Couldn't Fly with my guitar

[Robin Nahum]

In the past I have had no trouble flying with a solid body guitar in a gig bag as takeon baggage - both internationally and domestically.

Last night, my wife and I arrived at Coolangatta Airport to fly back to Sydney after visiting her daughter. I had my guitar with me. Coolangatta is in southeastern Queensland and is the centre of a major beach resort area - a lot of sun and redneck retirees kind of place. I wouldn't say it was particularly renowned as a centre of learning and scholarship.

The Virgin Airlines check-in clerk made some noises about the guitar and said that the cabin crew may decline but didn't press the point. When I got to the screeners, they wouldn't let it through. I was told that, "It could be used as a weapon mate - bludgeon somebody. Something like that happened in the United States. We don't even allow tennis racquets as take-on." (In our culture, the US is always the source of apocryphal scare stories. If anybody has concrete evidence of this incident (or not), could they please advise, and also whether it was a 24 3/4" or 25 1/2" scale length. It could make a big difference to one's swing in the cabin of a 737.)

I was ropeable but there was nothing to do but check it in. It arrived in Sydney in one piece but the bag was damaged. Virgin will pick up the tab for the repair.

This morning I spoke to the federal agency that looks after air security policy. The story is that this agency sets out a framework of rules for what can be carried on but obviously cannot countenance every possibility. It is left to each airline to add specifics as it sees fit.

There is an explicit ban on hockey sticks, as well as tennis racquets. Guitars are not explicitly addressed by the federal rules but the informant considered that they would fall into the grey area as they are "lumps of wood with long handles".

He also advised that the screeners do what the airline tells them so I should take up the issue with Virgin rather than Group 4 Securicor - which I will.

Now let me think back - how did (now Sir) Richard Branson get started in big business?

[ntasca]

On the way out of Melbourne direct to Nadi airport in Fiji last year i was told at check in that my 3/4 acoustic i was taking with me was determined to be a weapon and the cabin crew would not allow it on board. Fair enough i say, and let it be packed underneath - got it on the other end no probs.

On return, we had a stop-over at Brisbane. SO had to go from International to Domestic to fly from Brissie to Melbourne. Said to the guy at the check in counter that these were my bags and he said i'd be an idiot to check the guitar in - take it as carry on luggage! (he said it in a nice way)

Both trips were with Virgin.

Interesting aint it!
Nathan

[Robin Nahum]

That's exactly the sort of inconsistency that allows me to write to Virgin and request a clear policy.

You're a brave man checking in your acoustic. I used to check in a Tele in a hardshell case. After every flight, there was a bit more knocked out of the case.

[bebopalula]

is this the fault of the airlines...
...rather than the people who can't travel civilly on them?

[bebopalula]

"DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM!??"

[JDC]

I gig on cruise vessels and, as such, fly to and from them all the time. In my experience, how "rules" are interpreted (and their subsequent enforcement) depends ALOT alot on WHO is behind the ticketing desk and what kind of mood he/she happens to be in at the time.

2 cases in point:

1) There exists a 50 lb (domestic) and 70 lb (international) weight limit on checked luggage. Some ticketers will let a few pounds "slide" and disregard the limit while others will charge you if your bag is an ounce over the limit.

2)My guitar (in an A.T.A. approved flight case) is always a third (read: not free) piece of checked luggage. Although the airlines have "published" rates for extra/overweight bags, I've been charged varying amounts ($0, $25, $40, $50, $75, $80, and $110) for my guitar...depending on the person checking me in.

What really puzzles me is that when I pay for my guitar as an extra piece of luggage, it is covered against damage in transit (albeit only a portion of the instrument's value). However, if I place a FRAGILE sticker on it (ostensibly to have them handle it more carefully, thus avoiding any breakage and subsequent claims), the airlines no longer accept any responsibility in an instance of damage and any "coverage" for same is null and void.

Upon learning this, I removed the FRAGILE stickers as fast as I could.

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by bebopalula

"DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM!??"

Don't you mean Peter Buck? ;)

[ntasca]

Mine was a $20 acoustic that i bought especially to take with me - all care no responsbility thing. If it had have parted company with me, then i'm sure i could have coped!

