Cassette Masters

Oster · October 5th, 2005, 11:49 AM

Has anyone tried using a good quality cassette as a 2-track master for their home studio projects?

I know there must be inherent limitations but I imagine that the advantages might outweigh them:

-Analog compression
-Better long-term storage abilities
-Cheaper and (for the moment) more accessable that 1/4"

I've been thinking of buying up a bunch of Maxell 60's and getting my old Sony deck up and running to use as a 'mastering facility' for the digital recordings I make.

Any opinions or experience with this?

Skully · October 5th, 2005, 02:37 PM

IMHO, If you're thinking tape, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Why not just store the master digitally with a back-up or two? A cassette master would be very noisy and nothing you'd want to use to create copies from.

J-man · October 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM

I agree with Skully, Tapes are one of the worst ways to store recordings IMO.

Poppatwang · October 5th, 2005, 02:48 PM

won't do that. Back in my caveman days of open reel
4 track, I'd master to cassette out of necessity.
Sonically, it's a turd format & I've had a lot of tapes
go bad with drop-outs (many brands).

Tim Armstrong · October 5th, 2005, 03:10 PM

If you really want to avoid mastering to digital, you might try mastering to the audio input on a HIFI VHS deck. Much higher quality than cassette.

I master to my hard drive, and burn to a high-quality CDr, myself...

Cheers, Tim

maestrovert · October 5th, 2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oster

......Better long-term storage abilities.....

Any opinions or experience with this?

you're quite mistaken on the storage point my friend.....
you need only to consider the physical and chemical make up of the tape itself to realize this....

Oster · October 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM

Tape, as I understand it, may deteriorate over time but can actually be restored - if need be - by baking (this reattaches the ferrite to the mylar backing). This and other repair techniques like splicing would be unthinkable with a digital medium. When those 1s and 0s are corrupted: goodbye music.

That's what I like about tape. The music is there, no matter what, in real time. Also, especially with 1/4" reel to reel, that natural tape compression is a thing of beauty to my ears (even a little hiss, too!).

I know cassette is a whole different ballgame but FWIW I seem to recall enjoying the sound of mixed tapes a whole lot more than all-digital stuff.

I know it's a kooky idea but I have to admit, I'm curious enough to give it a try. I just now bought five 60 min Maxells from the dollar store for under $10.00. If it works, it'll be a cost effective little shortcut for me.

Of course saying that, I can vividly recall that sinking feeling of knowing that a prized cassette was being mulched yet again by my player!

Tim Armstrong · October 5th, 2005, 05:30 PM

Cassette tape just isn't very high quality. The physical width of the tracks and the tape speed are both working against you. And cassettes can and do deteriorate! If you REALLY want a long-term storage solution, get a disc lathe and cut your masters to vinyl!

Digital doesn't HAVE to sound bad or sterile. It helps to use high quality A/D and D/A converters. If you're recording digitally, you're already dealing with the devil, so why worry about the master?

Cheers, Tim

Oster · October 5th, 2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

get a disc lathe and cut your masters to vinyl!

I can dream! :)

Skully · October 5th, 2005, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Tape, as I understand it, may deteriorate over time but can actually be restored - if need be - by baking (this reattaches the ferrite to the mylar backing).

I've never heard that done with a cassette. And when it's done with a larger format reel to reel, you basically get one pass, then the tape is toast.

maestrovert · October 6th, 2005, 03:35 AM

tape on metal reels could be "baked"
the cassette "shell" would never survive it without warping so badly as to be unplayable

and even if by some miracle the cassette did survive,
you might get one pass, so your transfer had better be good.....remember you'd lose a generation in the transfer process, and would probably end up going to digital in any case....

Poppatwang · October 6th, 2005, 08:19 AM

won't put back the oxide that sloughed off all over
the heads & rollers & as was said, you can't bake a
cassette.

Of all the options available you seem determined to use
the worst one. Inferior sound & non-archive quality
storage medium all in one obsolete package.

Oster · October 6th, 2005, 10:39 AM

My most important archives are on 1/4" reel. My CDs are transferred from these. I'm in no way an analog snob but I do find that most of my favorite sounding records were generally cut pre-1980 (oddly enough, many homespun digital records that I've heard of late sound far better to me than most high-end professional new releases).

I actually really like Digital for many reasons: Its convenience and versatility are undeniable. I just find that a really nice 'icing on the cake' effect is tape compression. I like it so much that it's simply easier to use tape than to seek out a digital emulation of the effect. Also, the added bonus of an analog master, in addition to a digital (CD) one is compelling. I don't own my own reel to reel machine so I was thinking of a cheaper way to do it.

The reason I brought up the baking process was because I really am a fan of 'repairable' things. I like stereo equipment that you can dismantle with a screwdriver to service and other things that cannot be lost with the flick of a switch or an accidental 'undo/redo' command. I don't seriously think cassettes are good candidates for the baking restoration process although good cassettes can be taken apart and perhaps the two little reels could be conceivably given the treatment in that way. Who knows?

What I'm going to attempt is a CD transfer from a cassette 2-track 'master' to see if the tape compression is pleasing and enhancing or not. I would still have my digital masters on hand as archives. I know cassettes can sound really awful but I have a few that I still listen to that sound pretty good. There's a specific effect that I like/that I'm looking for.

On a somewhat related note: You have to admit, making a mixed tape was way more engrossing than making a mixed CD or iPod shuffle could ever be.

