Sound guys and country music-it aint about the snare!

GopherTele · July 25th, 2005, 09:18 AM

Went to see Josh Turner last night, who was quite good, but I again had to experience a sound man who seems like he has never heard a country record in his life. Note to sound guys: country is not about the snare drum! It should not sound like an M-80 exploding.

Country is about the vocals. Get them up there front and center. Next I want to hear some bass and put the steel and guitar prominent so they are clearly heard. The last thing you should worry about is the snare, the kick and the rest of the drums. When it is too loud, it cancels out the guitar and steel due to the similar frequencies they inhabit in the sonic spectrum.

Why does this happen so often? Does it happen in other parts of the country where the sound guys may actually listen to and enjoy country music?

The guy last night thought he was mixing for Foghat or something. It was maddening. When my fiancee even said something (before I did) I knew it would be a long night of being pounded by that snare.

Andy R · July 25th, 2005, 09:53 AM

You're right --it's not about the snare. It'a about the KICK!! Chest pounding, earth shaking....no, wait...

CountryShawn · July 25th, 2005, 10:34 AM

This seems to be common now.

My theory is that currently, country music particularly what is on the maintstream radio, has evolved in many respects to "rock" music.
This shift of scope of the country music format to "rock" has those in the business catering to what they believe are their key markets and demographics.
This often means all of the stereotypical things that come with rock - including loud concerts mixed like rock concerts.

So, the powers that be believe that the major audience right now prefer this format of music, and everything else that goes along with it.

Truth is, they're right. Case in point:

An aquaintance of mine recently attended a Brooks & Dunn show. She is a rock to "country" convert. I was at the same show. My wife and I left - it was FAR FAR too loud, mixed and produced like an AC/DC show. Couldn't hear anything musical.

Spoke with this aquaintance of mine the day after. She loved the show, thought it was a great party, and could was stoked because she could feel the bass in her gut and the music because was heart pumping loud.
She loved the stage antics, pyro - the whole thing.

It's really sad to see a real talent like Josh Turner get put into the "factory" this way - because it won't work for him.

I very seldom go to large-venue live shows (other than my own gigs!!) because it is simply not an enjoyable experience.

There are often great shows at smaller theatres however.....the exception to the rule as of late.

Cheers,

Shawn

Jakedog · July 25th, 2005, 10:34 AM

It's the same here. It doesn't matter what kind of music it is, sound men in my neck of the woods seem to think that kick and snare need to be blazingly loud, no matter what the effect is on the rest of the mix.

It sucks.

In addition, you can NEVER hear vocals out front at a local show. Never. You can make out a melody, but hearing distinct lyrics just doesn't happen. As a songwriter, it seriously pisses me off.

Jake

David Barnett · July 25th, 2005, 11:40 AM

Except for the largest venues, the sound guy has less control than you guys seem to think. If the drummer is a heavy hitter, that snare is gonna "be there" whether the sound guy is intentionally pushing it or not. The dynamics between the musicians on stage have a large effect on the live mix; if the drummer is loud, the amps are loud, and the singers aren't projecting into their microphones, you're gonna end up with a "rock" mix with buried vocals no matter what the sound guy tries to do. If the room acoustics are unfavorable, then the sound guy is also fighting with stage volume and muddy backwash from the monitors, making it even more difficult to get the vocals to cut through clearly without resorting to volume-volume-volume.

Also, for a national act, the sound guy was probably working for the band and following their instructions, so like it or not the mix is probably what the band or their management intended.

Mike Dickerson · July 25th, 2005, 11:45 AM

I own a small production company and we do a few country label acts every year (Josh Turner last year). Sound is a very subjective thing since no two people hear alike, but it has become amazing the number of bad sound guys working on the road these days. The worse the ability to mix the worse their attitude also. One of the best I have heard in a long time was Ricchochet's sound guy (David) a couple of weeks ago. Solid, tight mix and a great attitude. Seems like a lot of the guys hide their lack of ability with complaining and whining about everything from equipment provided to the deli trays back stage.

David Barnett · July 25th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakedog

In addition, you can NEVER hear vocals out front at a local show. Never. You can make out a melody, but hearing distinct lyrics just doesn't happen. As a songwriter, it seriously pisses me off.

Follow the money. At a local show, you're probably in a bar, in a room that wasn't really designed with live music in mind where no money has been spent on improving the acoustics. Furthermore, the money just isn't there to bring in a sound system of sufficient qualty. Bar owners and local promoters are too cheap to invest in good production. And if they did spend the money, ticket prices would have to be higher for anyone to make a profit.