Took it home and Dad stole it off me cos it 'looks' like an old Martin (its not, its some old *** thing, very ugly, but great as a wall hanger )

[Brian blaut]

If someone used ANYTHING as a weapon on an airplane here in the US, it would be front page in every paper and evening news program in the country. So its safe to say a guitar has never been used or even talked about used in that manner.

[Big John]

It's become so much of a lottery now about "what can and what cant" be allowed and "who will and who wont" i have gone back to checking it in and sending it in the hold.
For years now i have been taking it on board in a gig bag (a tele fits easily in most overhead lockers), but have had so much hassle doing that in the last years or so i bought the smallest SKB flight case i could find and so far ...... fingers VERY crossed .... me and the Tele have both got there in one piece !!
FWIW, i often used to ring ahead to check if i could take it on and some airlines were very helpful and would give me a name of someone to see at the airport just to ease my way but now i spend that time rolling some gaffa around the catches just in case something pops.
One of the "budget" airlines here is now charging £5 for every item being checked in regardless of size/weight, i thought cheap air travel meant the ticket price, not the way the customrs are treated.

[Telenator]

I call ahead and get a name.

If I know I'm going to be flying with my guitar, I will call the airline ahead of time and let them know the date and flight number and so far I haven't had a problem. When my '55 Les Paul is restored next month I plan on flying out to pick it up. No way I'm letting UPS get their mitts on that one!

[bebopalula]

Originally Posted by Scott S

Don't you mean Peter Buck? ;)

could be.

i guess his 15 min of fame are over.

after the "7 Chinese Brothers" era,
i lost track.

thanks for the correction.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by Telenator

I call ahead and get a name.

If I know I'm going to be flying with my guitar, I will call the airline ahead of time and let them know the date and flight number and so far I haven't had a problem. When my '55 Les Paul is restored next month I plan on flying out to pick it up. No way I'm letting UPS get their mitts on that one!

The safest way is to buy a ticket for it.

News crews often buy seats for their big TV cameras.

That way, you get to eat "Mr. Gibson's" lunch, too. :D

[FunkJazz]

from what i understand, at least in the states, the TSA has decided that instruments have to be ckecked as luggage.

"gate checking" is no longer allowed.

i haven't been let through the security checks with a guitar since Feb of this year.

[charlie chitlin]

Actually...the last I heard, the NTSB (isn't that it? National Transportation Safety Bureau) decided that musical instruments will be allowed on the plane as carry-on luggage.
Looks like time to check it out for sure.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by charlie frey

Actually...the last I heard, the NTSB (isn't that it? National Transportation Safety Bureau) decided that musical instruments will be allowed on the plane as carry-on luggage.
Looks like time to check it out for sure.

I've heard the same.

[aunchaki]

Originally Posted by charlie frey

Actually...the last I heard, the NTSB (isn't that it? National Transportation Safety Bureau) decided that musical instruments will be allowed on the plane as carry-on luggage.

I just searched the National Transportation Safelty Board's website (http://www.ntsb.gov/). Searching for "guitar" yielded no hits. Searching for "musical instruments" yielded 2 hits. Both documents mentioned musical instruments once, in the context of carry-on luggage that requires its own seat (e.g. "musical instruments, television cameras, etc...").

I don't think NTSG is a regulatory agency -- they don't make the rules. They do research and advise agencies, but I bet FAA and TSA are the real rulemakers here.

Ug. I'm flying in July. I'm buying an ATA case and checking my acoustic. Keep your fingers crossed.

[Jon C]

Originally Posted by FunkJazz

from what i understand, at least in the states, the TSA has decided that instruments have to be ckecked as luggage.

"gate checking" is no longer allowed.

i haven't been let through the security checks with a guitar since Feb of this year.

Not quite... the TSA has an agreement with the musician's union that instruments may be carried on in addition to the allowed baggage. The airline, may, however, require it to be checked.

Although I never assume anymore that I'll get any instrument on the plane, I did walk on & off coming & going from Wash., DC to Ft. Lauderdale last month with my Steinberger Spirit (small headless guit in gig bag).

You can find a copy of the AFM letter around the 'net. I had no problem at security checkpoints with my Steiny.

[FunkJazz]

Originally Posted by Jon C

Not quite... the TSA has an agreement with the musician's union that instruments may be carried on in addition to the allowed baggage. The airline, may, however, require it to be checked.

