Lyrics vs. Music...who gets credit?

[teledude66]

our singer intoduced a song at our last gig, by saying our drummer wrote it, and he did write the lyrics, but i wrote the music and brought it to the band for lyric help. now i know it sounds trivial, but at practice last night he was telling about how he told his friend about writing that song, and i said "well i wrote the music' to which he replies "well you can only copyright the words and melody. I don't want to get into all the what you can copyright and what you can't, but i made it clear to him that i would get half of whatever was made off it, if it were ever to be anything done with it. so to the songwriters out there i ask if you just provide the music on a collaboration are you a secondary party, an afterthought if you will? i think not.

it just sticks in my crawl and i like letting off in here ...thanks

[Jakedog]

Well, to my way of thinking, you should get half, that's only fair. And yes, you CAN copyright music. Modern classical compositions and other forms of instrumental music have no words, but they are copyrighted. Not sure how this works, just an observation.

Example: When the movie "Ghostbusters" was made, the producers wanted Huey Lewis to do the theme song, he declined, so they set about trying to find another artist who could write a theme song, "Somthing like 'I Wanna New Drug'" Well Ray Parker Jr. did it, all too well. He completely ripped off the bassline and the general feel of the whole song, got sued, and lost. So music is a copyright issue, I'm just not sure about how to handle it.

I would give you this small tidbit of advice though, do with it what you will:

If it were me, and I were going to co-write with anyone, I would lay out before hand how copyrights would be shared, monies split, etc., in writing. BEFORE any actual writing of songs took place. This will save you tons of trouble down the road, and anybody not willing to do this, doesn't need to work with you. Potential problems like this are the reason I don't co-write. It me alone, all the time.


Jake

[skiraly017]

...you can persuade him to sign away his rights to the lyrics in exchange for some shiny objects.

Seriously though, if you look at writing credits you'll see "words and music by joe smith" or "lyrics by joe smith and music by john doe". Any real issues or questions, consult an attorney.

A drummer, tired from being ridiculed by his peers, decides to learn how to play some "real" musical instruments. He goes to a music store, walks in, approaches the store clerk, and says "I'll take that red trumpet over there and that accordian." The store clerk looks at him a bit funny, and replies "OK, you can have the fire extinguisher but the radiator's got to stay".

[teledude66]

i dont mind co writing, because i usually get stuck after the first verse and if someone can help that's fine, this and one other time with the drummer, has been the only times, and the other co writer usually says "we wrote this" the drummer takes himself way too seriously...but then again he is a drummer...


and the shiny objects thing was too funny

[popthree]

If you collaborate with someone on a song...like in the case you mentioned.....you bring the musical idea...they bring the words/and a melodic idea

(influenced by your musical idea...which they would never have thought of without YOUR contribution)

it should be a 50/50 deal. if they don't agree, you shouldn't ever share any musical idea with them again.

My role in song writing is often the role your drummer took (lyricist/melodist) I think he's wrong for taking all the credit.

[Poppatwang]

When you say you wrote the music, do you mean the
melody? If the drummer had lyrics & melody intact
prior to your involvement, then it's his alone.

If the melody was written by you or derived from your
musical idea, then you've got a cowrite.

[maxbruch]

I used to write songs with the drummer in my band back in the day. We wrote together and separate. Whenever he wrote a song by himself he would say he wrote it. When I wrote one by myself he would tell people "we" wrote it. Made me so mad. He always tried to take some kind of credit for anything anybody in the band wrote. Haven't seen him for 20 years. Some folks are just insecure little egomaniacs.

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by Poppatwang

When you say you wrote the music, do you mean the
melody? If the drummer had lyrics & melody intact
prior to your involvement, then it's his alone.

If the melody was written by you or derived from your
musical idea, then you've got a cowrite.

the way it went down was i had the song and maybe woulda come up with something but i wanted the band to hear it, he said "oh i think i have something that would go well with that " then he brought out his "poem" and with a lil work it fit really well ...so i'm voting co write...lol

[genelovesjez]

Originally Posted by Poppatwang

When you say you wrote the music, do you mean the
melody? If the drummer had lyrics & melody intact
prior to your involvement, then it's his alone.

That seems pretty unlikely, but I guess it's possible. So this would mean that teledude66 just happened to arrange a song he had never heard in advance? I would think that would be a tough argument to make in court.

Different bands do things different ways, and the agreement can have a large bearing on how the crediting goes (just ask the poor schmo who co-wrote for Sarah McLachlan but got paid by the hour).

