Does the internet ruin rock music for kids?

[Great Ape]

As I was cruising the internet the other day, I was ruminating about the loss of the mystery that used to be associated with bands back in the vinyl era. Take Zep: you didn't see pictures of them on the LP covers, nor did you get any other details, really - so they came across to my adolescent mind as these near-mythic figures, which heightened the mystique. I guess those days are gone. These days, you can probably go on the net and get your favourite guitarist's blood group and credit card number. For better or for worse?

[Geyser]

I tend to agree with you, Ape. However, I think the net helps people find music and bands that they might never ever find without it. I do agree that most music websites are just overkill though. Most are full of "style" over "substance" anyway. I want sound samples, live dates, and a discography/history, not necessarily 400 photos of the band from the same two gigs plus pics of all their friends (I shouldn't talk; my bands website has plenty of this crap. Oh well).
Another aspect of the internet era worth debating is the fact that I still am a CD buyer and a lot of my friends think I am nuts. They ask, "Why do you buy a disc when you can just download it?" I just like having the "hard copy" of something. I like reading the liner notes and lyrics and seeing the artwork and photos. It's not the same as listening to a burned copy of a disc. Even when I burn a CD, I also make a cover with the track listing and some sort of graphic design. I'm not against downloading from a moral standpoint as the artists are probably making more of their money from touring and merchandise than CD sales. If anything, I'd rather keep the money out of the record company pockets. Where were the feds when everyone was buying those dual-cassette players and making copies of tapes? I don't see it as a big deal and I will burn or download some things to try them out, but for the most part, I just like to have the actual hard copy.

[Great Ape]

I'm old-school in this regard. I like having a big pile of cd's in the corner of the room.

I didn't used to have a problem with record companies per se - they took the big chunk of the profit because they made the outlay. Maybe the internet changes that.....but I am very regretful that it makes theft of music so easy. I don't think music should be free. It's an artist's livelihood, after all.

[stevieboy]

I'm even more old school--I miss vinyl and I think VIDEOS ruined music.

Okay, I love CD's for their convenience, never owned any stereo equipment good enough to hear the difference between digital and analog, but I really liked the package that 33's came in, you could actually see the artwork and the size encouraged good graphics and photographs.--not that weren't lots of bad examples of album art, but that's another thread.

But the loss of imagination described earlier has really been created by videos. Now the visual track is supplied, the days of hearing a song on the radio and creating images in your mind's eye are gone. And also a lot of artists have hit it big simply because they can dance, which is of course a talent, but the songs in many cases are totally empty, just a beat and a vehicle to make a dance video, things that would never have gotten a second listen before videos. There have been videos that I've liked of course, and I really like live performance clips made into videos.

[Great Ape]

Yeah, I mean, the LP of 'Presence' - what a cover. I guess CD booklet designers now have to think small. Would any of those great Storm Thorgerson covers of the 70's have happened in the CD era?

Also - I may be crazy, but I swear my old cassette copies of records sound better (deeper?) than cd reissues.

[teledude66]

it'a all about the experience i think, kids of today won't really know they missed out on something, i've heard them say the effects in Star Wars are amatuerish and unreal, but when i first saw it it was awesome. same thing with records, it was so mystical to a point the smell of vinyl the hours spent checking out the art work, now with a cheap pc everyone can be a recording artist...

on the flipside it helps us be more accessible to out of print or very hard to find music, and ways to have said music where ever we go....

[Great Ape]

I'm really going to go out on a limb here, but does anyone think we have too much music now? To expand: in the 70's, sure, there was a lot of crap, but far more quality music than now - I mean: James Brown, The Meters, Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan, The Band, Larry Graham, Zep, Nick Drake, etc, etc.....but of course, kids had less opportunity to buy records, as they tended to have less disposeable income (and no free downloads). Although I grew up in the 1980's, my situation was much the same as described. But this meant that we spent time with LP's and really got to know and love them. You had ten or twenty LP's you lived your life to. Does that happen now? Has it all been watered down?

[Charlie Bernstein]

...they have their own magic. it's like, when i was a kid in the '50s/'60's, my old man mourned all the cool stuff they had when he was a kid that had faded away - radio mysteries, vaudeville, movie serials, big band.

of course, his generation also had two world wars, the flu, and a holocaust. so he didn't exactly mind the trade-off. plus, he was crazy about tv. and who needs radio and stage and movie theaters and live dances if you can turn on the tube? what a labor-saving device!

as for led zep. that was the kind of thing that he'd never get. but what he also didn't get was that it wasn't aimed at him. it was aimed at me. and i got it. that first album was magic.

anyhow, i decided that if i ever had kids, i'd do my best to remember that every generation has its own magic - even if it doesn't work on me.

(like american idol. what's that for?!?!?!...oops. there i go...)

[Great Ape]

Ok.....it's given as read that I'm too old to be 'down with the kids' and as I don't have any, I have no connection to the 'youth of today', but for those who do...is there any mystery left for them, or has the net killed that?

