If someone gave you a copy of a CD...

[chet]

Originally Posted by Joel Terry

I certainly understand the concept of stealing. I also understand the concept of theft protection.

If the recording industry and artists are so concerned about pirating and theft of intellectual property, then why hasn't the industry and the artists done more to champion or develop viable theft/copy deterrents? Yes, I know there are a few deterrents in place, but it seems to me if they were as sensitive about lost revenue/royalties as they ostensibly are, I'd think they'd be putting up an even better fuss than just "Don't do it." "Don't do it" is about as much of a deterrent on music piracy as "Just say 'no'" is a deterrent on drugs. Or a tiny umbrella is a deterrent to an anvil or boulder falling on Wile E. Coyote's head. It just doesn't wash. "Don't do it." Are artists really that naive? Or are is the industry simply afraid to boost CD prices beyond a lot of consumers' purchasing threshold with the R&D costs involved in keeping up encryption methods from being "cracked"?

"Everybody complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it." See the connection to music piracy and the late, great Mr. Clemens' words?

Joel

Of course I should acknowledge that Msr. Terry had already stated things succinctly.

[Heather Anne Peel]

Originally Posted by chet

I have had this on my mind for quite awhile. IMO things were better when songs/music was only on vinyl records. At least that made it harder to copy/pirate someone elses music.
Maybe recording companies need to rethink commercial recorded music and go a different avenue to protect themselves and the artists.

I think it's probably too late for that, at this point. The best thing would be to make eveything released from this point forward encrypted and copy-proof, but even then, there's always a workaround.

Heather

[getbent]

Originally Posted by chet

I have had this on my mind for quite awhile. IMO things were better when songs/music was only on vinyl records. At least that made it harder to copy/pirate someone elses music.
Maybe recording companies need to rethink commercial recorded music and go a different avenue to protect themselves and the artists.

Ahh the good ole days! Too bad it just ain't so. Record piracy was and is a HUGE problem especially in very rural and very urban parts of the united states. There is still a record store in Santa Cruz that openly sells bootlegged cd's and tapes. It isn't hard to notice... the photocopied (not good color separations) in the old days record plants were all over especially in the southern US that were counterfeits... You can still see the cd counterfeits at lots of truck stops (I saw some today on my way home in a truck stop) they sell funky greatest hits compilations and weirdly packaged albums by big stars. RIGHT OUT IN THE OPEN. This problem isn't new, the internet has just brought it right out in the open. Kind of like identity theft. It always existed. It was always profitable, the internet just made it evident and easy to recognize.

As Pluto once said, "there is nothing new under the sun."

[Bones]

Originally Posted by firefrets

Incidently...should the maker of the tools claim royalties?

It's funny, I build houses for a living and i often ponder the unfairness of "artists" be they musician's or actors, who get royalties. When my work is done, that's it. I get paid and move on. If I got a royalty everytim these houses were re-sold at a higher price than they originally were built for, it would be pretty sweet. Afterall, it is my workmanship,"artistry"if you will, that is helping to sell and re-sell the house.

[popthree]

who doesn't have an old cassette laying around that a friend made for them?

[getbent]

Originally Posted by Bones

It's funny, I build houses for a living and i often ponder the unfairness of "artists" be they musician's or actors, who get royalties. When my work is done, that's it. I get paid and move on. If I got a royalty everytim these houses were re-sold at a higher price than they originally were built for, it would be pretty sweet. Afterall, it is my workmanship,"artistry"if you will, that is helping to sell and re-sell the house.

If you could make copies of the houses to resell (tract homes) you'd get paid like artists..... at the first sale. artists do not get royalties from used record or cd stores... so, that is why you do not get royalties on used home sales... but, as I sit in my cozy house, I do see carpenters as artists and artisans.

[Bones]

Originally Posted by getbent

If you could make copies of the houses to resell (tract homes) you'd get paid like artists..... at the first sale. artists do not get royalties from used record or cd stores... so, that is why you do not get royalties on used home sales... but, as I sit in my cozy house, I do see carpenters as artists and artisans.

Actors get paid everytime their show or movie or commercial re-runs on TV, and musicians everytime a new greatest hits package comes out they get paid all over again for the same songs that's what i'm getting at I guess.