October 5th, 2005, 11:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
Oster Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Melonville, Ontario Age: 38 Posts: 2,491	Cassette Masters Has anyone tried using a good quality cassette as a 2-track master for their home studio projects? I know there must be inherent limitations but I imagine that the advantages might outweigh them: -Analog compression -Better long-term storage abilities -Cheaper and (for the moment) more accessable that 1/4" I've been thinking of buying up a bunch of Maxell 60's and getting my old Sony deck up and running to use as a 'mastering facility' for the digital recordings I make. Any opinions or experience with this? __________________ "The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made." - Groucho Marx Songbuktu!

October 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
J-man Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Wales/Scarborough Age: 19 Posts: 6,100 9 Photos	I agree with Skully, Tapes are one of the worst ways to store recordings IMO. __________________ Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. - Unknown When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Hunter S Thompson

October 5th, 2005, 02:48 PM	#4 (permalink)
Poppatwang Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 1,854 13 Photos	Been there... won't do that. Back in my caveman days of open reel 4 track, I'd master to cassette out of necessity. Sonically, it's a turd format & I've had a lot of tapes go bad with drop-outs (many brands). __________________ The Dieselfitters http://www.dieselfitters.com Roy Hubbs http://www.royhubbs.com

October 5th, 2005, 03:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Berlin, Maryland, USA Age: 49 Posts: 8,391	If you really want to avoid mastering to digital, you might try mastering to the audio input on a HIFI VHS deck. Much higher quality than cassette. I master to my hard drive, and burn to a high-quality CDr, myself... Cheers, Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

October 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Oster Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Melonville, Ontario Age: 38 Posts: 2,491	Why I'm Interested... Tape, as I understand it, may deteriorate over time but can actually be restored - if need be - by baking (this reattaches the ferrite to the mylar backing). This and other repair techniques like splicing would be unthinkable with a digital medium. When those 1s and 0s are corrupted: goodbye music. That's what I like about tape. The music is there, no matter what, in real time. Also, especially with 1/4" reel to reel, that natural tape compression is a thing of beauty to my ears (even a little hiss, too!). I know cassette is a whole different ballgame but FWIW I seem to recall enjoying the sound of mixed tapes a whole lot more than all-digital stuff. I know it's a kooky idea but I have to admit, I'm curious enough to give it a try. I just now bought five 60 min Maxells from the dollar store for under $10.00. If it works, it'll be a cost effective little shortcut for me. Of course saying that, I can vividly recall that sinking feeling of knowing that a prized cassette was being mulched yet again by my player! __________________ "The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made." - Groucho Marx Songbuktu!

October 5th, 2005, 02:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
Skully Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Glamorous NoHo Posts: 3,803	IMHO, If you're thinking tape, you're barking up the wrong tree. Why not just store the master digitally with a back-up or two? A cassette master would be very noisy and nothing you'd want to use to create copies from.

October 5th, 2005, 05:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tim Armstrong Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Berlin, Maryland, USA Age: 49 Posts: 8,391	Cassette tape just isn't very high quality. The physical width of the tracks and the tape speed are both working against you. And cassettes can and do deteriorate! If you REALLY want a long-term storage solution, get a disc lathe and cut your masters to vinyl! Digital doesn't HAVE to sound bad or sterile. It helps to use high quality A/D and D/A converters. If you're recording digitally, you're already dealing with the devil, so why worry about the master? Cheers, Tim __________________ http://www.moodswingers.org

October 6th, 2005, 03:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
maestrovert Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: West Branch Mi. Posts: 5,996	tape on metal reels could be "baked" the cassette "shell" would never survive it without warping so badly as to be unplayable and even if by some miracle the cassette did survive, you might get one pass, so your transfer had better be good.....remember you'd lose a generation in the transfer process, and would probably end up going to digital in any case.... __________________ Sing the Song Bro' Play on Drummer www.godonthe.net

October 6th, 2005, 08:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
Poppatwang Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 1,854 13 Photos	Baking... won't put back the oxide that sloughed off all over the heads & rollers & as was said, you can't bake a cassette. Of all the options available you seem determined to use the worst one. Inferior sound & non-archive quality storage medium all in one obsolete package. __________________ The Dieselfitters http://www.dieselfitters.com Roy Hubbs http://www.royhubbs.com

October 6th, 2005, 10:39 AM	#13 (permalink)
Oster Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Melonville, Ontario Age: 38 Posts: 2,491	Baked Cassette Casserole My most important archives are on 1/4" reel. My CDs are transferred from these. I'm in no way an analog snob but I do find that most of my favorite sounding records were generally cut pre-1980 (oddly enough, many homespun digital records that I've heard of late sound far better to me than most high-end professional new releases). I actually really like Digital for many reasons: Its convenience and versatility are undeniable. I just find that a really nice 'icing on the cake' effect is tape compression. I like it so much that it's simply easier to use tape than to seek out a digital emulation of the effect. Also, the added bonus of an analog master, in addition to a digital (CD) one is compelling. I don't own my own reel to reel machine so I was thinking of a cheaper way to do it. The reason I brought up the baking process was because I really am a fan of 'repairable' things. I like stereo equipment that you can dismantle with a screwdriver to service and other things that cannot be lost with the flick of a switch or an accidental 'undo/redo' command. I don't seriously think cassettes are good candidates for the baking restoration process although good cassettes can be taken apart and perhaps the two little reels could be conceivably given the treatment in that way. Who knows? What I'm going to attempt is a CD transfer from a cassette 2-track 'master' to see if the tape compression is pleasing and enhancing or not. I would still have my digital masters on hand as archives. I know cassettes can sound really awful but I have a few that I still listen to that sound pretty good. There's a specific effect that I like/that I'm looking for. On a somewhat related note: You have to admit, making a mixed tape was way more engrossing than making a mixed CD or iPod shuffle could ever be. __________________ "The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made." - Groucho Marx Songbuktu!