overwhelmed by technique

[rxtech]

Do any of you feel the same way as me? I've played guitar for many years, started in 9th grade and I'm going to be 40 this year. I'm really not much more than a basic chord player, not a novice, but not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. I used to play on my church worship team, but one of our new leaders asked if I'd play bass because it was needed. I enjoy doing this so it's not a problem.

The problem is when I look at books with modes I get immediate ADD. I want my playing to improve but it seems like it's impossible (not really though) to learn, or at least would take a long time. How do the rest of you get better at scales, modes, etc.? I could take lessons, but as it is I don't have a lot of money, but I do have some books and well, you know what I said. Do you guys learn certain patterns that can simply be shifted up a fret, 2 frets, etc? Or do you learn all of these modes and know visually where you next ½ or full step up should be. I know I sound lazy, but dang that sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics. Thanks for lettin' me rant. This is a great place to post, and I don't even own a Tele sshh...
Thanks to all!

[Leon Grizzard]

This topic gets discussed fairly often in the Theory sub-forum, and just checking in there if you don't already would give you a lot of info over time. I have two thoughts: for most non-jazz players, the major scale, dominant/mixolydian scale, and some understanding if not under your fingers knowledge of the minor scale varieties serves most purposes. Just learn a little at a time, ie one position, then learn the others as you need them or have time.

Second, I like introductory books: basic chord melody, jazz, modal jazz, etc. They are easy enough to be doable and can turn you on to new pathways. Get ones without CD's and they're pretty cheap.

[marquis de jonny]

nice thread to post and good question.

there's a lot of answers and ways to approach your position, and straight-up theory/scales is one way.

i studied jazz in university (although my major was double bass, not telecaster) and always found the talk of scales and modes to just screw me up. i always approached music from more of an ear point of view (my big band leader can attest to that. 2 1/2 years into my 3 year degree he realized i couldn't read music. i'd just been winging it by ear). is still can't think of music in a straight theoretical way and my reading is worse than it was then.

for me, the best way to learn to play is to learn other people's solos, lines, and comping and incorporate that into your playing. all you need are good albums. right now i'm checking out a lot of mick taylor era stones, ron wood with the faces, and late '70's - back in black ac/dc. the best teachers around.

modes and scales are great, but it's like learning a new language's vocabulary and grammar. you must hear the new language to understand how to use that knowledge. it's all about context. many people learn how to speak a second language clearly and concisely just from listening and trying without knowing the grammar rules. music is exactly the same.

my advice would be: listen a lot. listen to what you love, and take what you can from it. learn licks, lines, and riffs. make them your own. and the next time someone asks you to play bass, just say no (unless you really want to play 4 strings).

that said (and to quote a great tdpri-ism) YMMV!

all the best.

[Telenator]

As this thread fills out, you're going to become even more disillusioned. The sheer number of good responses and alternatives are going to just add to what already appears to be an insurmountable situation.

The best advice I can offer is, don't look at the whole picture in it's entirety.

It will overwhelm you.

Take a small piece, like a scale, and work on that for a while. Soon a natural path will emerge and lead you to the next step. The first step is to stop thinking and start doing. One small piece at a time. Once you have enough pieces together, a small portion of the big picture will emerge. Like a jig saw puzzle, we often assemble several sub-sections of the puzzle and then, at some point, you see where a sub-section fits the big picture and you attach it. Learning guitar is no different.

One step at a time. One section at a time. Only look at the big picture when you're having a moment of understanding, not confusion.

[marquis de jonny]

telenator,

i agreed with your first paragraph and next couple of lines, but then you lost me.

i really think an important element is context: a scale or mode by itself leads nowhere.

as a student of music (as we all are) we must ask this question: what music do i want to play? scales mean nothing unless we can apply them to the music we want to play.

again; listen, listen, listen. the listening we do and taste we have will give us a context for any scale or mode we learn. let's not forget, many of the greats are not proficient with scales, modes, or theory, but have learned what they know from listening to their favourite records and applied that to their own sound.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by marquis de jonny

telenator,

i agreed with your first paragraph and next couple of lines, but then you lost me.

i really think an important element is context: a scale or mode by itself leads nowhere.

LOL! I was trying not to overwhelm the poor guy!

I feel that if a player takes a scale and actually explores it, they will discover how all the notes they've been holding down in that big 'ol G major barre chord are all right there in the scale. This causes some players to go, hmmmmm, if all of these scale notes are in the chord, then this scale must fit this chord. That leads, (hopefully), the exploration of melody using the scale and a natural path will begin to emerge.

All of the other stuff you say is good advice and very true, but our esteemed friend rxtech first needs to get past the point of feeling overwhelmed. Nothing like a little independant discovery to build one's confidence and inspire them to take the next step!