RJB · July 25th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Just my $.02 from a few experiences.
Martina McBride 2 yrs ago. Really had a great mix, this was a fixed stage "theater" venue. Saw her last year w/Alan Jackson, BIG hockey rink. He sounded good, bass a little high, she just came apart. Just not enough headroom for her vocals. This year Brad P. on the Mud n Suds tour. Another great mix, even in the cheap seats where I was. This was a newer basketball arena, which was always intended to have live shows as well.

I think the style of the performer has some play into it. Some "cross over" artists may also tailor the mix for different locations. I'm a bit surprised that Josh T. would be in this catagory, but I also seem to remember George Straight complaining about this last decade.

I think some venues will never sound good, the two good mixes above were at venues intended for music shows.

petebradt · July 25th, 2005, 12:02 PM

When we play bar gigs, we mix for the dance floor. If you want to hear us best, get up and dance. If we mix for the back of the bar, no one up front will hear anything.

Paul in Colorado · July 25th, 2005, 10:38 PM

It's all been downhill since they allowed electric guitars and drums on the Opry!

tdowns · July 25th, 2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GopherTele

Went to see Josh Turner last night, who was quite good, but I again had to experience a sound man who seems like he has never heard a country record in his life. Note to sound guys: country is not about the snare drum! It should not sound like an M-80 exploding.

Country is about the vocals. Get them up there front and center. Next I want to hear some bass and put the steel and guitar prominent so they are clearly heard. The last thing you should worry about is the snare, the kick and the rest of the drums. When it is too loud, it cancels out the guitar and steel due to the similar frequencies they inhabit in the sonic spectrum.

Why does this happen so often? Does it happen in other parts of the country where the sound guys may actually listen to and enjoy country music?

The guy last night thought he was mixing for Foghat or something. It was maddening. When my fiancee even said something (before I did) I knew it would be a long night of being pounded by that snare.

Boy you hit my most sore spot. You have described it to a tee.

I have been hanging out with Gene Watson's band when they come to Texas. One night while listening to the opening act, I asked the drummer and road manager if there were any decent country sound engineers left in the world. It was just as you described. They asked me to mix for them that night. I've had decades of experience mixing, and I DON'T PUT THE KICK DRUM IN CHANNEL ONE. Anyway, I achieved a COUNTRY mix that night and had numerous compliments. It is very easy.

Vocals dominate the highest level
Lead instruments take the 2nd level
Drums, bass and rhythm take the 3rd level.

Just like Harold Bradley intended it to be.

It's more complicated than what I described, but that is the basics.

BTW: I found this via the steel guitar forum. I rarely visit the Bad Dog Cafe.

David Barnett · July 25th, 2005, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdowns

I DON'T PUT THE KICK DRUM IN CHANNEL ONE.

Oh please. Channel assignment is largely arbitrary, but putting the kick drum in channel 1 isn't a sign of preference. On a mixing board of any decent size, I want the vocals at the high channel numbers because they'll be closer to where I'm standing. Drums and bass go down in the low channels because they're "set and forget".

My personal channel assignment convention is this -- drums first, then other percussion if any (for bands with latin percussion), then bass, then guitars, then acoustic guitar if needed, then keys, then horns if needed, and finally, vocals last. That puts the vocals near the master section, and near the VCAs if it's a VCA console.

Getting used to this convention will also mean that if you have to mix a band in the middle of a big outdoor festival, you'll be comfortable with the "festival style" setup, where all bands are sharing channels all day (and the headliners have a separate console).

tdowns · July 26th, 2005, 12:15 AM

David,
Of course it is arbitrary. I'm just trying to make a point.

Your point is very well taken. I was just speaking of the emphasis placed on the drums.

Montana_Dawg · July 26th, 2005, 02:05 AM

One of the best shows I ever saw was Alison Krauss and Union Station, whther it be live, TV, or on dvd.

What impresseed me was that they use old style monitor speakers, and they mic everything, instead of going through an amp. Of course, they play bluegrass, but I have even seen bluegrass bands that use amps and earpieces.

AK & US always impresses me with their sound.

I also find that the older I get, the less tolerable I am to loud music. I prefer symphonies, acoustic sets, an dsmaller blues and jazz sets these days than large venue acts.

Bill Hullett · July 26th, 2005, 02:23 AM

Do you guys remember the cartoon strip "The Far Side"

About 20 years ago he had a cartoon of two farmers way out in their respective feilds and they happened on one another they are both leaning on the fence taking a break and the one farmer says to the other

"hey, how'd like the snare sound on the new Conway Twitty record"!