[chago04]

I saw the discussion going somewhere that I feel needs to be addressed. The quality of today's music has declined such that I don't think my money deserves to be spent on this trash before I hear it. I am a fan of downloading music, but if I hear something I like, I go buy their cd. If I dont like it, I delete the mp3s of the said CD. This being said, what the internet has done for me is incredible stuff. I know listen to bands I never would have listened to before, and I think that generation-mp3 has forced music companies, recording artists, and everyone involved in the music industry to produce a good copy if they want to make a living from it.

[Bob Rogers]

I don't think I buy the argument that videos or internet access have robbed musicians of glamour and mystery. Movie stars have always had that and their mugs are up on the silver screen as big as Volkswagons. Certainly the relationship between fans and musicians has changed, but Liz Taylor was considered mysterious when the details of her marriage were fodder for the daily gossip sheets. Why not musicians now?

[Suitor_Stu]

as an official member of 'the yoof 2day' (aged 19years and 9 months) i have to say that yes - i think the internet has removed some of the mistique behind bands, but that this is a VERY GOOD thing! It means as a fan you feel more in touch with the bands - like they are your friends, who you could meet on a night out, or can takt to for ages without feeling awestruck!

Take one of my fave bands The Libertines (the pervious band of Mr Peter Doherty, who youve prob heard of as Kate Moss's Junkie Boyfriend no doubt) for an example - they used to organise gigs at a minutes notice by using their website forums, and as a result, people got to go see them play in various small bars across london and the like (remember this band are used to playing venues of about 5000 capacity, so its always a treat!). They also posted demos on their site, and asked the fans oppinions on things. Its amazing to feel like you have a connection with who you are seeing on stage - not just because of what theyre singing about, but because the way they interacted with you outside the gig made it feel like they were actually your closest friends!

Theres tonnes of bands doing this these days, and while it does detract from the god-like persona of rock stars of old, i dont think its bad at all. I love it!!!

Thats me. Stu

[Great Ape]

Originally Posted by Suitor_Stu

as an official member of 'the yoof 2day' (aged 19years and 9 months) i have to say that yes - i think the internet has removed some of the mistique behind bands, but that this is a VERY GOOD thing! It means as a fan you feel more in touch with the bands - like they are your friends, who you could meet on a night out, or can takt to for ages without feeling awestruck!

Take one of my fave bands The Libertines (the pervious band of Mr Peter Doherty, who youve prob heard of as Kate Moss's Junkie Boyfriend no doubt) for an example - they used to organise gigs at a minutes notice by using their website forums, and as a result, people got to go see them play in various small bars across london and the like (remember this band are used to playing venues of about 5000 capacity, so its always a treat!). They also posted demos on their site, and asked the fans oppinions on things. Its amazing to feel like you have a connection with who you are seeing on stage - not just because of what theyre singing about, but because the way they interacted with you outside the gig made it feel like they were actually your closest friends!

Hmmm. Is that not just more savvy marketing?

[Suitor_Stu]

Originally Posted by Great Ape

Hmmm. Is that not just more savvy marketing?

In what way exactly? Its raising the profile of the band amongst fans yes, for sure but what record company in their right mind would release versions of the bands songs available for FREE download on the website before the album came out? Surely if their press statements are anything to go by, free downloads are loosing them and the the artists millions in royalties...

Also, take the example of the band Test Icicles - not a band anyone here will have heard of granted cos theyve just signed a record deal. However, they never had a 'demo' in the traditional sence. Instead they put their music up on www.myspace.com along with a profile for their close friends to view. Their reputuation grew solely from the online community, and they got A&R people contacting them cos of the buzz they had created themsleves (with NO manager, and NO record company backing!)! They also did an experimant to sho how strong their online following was buy arranging a gig 24 hours in advance, but only contacting their myspace community through SMS messages and email (no adverts in the music press etc.). They had a few hundred people turn up to a record shop to see them - just through word of mouth. And its not just the case for them, but many other new bands in the UK and US.

Stu

[Suitor_Stu]

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention aswell, that on all the forums that ive been to, the band members actually post topics and reply to things themsleves - i dont think they are being pushed to by the record company execs, i believe that its through a genuine want to converse with the fans.

Its my view that it makes for a more exciting experience - but thats prob cos its what ive grown up with! Ive started to think too that the bands who DONT hvae this connection with their fans and who claim to be the Artistes and want to be left alone are in dire need of a good slap! Infact its probably MORE savvy marketing that got them there in the first place - like Oasis, self proclaimed 'band of the people' but yet look down on all their fans? How does that figure?

Stu

[68tele]

I agree with you on Oasis. When they played NYC after first becoming huge one reviewer wrote: "Never has a band given so little and expected so much".

[Great Ape]

Yeah, I'd say the thing with Oasis though is that whilst they have the popular vote, they haven't got the goods. And on that note, I shall deftly avoid falling into the new vs old argument......

[Suitor_Stu]

Originally Posted by Great Ape

Yeah, I'd say the thing with Oasis though is that whilst they have the popular vote, they haven't got the goods. And on that note, I shall deftly avoid falling into the new vs old argument......