[marquis de jonny]

Originally Posted by Telenator

LOL! I was trying not to overwhelm the poor guy!

true, true. likewise, i'm sure. that said, encouraging someone to listen to music they like and learn from it is far from overwhelming (it seems quite natural to me... but then, that's me).

there are so many ways people approach musical learning. some are suited to aural learning, some to a more theoretical approach. i'm more of an ear type and so naturally i gave advice that i understand and seems to work for me. some guys do well with scales, and that's great too.

i'd just hate our esteemed friend rxtech to think that scales are the only solution to his problem.

[bowman]

The advice about taking a small piece at a time is right on. If you feel that there's too much going on, it's not going to be conducive to learning. And it won't be fun, either. I just got the bug to learn some jazz stuff, so I bought one of the Mickey Baker books. Each time I sit down with it, I learn 2-3 new chords, or some other small piece of info, and try to apply them to things I already know. It's a fun, no-pressure way to learn, and the bottom line is that I AM learning. If I had more time to practice, perhaps I'd step it up a bit, but this works for me right now.
Rxtech, I'm a lot like you - my playing should be much more advanced considering how long I've been doing it, but you can't let that obscure your enjoyment of playing. Even if you learn one new thing each time you play, it's more than you knew the day before.

[eryque]

I used to do a lot better with practicing actual techniques and theory before I had a full time job and all that adult stuff. Since then I've found it much more practical to just learn songs, and usually in the course of learning a song I'll pick up some new tool that I can apply other places. I was like that a lot with soloing for a long time. All of my solos were snippets of quotes I picked up from other blues songs. Now I've forgotten where most of them came from and my solos are usually standard phrases that I use a lot, but not necessarily direct quotes from anywhere.

[rand z]

i have 8 hot licks dvd's including danny gattons telemaster. if i sit just there and watch danny... well, it makes me want to quit. cause dannys approach to the guitar was way over my head. but, i think he was over everyones. i can only kinda absorb the basics of his style and approach. maybe one riff or bend. its ok.

really, i just try to find something in all of these dvds that im capable of learning. usually its some simple, but effective bend or chord variation. if i can learn one usable thing from each dvd, then i feel that it was worth the effort (and price).

it helps to build my vocabulary. i recommend trying to absorb the little things from EVERYTHING; whether its a scale. a melody. a dvd. a book. whatever.

it will build your arsenal and effect your playing. and, most importantly it will ultimately make you feel good and you WILL be gaining ground. the sum will be bigger that its parts.

good luck!

imho.

rand z tropicalsoul.net

[chickenpicker]

Mode Schmode!

Just enjoy what you do and don't worry about whether you should be doing it differently.

[Rathmann]

Yes -- it can be difficult to fathom modes -- mostly because so many people write about them in such a way as to almost deliberately make them incomprehensible.

Modes are just about the major scale. If you can play a major scale, you can play modes.

Try this. Record yourself playing a G major I-IV-V progression (G, C, D) -- or have a buddy play it. While he does that, play the G major scale.

You have just played a mode - the IONIAN mode to be exact.

Now have your buddy play a I-IV-V progression in A minor (Am, Dm, Em). On top of this, play the same G major scale you were playing before.

Congratulations. You're playing another mode -- the DORIAN mode.

I really encourage you to play and listen to the modes by following simple guidance before you try to intellectually understand them. There is no real way to describe them successfully until you have done this. You can read books -- but there is no music in books.

Basically, when you play a major scale from one key on top of a tune in a different key, you are moving the pattern of whole and half steps around in such a way that they harmonize well with various types of chords/progressions. A lot of melodies are based on these patterns, and once you get used to modes a lot of music will open itself up to you. I won't bore you with too many other details right now. The main thing is to play and listen -- and then allow the intellectual side to catch up with your hands at a later time!

[sidneystreet]

Keep it simple, simple, simple.

Chord tones are everything. The other notes in the scale are mainly for embellishment. Running scales up and down is not very helpful.

Practice playing over a C major7 one chord vamp.

1) Limit your improvising to only chord tones C E G B.

2) Gradually start working in the other notes from the C major scale (ionian mode) as passing tones linking your previously mastered chord tones.

3) Eventually you'll start to hear the quality of the mode you are working on while firmly establishing the tonality of any chord changes by emphasizing the chord tones.

4) Do this type of exercise with all modes and it begins to fall into place.

[Charlie Bernstein]

All good answers - even the ones that disagree! The best advice is to relax, take it at your own speed, and don't worry about how old Stevie Winwood was when he founded Traffic.

I'm like you - been playing since high school, will never be a virtuoso, just like playing, and do it whenever I get a chance.

I have a keyboard friend who announces the key AND THE SCALE for different parts. He'll yell, for instance, "Key of A, G major scale!"* and everyone will know what to do.

*That, I believe, is an A mixolidian scale. In fact, all the seven so-called natural modes are the notes of one major scale plopped into a different key. That's not hard to think about, is it?