[getbent]

ah so. as Mud put it "it's a mean old cruel world."

Think how teachers must feel! Everytime one of us doesn't do something stupid its probably because of them and they hardly get paid the first time!

[SuzyQ]

If someone burns a CD for me, and I spend a good deal of time enjoying it, I buy a copy. If it sucks, I don't. This solves it for me, personally. I REALLY doubt most people would consider doing the same. (Burned CD's don't feel real to me, anyways.)

[Tremo]

Originally Posted by Bones

When you earn money as a cover band, aren't you supposed to pay royalties on th songs you perform? I know if a high school wants to put on a "broadway" show, they have to pay for the rights.

Depends on what country you are in, the laws are inconsistent. Here in the USA, performance royalties for the songs played by cover bands are payed by the venues or clubs hiring the bands. There is a yearly formula based on the size of the club, wether they take a cover charge at the door, wether they allow dancing, how many nights a week they have music, etc... you enter all the answers and a formula tells you how much you owe on a yearly basis. The thing that sucks is there are now 3 organizations collecting these fees, and you have to pay all three. They are BMI, ASCAP and SESAC. Next time you go into your favorite watering hole that has live music, look for BMI, ASCAP and SESAC decals on or near the front door. In other countries, the bands are required to pay performance royalties.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by popthree

the future for musicians is brighter than ever before

I don't know what universe YOU live in, but in this one that's just plain wrong! Live music is dying (there are WAY less venues, paying way less money), there's practically no good music on the radio anymore, and record companies aren't investing any money in artist development anymore.

Sure, the computer revolution has made it easy to make recordings, and the internot has made it easy to make those recordings available to the whole world, but, and I say this with great regret, IT'S BECOMING IMPOSSIBLE FOR MUSICIANS TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING MUSIC.

Sigh....

Tim

[popthree]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

IT'S BECOMING IMPOSSIBLE FOR MUSICIANS TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING MUSIC.

Sigh....

Tim

i think this has always been a struggle for the majority who choose the path

btw, it's not just musicians struggling to make a living these days

[Tim Armstrong]

So in what way is the future BRIGHTER for musicians? Better lighting? More reflective surfaces?

Cheers, Tim

[DlxNashvilleLuvr]

Originally Posted by Bones

As a matter of fact I recently turned down an offer from someone on a guitar forum to trade burned obscure blues albums to benefit both of our collections.

Is the album out-of-print, is the record company still in business, or the artist still alive? If not, I don't see what a burned copy would hurt. This would be the up side, technology keeping the music alive.

I copied R.E.M.'s Murmur from the library, but ultimately decided to buy a real CD -- used, so Peter Buck is still $12 less rich from me. However now I own a real copy, which somehow makes me feel like more of a knowledgable about R.E.M.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

So in what way is the future BRIGHTER for musicians? Better lighting? More reflective surfaces?

Cheers, Tim

musicians can produce high quality products easier today than ever before. (eliminating the need to pay a studio for recording time). Bands have more power in their hands to self produce and distribute their craft than ever before.

IMO, anything that takes a step towards removing corporations from controlling the music, is a sign of hope for artists.

[Heather Anne Peel]

Yeah, in the recording sense, things are better now. But Tim is right, live music as a means of income is dying rapidly. I say this as one who lives in the so-called "live music capital of the world", as well.

[popthree]

in an effort to try and steer this away from being a thread hijack; the underground sharing of compilation CD's among friends should help, not hurt, the local music scene in your city

if you have a product that people want to buy, and you can figure out a way to market it effectively, people will buy the product

[TeleTurkey]

If it is so marketable and simple, you should be able to start a new business model yourself popthree. If it was easy to make money this way folks would do it. It still takes significant capital outlay to record, press, market and distribute CDs. You sure can't make that kind of jack playing gigs.

I can understand why you burn and distribute music if you think it helps. On the other hand it is an arguement that can easily be used to convince yourself that saving all that money is OK.

I don't think it helps musicians, and most recording/performing musicians don't think it helps either.

I guess I'm one of the few old dinosaurs that has a ton of CDs and keeps adding to his stack.