Although I never assume anymore that I'll get any instrument on the plane, I did walk on & off coming & going from Wash., DC to Ft. Lauderdale last month with my Steinberger Spirit (small headless guit in gig bag).

You can find a copy of the AFM letter around the 'net. I had no problem at security checkpoints with my Steiny.

Cool!

Links for the uninformed?

[neocaster]

Robin,

Now that they've screwed you, can you petition to make them change the name to something other than "Virgin Airlines"?

[telel6s]

If I understand all this correctly, it is still up to the boarding agent at the gate as to whether you can take an instrument on board. So if your flight out is only 75% full they might let it on the plane but if your flight home is 100% full you might have no option other than to gate check it. The letter with the AFM letter is supposed to make things easier, but the fact remains that most guitars are going to be larger than the airlines' size restrictions for carry-on luggage.

And each airline is different. I believe Southwest just has a strict "no guitars" policy, althought that may only apply to full-size and not travel-size instruments.

I bought a Taylor Baby last year with one of the thoughts being the ability to take it on planes. But due to all this uncertainty I never have done it. I even sold the hard-case I had for the Baby.

[fungusyoung]

Originally Posted by telel6s

And each airline is different. I believe Southwest just has a strict "no guitars" policy, althought that may only apply to full-size and not travel-size instruments.

I sure hope this is wrong or else the little recording session we have planned in a couple weeks will be a big bummer. I planned to carry a Martin on in a gig bag with no other carry-on. I've never had a problem with SW before... was considering taking an acoustic with me to NM next week too in order to practice a bit, but....

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

The safest way is to buy a ticket for it.

News crews often buy seats for their big TV cameras.

That way, you get to eat "Mr. Gibson's" lunch, too. :D

Hi Joe-Bob,

Two issues there.

If an airline takes the view that guitars are potential weapons, it should not allow guitars in the cabin, whether as take-on baggage or "Lucille King". On the other hand, it might be interesting to see what same airline does when money is on the table.

A second airline lunch? Mmmm.... not sure. :D

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by telel6s

If I understand all this correctly, it is still up to the boarding agent at the gate as to whether you can take an instrument on board. So if your flight out is only 75% full they might let it on the plane but if your flight home is 100% full you might have no option other than to gate check it. The letter with the AFM letter is supposed to make things easier, but the fact remains that most guitars are going to be larger than the airlines' size restrictions for carry-on luggage.

And each airline is different. I believe Southwest just has a strict "no guitars" policy, althought that may only apply to full-size and not travel-size instruments.

According to the check-in clerks, whether or not it goes as take-on baggage is up to the cabin crew.

In terms of developing policy, the situation is indeed confused by the fact that guitars may be hollow or solid body and that hollows normally take up more space and are not as robust as solids, which can usually slide into gaps. Maybe the rule needs to be based on the external dimensions of the gig-bag?

Thanks for the thread guys. I will be drafting the letter to Virgin on Wednesday night and will allude to it.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Robin Nahum

Now let me think back - how did (now Sir) Richard Branson get started in big business?

Selling cheap records at the Reading Festival. :)

[Tim Armstrong]

FWIW, my brother, our sax player and I just flew on Northwest Airlines to New Orleans from Washington, DC (where they take airplane security pretty seriously!) two weeks ago, and we had no trouble bringing on Mike's Gibson SG (in a hardshell case) and John's sax (ditto). Both were stowed in the overhead, on absolutely full flights, with no trouble at all...

Cheers, Tim

[Robin Nahum]

Mr Brett Godfrey
CEO, Virgin Blue Airlines Pty Ltd
PO Box 1034
Spring Hill
Qld 4004

20 May 2006

Dear Mr Godfrey,

I am writing to seek clarification of Virgin Blue's policy on traveling with a solid-body guitar as carry-on baggage. This arises from a refusal by Group4/Tempo screeners at Coolangatta Airport on the night of Sunday 30 April to allow mine to pass through the gate (flight DJ530). The screeners advised that the guitar could be used as a weapon citing that one had been used one as a bludgeon on a flight in the US.

I have not encountered this problem previously, neither on international nor domestic flights, including with Virgin Blue. The flight was not particularly full.

