to rile anyone up.....cheers

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by bowman

The main difference between cover bands and original bands is that cover bands play good songs. Sorry, but that's true. Many, if not most of the original bands I've seen in clubs have a high degree of musicianship and talent. The area with the most glaring lack of talent? Songs. Almost always.

That's about as true as my observation that many, if not most of the cover bands I've seen in clubs have a high degree of...cheesiness.

I love a good cover as much as I love a good original, but they're equally rare in my book.

On a related note, I remember Tom Petty saying that when Mudcrutch was coming up in Florida, most of their gigs wouldn't allow any original music. Somewhere in the middle of a set he'd say "Here's one by Santana..." and then play one of his tunes. The idea of a Petty tune being mistaken for a Santana one always makes me chuckle, unless his sound was really different back then...

[Markl8]

If a plumber worked for free he would have nothing to eat.

The Plumbing contractor doesnt charge you for everytime you use the kitchen sink. Im all for protecting artists work but come on strongarming Betty's do drop in for playing covers........it isnt cutting into album sales nobodys recording and selling it. You can bet the bands and Do drop ins sure aint making a killing on it. What about the young guys coming up learning the ropes, you never played covers paying your dues, where do the kids get the experience to grow?

Just the Music biz corporate machine pissin more people off, and they wonder why people buy music from Russian websites for real cheap. Oh BTW I am a Plumbing contractor and learned early on after a few years in the biz Id get weathy much quicker in the trades then the Music biz.

[casterway]

Music business? Business is killing music...

[JohnnyCrash]

See the identical thread... the redundancy is making me dizzy.

A coffee shop is one thing, but there is so many shades to this it is mind boggling.

Covers are necessary and OK... flipside: tribute bands are making money off of songs others wrote... yes though, shaking down a coffee shop is wrong... ASCAP/BMI isn't all bad... there is much in the way of perspective that is missed by all sides... somewhere in the middle we can all find agreement...

99% of what I record is for licensing, in my "normal" band I don't care if we're covered for free - exposure is good (but ASCAP doesn't just protect the big names, it helps the underdog small bands more than you realize). Covers bring in paying customers, yet small change is not moral grounds for extortion... it keeps going from side to side, until we see the big picture... see the other thread and avoid redundancy... are you dizzy yet too?

:)

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by casterway

Music business? Business is killing music...

Its supposedly been doing that since the 1930's... still, without that "evil" business, many tasty disks wouldn't have gotten into our grubby little hands. Its ugly and its wrong, but its not entirely rotten... and unfortunately it'll never go away (even when instant digital distribution is as prevalent as breathing).

Colonel Parker has been killing Elvis, Jazz killed morality, fast food is killing western civilization... history is a series of patterns which keep repeating - doomed to repeat? How quaint, this cycle cannot be broken :)

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

See the identical thread... the redundancy is making me dizzy.

Hey I posted mine first...

I always look around before I post and avoid "the redundancy" of two threads on the same topic.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by ibobunot

Hey I posted mine first...

I always look around before I post and avoid "the redundancy" of two threads on the same topic.

True, you did.

You also warp me everyday with your posts... and usually give me a good laugh or two - there aint many like you here :)

[Colo Springs E]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

I agree with Johnny, performing other's compositions back to back to back is like being stuck in neutral, going no where, not something to reflect happily on in old age.

.....your personal goals, personal desires.

In my old age, I'll be reflecting on all the fun I had playing to PACKED CLUBS--the best places to play in town--seeing hot chicks grinding on each other, scores of people singing along with/jumping up and down with us, drunken fools having a good time, etc.

I play in a 100% cover band and make no apologies about it. Our goal as a band is to have as much fun as possible, play music that we enjoy, and get butts out of their seats and on the dance floor. And yes, to get paid, and we do quite nicely. We're not planning tour of the western US, we're not looking to crack the Billboard Top 100, get in rotation on VH-1 or any of that stuff.

I have no desire to write songs, just doesn't appeal to me. I've tried it, and most of the stuff I wrote was garbage that wouldn't appeal to anyone, particularly people looking to be entertained/people who want to dance and party and drink. It didn't even appeal to me, and I wrote it.

I'm glad I'm not one of the tortured souls who feels the only way they can be "legit" is if they write their own stuff--even if it's crap.

By the way, if you go see your local orchestra, chances are, they're doing "covers." Really old ones at that.

Just my opinion, and I'm comfortable with it... to each his own.

[ibobunot]

I've never been able to set through more than 5 or 10 minutes of a cover band unless they're friends of mine and I'm just hanging out.

I'm not knocking anyone it just doesn't appeal to me...

[RCinMempho]

The animosity towards cover bands here is amazing me.

If you haven't taken someone elses song and made it your own, then you've missed one of the greatest joys of making music. Granted, the human jukebox thing doesn't do much for me, but good musicians performing great songs their own way is what makes it all worthwhile. Where the song came from is an issue for accountants.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

The animosity towards cover bands here is amazing me.

If you haven't taken someone elses song and made it your own, then you've missed one of the greatest joys of making music. Granted, the human jukebox thing doesn't do much for me, but good musicians performing great songs their own way is what makes it all worthwhile. Where the song came from is an issue for accountants.

My dislike of most cover bands is based on seeing countless bands not "make it their own", which I'm all in favor of, but rather just trotting out another by-the-numbers version of "Gimme Three Steps" (great tune! great band!) or what have you. Lots of people like playing in those bands, lots of people like watching them, but conversely lots of people don't.

It's just as easy to play mediocre music when the source material is a famous hit as when it's something you wrote yesterday. The cover band thinks they hit a home run when they started on third base by dint of playing a platinum hit, the original band thinks they should go to third base because they're expressing their own precious feelings, and both are sort of missing out on what I consider the Big Goal: connecting with the music in a manner that elevates both the musician and the listener.

For me, the best cover band is like the best McDonald's meal. It tastes great, but it's not something I'd want to eat on a regular basis. McDonald's on the whole is fairly reliable, and when I want a quick bite on the road, the Golden Arches make things real easy when you don't know the local places to eat and don't have the time to hunt down the good one, but there's no way a McDonald's hamburger is going to ever make my list of top ten hamburgers. It's also not going to be on my list of worst burgers.

And the whole "We make lots of money and play to happy sold out audiences every night" argument could also apply to strip dancers. Some people prefer a strip club to the ballet, I don't.

[ibobunot]

I have no animosity towards cover bands or strip clubs...


You just won't find me there spending my money.