I've seen that cartoon pinned up in a dozen studios here in Nashville! funny stuff

Bill Hullett

David Barnett · July 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM

And the Far Side with the caption "Raymond's Last Day As The Band's Sound Engineer" is taped up in almost every live sound booth...

Bob Rogers · July 26th, 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Barnett

And the Far Side with the caption "Raymond's Last Day As The Band's Sound Engineer" is taped up in almost every live sound booth...

Turn up the "Suck" knob!

Bob Rogers · July 26th, 2005, 09:26 AM

I couldn't find it with a search, but a long while ago there was a great thread on this topic. I think someone started off on a "what's wrong with modern country" rant and one of the regulars (can't remember who) chimed in with a great description of the modern (post-Garth) country formula. The most important part of the formula was that the drumming was identical to '70s rock drumming (e.g., Fleetwood Mac). I believe the thread had this thought experiment: "Take any Stevie Nicks tune from the '70s and think about what you would have to do to turn it into a Shania Twain tune." (First, you leave the drums alone.)

The bottom line is that the concert was probably mixed according to the standard modern country formula.

[By the way, I've run that basic idea of the formula by a number of musicians my age and at least half have reacted the same way -Dang, if I had thought of that, I'd be as rich as Garth.]

Mike Dickerson · July 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM

In my earlier post I may have sounded like I think all sound problems are due to bad engineers. That is not the case at all. While I still stand by my statement that there are a lot of bad touring engineers, I also know the average audience and even most musicians dont realize the obstacles of making a band sound good. Bad rooms, bad amps, loud amps, bad drums, loud drums, management requirements, and on and on. Oh and by the way a label country act we provided sound for a couple weeks ago had an engineer who claimed to have engineered for KISS.... Hmm, What does that tell ya that band is going to be mixed like?

David Barnett · July 26th, 2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Dickerson

Oh and by the way a label country act we provided sound for a couple weeks ago had an engineer who claimed to have engineered for KISS.... Hmm, What does that tell ya that band is going to be mixed like?

Red lights everywhere...

tdowns · July 27th, 2005, 12:46 AM

Here is an example:

http://www.tdpri.com/viewtopic.php?t=37868

Can you hear the vocals and lead instruments?

The snare is not lost.

cowboytwang · July 27th, 2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdowns

[*]Vocals dominate the highest level[*]Lead instruments take the 2nd level[*]Drums, bass and rhythm take the 3rd level.

I tell everyone that if they are mixing a band they should think of it as a three tier step stool.

The bottom rung is for the rhythm section- Bass, drums, and any melody instrument while playing rhythm parts(guitar piano mandolin banjo steel).

The middle rung is for any melody instrument doing fills, harmony, counter melodies.

The top rung is for the melody- that means the lead vocal or lead instrument, whoever has the melody at the time.

Now there are always exceptions to every rule. One example would be that if your singing in the style of Buck & Don then the harmony vocal should be even with the melody. Or if you doing worked out twin parts then they should be even. However I have NEVER found any reason or exception for the rhythm section to move off the bottom step.
The rhythm section is supposed to be the foundation of the band, it's to keep time for melody instruments. Now in dance band music it does serve to help keep time for the dancers also, but still it's fundamental purpose is just to help keep the melody in time.

To me putting any rhythm instrument louder then the melody is like putting a cement floor and carpeting on the roof of your house. The foundation has to be on the bottom!

July 25th, 2005, 09:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
GopherTele Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 948	Sound guys and country music-it aint about the snare! Went to see Josh Turner last night, who was quite good, but I again had to experience a sound man who seems like he has never heard a country record in his life. Note to sound guys: country is not about the snare drum! It should not sound like an M-80 exploding. Country is about the vocals. Get them up there front and center. Next I want to hear some bass and put the steel and guitar prominent so they are clearly heard. The last thing you should worry about is the snare, the kick and the rest of the drums. When it is too loud, it cancels out the guitar and steel due to the similar frequencies they inhabit in the sonic spectrum. Why does this happen so often? Does it happen in other parts of the country where the sound guys may actually listen to and enjoy country music? The guy last night thought he was mixing for Foghat or something. It was maddening. When my fiancee even said something (before I did) I knew it would be a long night of being pounded by that snare.