[popthree]

Originally Posted by TeleTurkey

I guess I'm one of the few old dinosaurs that has a ton of CDs and keeps adding to his stack.

i don't think so. i have an ever growing collection of CD's myself...ones that i have bought and paid for. i hope i'm not giving the impression that i sit at my computer and mass produce compilation cd's and give them out to everyone i know because i dont. but i have made a few for family and friends, always with the hope that they will listen and respond as i have to the artists i enjoy, and become fans and followers themselves.

[neocaster]

I can only speak for me, and my ethics don't have to be yours. I won't say "you shouldn't steal music, because stealing is wrong." I do say, "I won't steal music, I think it's wrong." For me it's not about illegal. I ignore lots of laws that prohibit me from doing things that I just don't believe are wrong. If you're sharing protected property and you honestly believe that it's not wrong, that's great.

One of my favorite tools to combat piracy is a little thing I noticed a few months back in my iTunes. There's a button next to albums that lets me "Gift this" to somebody else.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by popthree

musicians can produce high quality products easier today than ever before. (eliminating the need to pay a studio for recording time). Bands have more power in their hands to self produce and distribute their craft than ever before.

As a musician and home studio engineer who's recorded a few CDs for local bands (including my own), I agree that it's easier than it ever was to produce an album of songs (I'd note that access to decent quality gear is no guarantee of a decent quality recording! ). Bands DO have more power in their hands to self produce and distribute their craft.

HOWEVER, as I noted above, there are far fewer venues for live performance these days, and they pay less than they used to (drastically less if you account for inflation). If bands can't make any money or get any gigs, they're doomed. And if bands can't afford to go out on the road and pay some dues, folks aren't gonna know about them and buy their independently-released CDs.

Hey, I LOVE the DIY approach. My band recorded a CD two years ago that, according to folks who've heard it, sounds pretty good and has some good songs on it. I even was able to get some local radio airplay. We sell it at gigs and over the internet, and after two years our sales are up over two hundred units!

My band is one of the most popular bands in a busy beach resort town, gigging five times a week all summer (and a very respectable five times a month during the offseason), and we're lucky to get $450 for a gig. Since we're a three-piece, I still take home $100-130 a gig (my brother owns the PA and does the bookings, so he gets a bigger chunk).

The bottom line (literally) is that the money (and gigs in most locations) is drying up...

IMO, anything that takes a step towards removing corporations from controlling the music, is a sign of hope for artists.

I agree in principal with that, and certainly corporations like Clear Channel have destroyed radio in America, and the major record labels have gone right along with them.

I just wish a business model that promoted quality and artistic vison AND a living wage for artists would emerge!!!

Cheers, Tim

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by Heather Anne Peel

As a songwriter with copyrighted songs that have been commercially released, I definitely understand why copying and distributing music is illegal. My songs are my property, and if anyone wants to own copies of them, they have to buy them legally! Buying them doesn't give anyone the right to reproduce them for distribution.

Heather,

I can tell you one thing...I am not going to buy copies of anyone's CDs or songs -- yours or anyone else's -- unless I can get to hear them first. With the sorry state of radio today, it's not likely that I will hear much of what I would be interested in buying.

Here's an example. A friend of mine gave me a copy of Rodney Crowell's "Fate's Right Hand." I thought it was a great CD, so I went right to amazon.com and bought a copy for myself. I also bought copies of Crowell's "The Houston Kid" and "The Outsider." And, I just bought tickets to an upcoming Rodney Crowell concert.

Because of one copied CD, Crowell sold three more CDs and two tickets to a concert. Has I not heard the CD my friend copied for me, I would not have made any of those purchases as I would have had no way to know I would like Rodney Crowell's CDs.

Now, if my friend had given me a copy of a CD I did not like, I would not buy the CD. But, I was never going to buy it anyway so there was no lost sale.

Record companies and artists who take a strict "All copying is illegal" stance, are going to hurt themselves in the long run. Artists will put out CDs that do not receive any airplay because of the state of radio today. No one hears the CDs, the CDs do not sell. No one comes to the artist's concerts becuase they have never heard the music. The label drops the artist. Who wins?

Jim