ES345 Out of Phase Sound

[Robin Nahum]

I restereo-ised my ES345 recently. This means it is back to the original config with a separate output for each of the two pickups via a stereo output socket.

I run the stereo lead from the guitar to a breakout box and then regular mono leads from the box to each channel of my Vibrolux (or Deluxe or Pro). Usually the neck pickup goes into the reverb channel and the bridge pickup possibly with effects into the normal channel.

When the pickup switch is in the mid position, I get an out-of-phase sound. Is this correct? If not, is it fixed by reversing the magnets in one of the pups?

[mark norwine]

not to split hairs, but what you're hearing isn't "out-of-phase", it's "reversed polarity".

The issue isn't your guitar...it's the amp. All fender two-channel amps that have reverb are wired such that the polarity of the channels are incongruent with one another. I suppose Fender figured that dissimilar audio sources would be plugged into the different channels so the polarity wouldn't matter. But what you're doing...while it won't hurt the amp at all....will, indeed, yield the results you're hearing.

You could reverse one pickup magnet, but now you have an odd guitar that will sound all wrong, should you ever plug into a one-channel amp. But as long as you're aware of that implications, the short answer is "yes": With this amp, you can cure the "problem" by reversing one magnet.

mn

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by mark norwine

....The issue isn't your guitar...it's the amp. All fender two-channel amps that have reverb are wired such that the polarity of the channels are incongruent with one another. I suppose Fender figured that dissimilar audio sources would be plugged into the different channels so the polarity wouldn't matter. But what you're doing...while it won't hurt the amp at all....will, indeed, yield the results you're hearing.

As is confirmed by plugging the leads into inputs 1 and 2 of the same side. Thank you Mark.

I certainly don't want to mess with the guitar nor lug two amps to gigs - although I have had fun with that setup at home. Is there a way of reversing the polarity of one of the signals by inserting something between the guitar and the amp?

[Wally]

IF you want to hear the ES-345 the way it is intended, you have to have a stereo amp...GA-78, Ga-79...or two identical amps. I have used two Super Champs for sometime and now have a Bell GA-78(indentical amp to a Gibson or Maestro GA-78 but with different logo) which I need to recap. Nothing works quite as well as a true stereo rig.

[mark norwine]

Is there a way of reversing the polarity of one of the signals by inserting something between the guitar and the amp?

Perhaps.

Some tuner pedals invert the polarity of the signal.....I know my DOD does {then, again, you might want to strive for a better tuner than that!}

You could play with your pedals & see if anything "fixes" the situation. Of course, with a signal generator & a scope, you could tell for sure if a pedal inverts.

You could make {or have made} a unity-gain buffer pedal with the op-amp set up to invert. That would work nicely, too.

[bendaway]

Originally Posted by Robin Nahum

I restereo-ised my ES345 recently. This means it is back to the original config with a separate output for each of the two pickups via a stereo output socket.

I certainly don't want to mess with the guitar nor lug two amps to gigs -

Why did you convert your ES-345 back to stereo anyway?
Why not rewire the guitar back to conventional mono?
Without a vintage Gibson stereo amplifier it doesn't seem practical. That varitone switch and stereo wiring are fairly out of date.

[mark norwine]

opinions on varitone notwithstanding, the work-around for the stereo issue is simple: Keep two cords.

One is a cord with 2 conductor + ground and a TRS {tip-ring-sleeve...aka "stereo"} plug on one end that fans out into two, mono cables with mono{tip-sleve} plugs for stereo use.

The other cord to have is a conventional guitar cord with one mono plug {for the amp} and the other end has a TRS plug, but with the tip & ring tied together inside the plug {for the guitar}. That will work for all mono applications.

Problems solved.

[Heather Anne Peel]

On a side note, the ES-345 is my fave of this type of guitar.

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by bendaway

Why did you convert your ES-345 back to stereo anyway?
Why not rewire the guitar back to conventional mono?
Without a vintage Gibson stereo amplifier it doesn't seem practical. That varitone switch and stereo wiring are fairly out of date.

Curiosity, a desire for historical correctness and to match the text on the truss rod cover.

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by mark norwine

opinions on varitone notwithstanding, the work-around for the stereo issue is simple: Keep two cords.

One is a cord with 2 conductor + ground and a TRS {tip-ring-sleeve...aka "stereo"} plug on one end that fans out into two, mono cables with mono{tip-sleve} plugs for stereo use.

The other cord to have is a conventional guitar cord with one mono plug {for the amp} and the other end has a TRS plug, but with the tip & ring tied together inside the plug {for the guitar}. That will work for all mono applications.

Problems solved.

Thank you. Another great tip.

[Wally]

Marks suggestions are spot on. One other way to take the stereo to mono is with a Y connector. I keep one handy for the occassion.
Bendaway wrote: "Why did you convert your ES-345 back to stereo anyway?
Why not rewire the guitar back to conventional mono?
Without a vintage Gibson stereo amplifier it doesn't seem practical. That varitone switch and stereo wiring are fairly out of date."

Thanks for the chuckle, Bend. If someone has ever used one of these guitars to its fullest, they will understand that it never goes out of date....just as a Tele hasn't gone out of date. There are so many sounds in a stereo Gibson to enjoy. I got mine when I was 16, and to this day I like a gutar that has some versatility. When I set up 2 Super Champs...one per pickup...with a Morley stereo wah/pan pedal in line, I have the biggest 'Leslie' that you have heard. IMagine a Leslie 12 feet wide???? 20 feet wide???
Set up the amps with distinct sounds and shift from pickup to pickup with the pedal...you can do your own riff/answer with distinct sounds and placement of sound source. Big time fun.
Play it mono, and you still have a guitar with almost endless versatility..from big h'buckers in series to the thinnest 'gutbucket' sound you might want.
imho, the ES-345 and the big bro ES-355 are guitars for the ages...all ages.

[bendaway]

Originally Posted by Wally

Thanks for the chuckle, Bend.

Do whatever you want, you are in a minority. That old varitone switch circuit is also noisy. Over the years an ES-345 has often been rewired to standard mono with varitone disconnected, for good reasons.

[Wally]

You are right, Bendaway, I am in the minority. I was working for $48.50 @ week in the summer of '67..washing cars and doing oil changes, grease jobs..
I paid $40 a week for that guitar. If you could afford one of these in '67, you were in a minority for sure...and I was even more of a minority..of one, probably, that worked for it at age 16.
My guitar's circuit is not noisy, the cherry finish is not checked. The gold is polished away in spots where my hand would contact the bridge and pickups. She is a beauty.....it would sell anyday I want....and probably to a minority..who could appreciate her for what she is....a great guitar that is worth quite a bit more than the original $566 list cost even when you factor in inflation.
Pride and joy, bud. Stunner. Knocked out. I have read some articles about the shortcomings of the circuit. The main problem seems to be the placement of one resistor in the chain...not the basic scheme of the thing. I haven't found a good reason to pull the circuit out...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It works for me, and everyone who is lucky enough to play it goes wide-eyed.(It definitley doesn't have as serious of a tone problem as did the original Tele scheme, imo, and that guitar seems to keep on pleasing, right.)
Play what you've got...and love it while you're doing it.

[Robin Nahum]

Hi Bendaway,

I'm with Wally.

The stereo config offers lots of possibilities, especially through the use of different signal chains, and when this is combined with the Varitone you have a huge tonal palette. And my Varitone certainly isn't noisy.

I got all kinds of people living inside my ES345 from Wes Montgomery to BB King. Wes didn't use a 345 but I don't need an L5.