Slightly off topic, but this discussion reminds me of a story about Gene Roddenberry, the Star Trek creator. As I recall the story, he had a difficult time finding a composer to write the theme for Star Trek because most of the money is in residuals, and no one thought the show was going to succeed. When it did, he acted on a clause in the contract that allowed him to add lyrics to the song, effectively cutting the composer's income in half. The lyrics are never heard, but because they exist, Roddenberry was considered the co-writer of the song and got paid half the money every time the song was played. Nice guy!

[Tim Armstrong]

Teledude, you're the composer, and the other guy is the lyricist (or, as Sammy Cahn called it, lyrist). Fifty-fifty split.

I was in a band several years ago where we did various kinds of colaborative songwriting, and I remember one song that started out with a set of chord changes from me, some stream-of-conciousness lyrics from our drummer, and a wonderful editing job by our guitarist. We all felt that each of us contributed the same, so we split the credit three ways equally. We would've split the money, too, except....

Cheers, Tim

[Poppatwang]

Yer right, he did state the timeline. I have had the
experience of a guy rearranging a song I wrote & trying
to claim credit for writing. Taking a completed song &
setting it to a reggae beat is not writing. Maybe it had
something to do with what he was smoking.

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by Poppatwang

Yer right, he did state the timeline. I have had the
experience of a guy rearranging a song I wrote & trying
to claim credit for writing. Taking a completed song &
setting it to a reggae beat is not writing. Maybe it had
something to do with what he was smoking.

our singer who is my best friend, will change lyrics if he didn't write it just so he can feel like he has input, thats anohter thing that bugs me, i wrote one song to completion and everybody dug it, he gets to this one part and will change it to say what he wants

[Wahwax]

Anyone who shared in the song creation process should share in the credit. I would think that the person who wrote the bulk of the lyrics would be listed first on the copyright.

Next time they could introduce the song a one that "WE" wrote if it really bothers you.

[genelovesjez]

Originally Posted by Wahwax

I would think that the person who wrote the bulk of the lyrics would be listed first on the copyright.

Paul McCartney may disagree with me, but I don't think the order listed on the credits signifies anything.

[jonzer]

Where are you guys finding all these song writing drummers?

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by jonzer

Where are you guys finding all these song writing drummers?

Yeah, where? All mine does is drool and pick up greasy girls with three teeth.

Jake

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by genelovesjez

Paul McCartney may disagree with me, but I don't think the order listed on the credits signifies anything.

yeah that doesn't bother me, that would just a whizzing contest, it really doesn't bother me if it never gets announced as one we wrote (one of those dreaded band cliche's) but if it does get announced that way, i like a lil credit also ...

[geddins]

Originally Posted by teledude66

yeah that doesn't bother me, that would just a whizzing contest, it really doesn't bother me if it never gets announced as one we wrote (one of those dreaded band cliche's) but if it does get announced that way, i like a lil credit also ...

One of my pet peeves is the overusage today of the words "I" , "my" "me" "mine".....It's a very unusual situation where the success of any project is attributable to a single person, yet so many times people want to say "I made this happen", when in reality there was a group effort. It's a constant source of contention between myself and one of my business partners. It makes you sound small and selfish IMO. Plus, when I hear someone else say "we" instead of "I" I always have a more positive view of that person's product or service.

Rant off :P

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by geddins

One of my pet peeves is the overusage today of the words "I" , "my" "me" "mine".....It's a very unusual situation where the success of any project is attributable to a single person, yet so many times people want to say "I made this happen", when in reality there was a group effort. It's a constant source of contention between myself and one of my business partners. It makes you sound small and selfish IMO. Plus, when I hear someone else say "we" instead of "I" I always have a more positive view of that person's product or service.

Rant off :P

could you explain this a lil more? i don't know if you're rant is about me wanting to be included, or you're rant is about how they didn't include me...to clarify my point earlier, i stated that it was a collaborative deal, but i was left out when it came to more or less explaining the background in a live setting...if it's a statement like "here's one we wrote" and i wrote it alone, i'm cool with that, but when a person is singled out as the sole writer when one or two others helped then that i feel is wrong ...we may be saying the same thing i just wanted to make sure ...

[geddins]

Originally Posted by teledude66

LOL.....now I know why my wife always tells me "you don't say what you mean very well".. :)

My point was when discussing that particular song it should be "we" wrote this. I get peeved that so many people want to make others think they "do it all".....sorry I wasn't very clear.



could you explain this a lil more? i don't know if you're rant is about me wanting to be included, or you're rant is about how they didn't include me...to clarify my point earlier, i stated that it was a collaborative deal, but i was left out when it came to more or less explaining the background in a live setting...if it's a statement like "here's one we wrote" and i wrote it alone, i'm cool with that, but when a person is singled out as the sole writer when one or two others helped then that i feel is wrong ...we may be saying the same thing i just wanted to make sure ...

[teledude66]

Originally Posted by geddins

cool deal ...