I protested but in the end had no choice but to check it in. Virgin check-in staff were of no assistance at all and told me that if they attempted to override the screeners, it would be like telling them to let me take a knife aboard".

The guitar is in a padded gig bag rather than a hard case and, being quite flat, fits readily into an overhead locker. I do not check it as luggage because the risk of damage is very high. I have previously checked in a guitar in a plastic hard shell case and the case was damaged on each flight. An aluminum-edged flight case is not an effective option as I am not traveling as a professional musician and it would be impractical at the destination.

On arrival in Sydney, I found one of the buckles to be broken and had to arrange for it to be repaired with the assistance of your Baggage Blues service. This has now been done albeit at some inconvenience to me but thank you for your service here.

The following morning, I spoke to the aviation security section at the federal Department of Transport in Canberra. As you would know, they advise that certain items in the nature of, "a piece of wood with a lump on the end" such as tennis racquets and hockey sticks are specifically exempt as carry-on baggage while others, including guitars, are left to the discretion of the airline. They also advised that the screeners, although engaged by the airport, would have been acting on the instruction of Virgin Blue.

Nobody at a US-based Internet forum for guitar players that I visit has heard of a guitar being used as a bludgeon on a flight. As one contributor pointed out, given the current mood, such an event would have made the front page of every US newspaper.

Another contributor to the thread advised that he had had no trouble taking a guitar as carry-on flying out of Melbourne and had in fact been advised to do so by Virgin staff.

Virgin Blue seeks to portray itself as an informal, friendly airline but one that is also efficient and effective. On this occasion, it came across as a "Jobsworth" outfit.

So as to avoid uncertainty in the future, I would be grateful if you could advise the actual position.


Thanking you


Robin Nahum

[tjalla]

Last month I was travelling international/domestic/bus/small plane/domestic/international (you get the picture...) with two guitars, and I knew checking in two hard cases was asking for troube (damage, loss etc). I managed to fit both guitars unassembled ie unbolted necks - into my suitcase (big enough that the necks fitted diagonally) with each guitar body in a soft gigbag, along with my clothes as extra padding. So I only checked in one piece of luggage and hand carried a small backpack. Too easy.

The slight hassle of unassembling the guitars was worth, IMO the peace of mind at the terminal. Fwiw, one guitar was my new CIJ 50s RI tele, the other was a Yamaha AEX500 thinline full hollow jazz/acoustic guitar, and it survived all the travels without a hitch.

That said, I think you should be able to handcarry a softbag, and I've done that in the past too (international flights) without concern. Heck, I even once handcarried my 1967 ES-330 in a hardcase because I insisted it to be a fragile vintage piece. All the best with Virgin...

Trevor

[moondoggie999]

Had to go back to NY for a week, took my guitar with me. I gate checked the guitar going but coming back the TSA guard MADE ME CHECK MY GUITAR just like your normal baggage. By then I had checked 2 bags, so they charged me $80 !!!!! RIPOFF!!

all depends on the mood of the people in charge on that particular day, huh?

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by moondoggie999

all depends on the mood of the people in charge on that particular day, huh?

I actually make it a point, where possible, to line up at a teller with a "happy" face, even if its not the shortest line... you can tell those who are there to help you, and those who are there to make your days as miserable as theirs :?

Trevor

[captain gorgeous]

i'm flying from london to the czech republic this week and i want to take an acoustic in a hardshell. i'm pretty sure that:

- it's too big for hand luggage
- the budget airline i'm flying with charge for checking two pieces of luggage
- my hardcase isn't quite up to "flight" standards
- i'd be inconsolable if anything happened to my guitar

at the moment i'm planning on throwing my clothes in my girlfriend's case, covering the guitar case in fragile stickers, adding extra padding inside and gaffa taping the latches up.

any better suggestions?

[Big John]

"Yes" to the gaffa around the latches, thats the worst, if the latches fly open.
Don't know where you are flying from but check it in and then ask for "special handling", you can then walk it to a different check in where "odd" packages go, it will be X-rayed there and then and you can check or open the case if asked (rather than the handlers), i feel a tiny bit happier that is put on top of the pile of squeezed in suitcases on those trolleys !
Would hold off on too many of the "Fragile" stickers though, i think they just act as a challenge to some baggage handlers, one on a guitar shaped case should get the message across.