The Guitar Handbook -

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Handboo...e=UTF8&s=books

- actually explains it in plain English. Love that book!

It's also fun to just make up a cool-sounding scale and practice it. That doesn't take any theory at all - and your friends will think you're brilliant.

Anyhow, to rock out, all you need are the major and minor pentatonics, which are identical, but three frets apart. If you've already managed that, you're 80% of the way there!

[Charlie Bernstein]

PS - So, no, I don't feel that way. I figured out early on that I'm not a musical prodigy, felt blue for a while, and got over it. So it's a hobby, not a vocation. Over the years I've discovered that my songwriting is strong, and the people I play with seem to enjoy the stuff I crank out. It's like you discovering that bass really works for you.


--------

"Some take a little longer but get there just the same." Joan Armatrading

[rxtech]

Thanks to all of you for answering. This really is a great forum! I guess keeping it simple is a good way to move along. Like the saying goes, "Keep it simple stupid". Thanks again everyone!

[Hucklebilly]

You've asked a really good question: how to get the most musical "bang for your buck" when there is SO much to be learned.

My advice is learn the CAGED system. This did more to open my ears and mind than any other thing. If you just learn those five little chord shapes and how the major and pentatonic scales lay over them, you will have a fretboard map that will help everything else make sense.

The great thing is that you already know these chord shapes! No great theoretical leap needed here.

[rcliffg]

As this thread fills out, you're going to become even more disillusioned. The sheer number of good responses and alternatives are going to just add to what already appears to be an insurmountable situation.

The best advice I can offer is, don't look at the whole picture in it's entirety.

It will overwhelm you.

Take a small piece, like a scale, and work on that for a while. Soon a natural path will emerge and lead you to the next step. The first step is to stop thinking and start doing. One small piece at a time. Once you have enough pieces together, a small portion of the big picture will emerge. Like a jig saw puzzle, we often assemble several sub-sections of the puzzle and then, at some point, you see where a sub-section fits the big picture and you attach it. Learning guitar is no different.

One step at a time. One section at a time. Only look at the big picture when you're having a moment of understanding, not confusion.

Wonderful advice, IMO.

[Rick S]

Originally Posted by marquis de jonny

i really think an important element is context: a scale or mode by itself leads nowhere.

as a student of music (as we all are) we must ask this question: what music do i want to play? scales mean nothing unless we can apply them to the music we want to play.

again; listen, listen, listen. the listening we do and taste we have will give us a context for any scale or mode we learn. let's not forget, many of the greats are not proficient with scales, modes, or theory, but have learned what they know from listening to their favourite records and applied that to their own sound.

I like what marquis de jonny has said in this thread. Something that I have observed in more recent years is there seems to be so many people trying to approach guitar playing as a problem to be solved with a formula. I suppose it must have something to do with the number of folks educated in tech fields and their educational background has them taking this approach to learning in general.

You have listened to the music all your life and you have what you want to do in your mind. In the most basic sense, the goal is to pick up your guitar and make the darn thing do what you have in your head.

You can be a good boy and learn all your scales 'n modes inside and out, but until you have something going on to relate your scales to, you ain't gettin' anywhere. You need to consider your scales 'n modes as tools that can help your mind relate to what you are doing. It's not like hammering scales day in, day out is somehow going to lead to a point that something magically clicks and soulful leads start to flow. Use them as an aid, not a solution.

[Chuck 909]

Learn songs. Don't worry about technique, learn the songs you want to play.

[chickenpicker]

Originally Posted by Rathmann

Yes -- it can be difficult to fathom modes -- mostly because so many people write about them in such a way as to almost deliberately make them incomprehensible.

Modes are just about the major scale. If you can play a major scale, you can play modes.

Try this. Record yourself playing a G major I-IV-V progression (G, C, D) -- or have a buddy play it. While he does that, play the G major scale.

You have just played a mode - the IONIAN mode to be exact.

Now have your buddy play a I-IV-V progression in A minor (Am, Dm, Em). On top of this, play the same G major scale you were playing before.

Congratulations. You're playing another mode -- the DORIAN mode.

I really encourage you to play and listen to the modes by following simple guidance before you try to intellectually understand them. There is no real way to describe them successfully until you have done this. You can read books -- but there is no music in books.

Basically, when you play a major scale from one key on top of a tune in a different key, you are moving the pattern of whole and half steps around in such a way that they harmonize well with various types of chords/progressions. A lot of melodies are based on these patterns, and once you get used to modes a lot of music will open itself up to you. I won't bore you with too many other details right now. The main thing is to play and listen -- and then allow the intellectual side to catch up with your hands at a later time!

Hey Rathmann, that sounds really good - I may have been hasty in my earlier post.

Can you post a list of which scales to play against which "wrong" chords for best effect please?