Nah, go right on ahead! Im not a big Oasis fan myself (always been much more of a Blur guy anyway - but thats beside the point) but i think it kinda proves that theres not really a place for egos in music today - if you look at the majors like Coldplay, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand even Morrissey has toned down his persona (all be it just a wee bit...) the notible exception being of course U2...but of the others they are always staying in close contact with the fans.

Stu

[Skully]

But the loss of imagination described earlier has really been created by videos.

Videos are not as important as they were 10 and 20 years ago, largely because the outlets for them (mainly large blocks of time on MTV and VH1) have dried up. I believe the Rolling Stones are just now getting around to filming the first video for "A Bigger Bang." It's a clip for "Streets of Love" that will be featured in a big promotional tie-in with the soap opera "General Hospital." Chew on that.

Also, people moaning about what that newfangled CD format has done to the music biz should realize that it's and old technology with one foot on the scrapheap, thanks to digital downloading.

The industry is already preparing for the next wave of DVDs (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD), which not only provide higher quality picture, but also much greater content protection for the studios, etc.

[Great Ape]

Originally Posted by Suitor_Stu

Nah, go right on ahead! Im not a big Oasis fan myself (always been much more of a Blur guy anyway - but thats beside the point) but i think it kinda proves that theres not really a place for egos in music today - if you look at the majors like Coldplay, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand even Morrissey has toned down his persona (all be it just a wee bit...) the notible exception being of course U2...but of the others they are always staying in close contact with the fans.

Stu

That's a shame, I feel. Being a child of the 80's, I want to feel that there's something special (and even a little arrogant) about great rock musicians. No-one ever achieved greatness in any field by being mediocre and 'the guy next door.' IAnd if you don't have a bit of personality, you'd better have talent by the truckload (which is plainly absent from Coldplay, for example).

[Professor SourTone]

Originally Posted by Suitor_Stu

In what way exactly? Its raising the profile of the band amongst fans yes, for sure but what record company in their right mind would release versions of the bands songs available for FREE download on the website before the album came out? Surely if their press statements are anything to go by, free downloads are loosing them and the the artists millions in royalties...

Also, take the example of the band Test Icicles - not a band anyone here will have heard of granted cos theyve just signed a record deal. However, they never had a 'demo' in the traditional sence. Instead they put their music up on www.myspace.com along with a profile for their close friends to view. Their reputuation grew solely from the online community, and they got A&R people contacting them cos of the buzz they had created themsleves (with NO manager, and NO record company backing!)! They also did an experimant to sho how strong their online following was buy arranging a gig 24 hours in advance, but only contacting their myspace community through SMS messages and email (no adverts in the music press etc.). They had a few hundred people turn up to a record shop to see them - just through word of mouth. And its not just the case for them, but many other new bands in the UK and US.

Stu

The Libertines thing works because the fans will buy the record as well as the download. The problem the Libertines have is that they sound (quote) "like the Jam falling down a flight of stairs". Not necessarily a bad thing but not great for radio.

[Suitor_Stu]

to be fair though, most of the bands i really like are pretty small (ie they play King Tuts, The Barrowlands etc. to crowds of between 200-2000) so for them to have any arrogance would be kinda strange! But its whatever floats your boat i suppose - im not into egos, and the bands i like dont ave em, so im happy! But its what your used to i suppose - my dads the same, he wants bands to be some sort of out of reach people, which is okay by me, im just from a different time, thats all!

As for the libs, yeah they are/were quite a (baby)shambles - little crap pun there for the libs fans, but once again the internet has made them what they are - cos like you said, they didnt get much airplay at all! and surely any way in which new bands can distribute music and get heard should be welcomed?

Stu

[Professor SourTone]

Most great performers/songwriters in popular music have the ability to convince their fans that they are somehow available/identifiable with, and yet unattainable at the same time. I don't think the media changes that, may even intensify it.

[DlxNashvilleLuvr]

Let the record show another child of the `80's in this thread. Yes, I have to say that as a fan it was more colorful then. Van Halen, Motley Crue, Cinderella...these guys were supposed to live in an alternate universe of fast cars, faster women, and huge houses. Going to the concert was where you got a glimpse of that alternate universe. "Wow, there's the real Eddie Van Halen!" The videos didn't wreck this, they only reinforced the imagery.

Now that bands come out on stage looking like refugees from a college dormatory and you can e-mail them...it's fun, too, I guess, but it suddenly makes even rock stardom seem more plain and everyday. Your dentist, the rock star, the stock boy at Wal-Mart...all the same.

(Yes, I like CDs. I don't want a record company to be able to have a song auto-delete itself from my iPod after six months, and then I have to pay a renewal fee like Shareware. You know that's next.)

[teledude66]

i think it's just the place in time that is what the real debate is about. yes we are older but it's not about the quality or amount of music for me. it's more of a loss of the tangible aspect of the big albums versus Kb's streamed from a device (yes i have an ipod also) i think it really started with cd's, yes they are great, but there's something to hearing the needle hit the vinyl and those lil scratchy sounds right before the HiFi song kicks in, for me it's a sadness that my kids, unless i find a turntable, won't know that. as far as internet and friends of the band, i think the attention span of the masses is limited and to an extent, you can't listen to all the good bands so you have to pick and choose, i think this will make the core fans that much more meaningful....