Can you borrow/hire a Martin type case ?

Will be interesting to see if Robin Nahum gets a response from his eMail, i am now going to "check in" mine all the time just to avoid the aggro.

[captain gorgeous]

thanks big john!

yeah i'm flying from stanstead. i think i'll ring ahead and make sure that's possible.

what do you mean my a "martin style" case? it's in a moulded plastic hard-case with aluminium edging . it's pretty tough but has a bit of give in it. i mean i'd happily sit on the edges of it but wouldn't want to apply any serious pressure to the top or bottom as i'm pretty sure it would bow inwards a bit. :?

[Big John]

At Stansted "special handling" is way over on your left as you are coming in the front doors but check in will tell you how to get there, you can carry on through there to passport control.
Sounds like you have the case i was thinking of, my Tele goes in the smallest SKB and fingers crossed has been fine (so far), (guess i shouldn't have said that).
I think the key is that the guitar is rigid in the case, doesnt matter how strong the case is if its rattling around inside it so a few socks and pants can be handy to keep it in place, and when you come home no-one is going to want to mess with it ! :-)
The only other method is, front up to the check in, check your bags through but don't let them see the guitar then when asked by anyone after that say "The girl at check in said i could", it does work but thats very, VERY risky nowadays.
When you check it through DONT lose the receipt you get, should the worst happen the airlines will pay, i know, it won't replace THAT instrument, i know this is pretty glib but if you really, really, really can't live without that one maybe a cheaper one would be better ?
If it was me i would (and do) pack it in the case and convince myself i have been a good boy all year so dont deserve the hassle of a damaged guitar.

[captain gorgeous]

cheers big john! appreciate all that. it's my only acoustic so taking a cheaper one isn't really an option. i'll take all reasonable precautions suggested and will ring ahead regarding special handling. thanks again.

ak.

[rmconner80]

Yep, it all comes down to who is behind the counter, what airline it is, and where you are going.

I flew to Costa Rica out of DC in March and checked a 6-6 surfboard in an approximately 7-4 board flight bag.

Luckily it didn't suffer any damage...

I was charged $50 per way, which was fine with me. The policy (US Air) is for $80 for eaach oversize luggage item (and my board bag exeeded even those length requirements!). It seems they have policies for items, but also a series of rates and exceptions for such items as surfboards, guitar and other instrument cases, etc. which may/may not be enforced, depending on the person behind the counter making the decisions.

Also, if you are flying to Costa Rica with a surfboard, you'll probably pay less than if you were flying to say IOWA with a surfboard. It comes down to what they are used to seeing as checked luggage.

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by Big John

Will be interesting to see if Robin Nahum gets a response from his eMail....

I've actually sent a letter. That's just the content up there. Letters carry more weight.

[Big John]

Sorry, yes, a letter is certainly more 'business like'.
It would be good to see the answer but i'm sure it WONT be the same one globaly, i have several more flights to do this year and would still prefer the 'Tele in the overhead locker.
What really ticks me off is when you see the bozo's in front of you taking on fishing rods, huge back packs and even once i saw a bicycle being pushed through Heathrow that looked like it was going on as 'hand' luggage but not my bl**dy Tele !!

'On yer Robin

[Robin Nahum]

A reply from Virgin was waiting for me when I got home on Monday night.

Did they say:

(a) sorry we goofed. Please present this letter next time you fly for premium service. We will provide a special place in the cabin for your Benedetto. A small Polytone will be available for you to practise with on our longer flights.

(b) we live in awful times and a guitar was too used as a bludgeon on a flight in the US. It needs to be checked in.

(c) none of the above?

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If you guessed (c) you were correct. The reply said that guitars are bigger than the allowable limit for carry-on and must be checked in.

I don't know that this takes us forward a great deal. If it was as simple as this, why would most clerks allow a guitar as carry-on, and why would the goons do the jobsworth thing?

I'll try and get a transcript up asap.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by Robin Nahum

(In our culture, the US is always the source of apocryphal scare stories. If anybody has concrete evidence of this incident (or not), could they please advise, and also whether it was a 24 3/4" or 25 1/2" scale length. It could make a big difference to one's swing in the cabin of a 737.)

It ****s me as much as it ****s you mate.

Cat