July 25th, 2005, 10:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
CountryShawn Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Age: 36 Posts: 621	This seems to be common now. My theory is that currently, country music particularly what is on the maintstream radio, has evolved in many respects to "rock" music. This shift of scope of the country music format to "rock" has those in the business catering to what they believe are their key markets and demographics. This often means all of the stereotypical things that come with rock - including loud concerts mixed like rock concerts. So, the powers that be believe that the major audience right now prefer this format of music, and everything else that goes along with it. Truth is, they're right. Case in point: An aquaintance of mine recently attended a Brooks & Dunn show. She is a rock to "country" convert. I was at the same show. My wife and I left - it was FAR FAR too loud, mixed and produced like an AC/DC show. Couldn't hear anything musical. Spoke with this aquaintance of mine the day after. She loved the show, thought it was a great party, and could was stoked because she could feel the bass in her gut and the music because was heart pumping loud. She loved the stage antics, pyro - the whole thing. It's really sad to see a real talent like Josh Turner get put into the "factory" this way - because it won't work for him. I very seldom go to large-venue live shows (other than my own gigs!!) because it is simply not an enjoyable experience. There are often great shows at smaller theatres however.....the exception to the rule as of late. Cheers, Shawn __________________ --------

July 25th, 2005, 10:34 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jakedog Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Cleveland,OH But my heart's still in TE Posts: 2,982	It's the same here. It doesn't matter what kind of music it is, sound men in my neck of the woods seem to think that kick and snare need to be blazingly loud, no matter what the effect is on the rest of the mix. It sucks. In addition, you can NEVER hear vocals out front at a local show. Never. You can make out a melody, but hearing distinct lyrics just doesn't happen. As a songwriter, it seriously pisses me off. Jake __________________ "Them that don't know him won't like him, and them that do sometimes won't know how to take him..."

July 26th, 2005, 12:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
tdowns Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Wylie, TX US Posts: 2,583	David, Of course it is arbitrary. I'm just trying to make a point. Your point is very well taken. I was just speaking of the emphasis placed on the drums. __________________ Best regards, Terry Downs http://terrydownsmusic.com Equine quadrupeds may be coaxed to the reference of specific gravity but may not be compelled to imbibe thereof.

July 26th, 2005, 02:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
Montana_Dawg Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oregon, but from Montana Posts: 507	One of the best shows I ever saw was Alison Krauss and Union Station, whther it be live, TV, or on dvd. What impresseed me was that they use old style monitor speakers, and they mic everything, instead of going through an amp. Of course, they play bluegrass, but I have even seen bluegrass bands that use amps and earpieces. AK & US always impresses me with their sound. I also find that the older I get, the less tolerable I am to loud music. I prefer symphonies, acoustic sets, an dsmaller blues and jazz sets these days than large venue acts. __________________ I would rather be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none, than be a one trick-pony out of a job.

July 25th, 2005, 09:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Andy R Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nashville Posts: 646 4 Photos	You're right --it's not about the snare. It'a about the KICK!! Chest pounding, earth shaking....no, wait...

July 25th, 2005, 11:40 AM	#5 (permalink)
David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: LIttle Rock, AR Age: 52 Posts: 5,338	Except for the largest venues, the sound guy has less control than you guys seem to think. If the drummer is a heavy hitter, that snare is gonna "be there" whether the sound guy is intentionally pushing it or not. The dynamics between the musicians on stage have a large effect on the live mix; if the drummer is loud, the amps are loud, and the singers aren't projecting into their microphones, you're gonna end up with a "rock" mix with buried vocals no matter what the sound guy tries to do. If the room acoustics are unfavorable, then the sound guy is also fighting with stage volume and muddy backwash from the monitors, making it even more difficult to get the vocals to cut through clearly without resorting to volume-volume-volume. Also, for a national act, the sound guy was probably working for the band and following their instructions, so like it or not the mix is probably what the band or their management intended.

July 25th, 2005, 11:45 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mike Dickerson Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Paragould Arkansas Age: 47 Posts: 244	I own a small production company and we do a few country label acts every year (Josh Turner last year). Sound is a very subjective thing since no two people hear alike, but it has become amazing the number of bad sound guys working on the road these days. The worse the ability to mix the worse their attitude also. One of the best I have heard in a long time was Ricchochet's sound guy (David) a couple of weeks ago. Solid, tight mix and a great attitude. Seems like a lot of the guys hide their lack of ability with complaining and whining about everything from equipment provided to the deli trays back stage.

July 25th, 2005, 11:53 AM	#8 (permalink)
RJB TDPRI Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ct Posts: 57	Just my $.02 from a few experiences. Martina McBride 2 yrs ago. Really had a great mix, this was a fixed stage "theater" venue. Saw her last year w/Alan Jackson, BIG hockey rink. He sounded good, bass a little high, she just came apart. Just not enough headroom for her vocals. This year Brad P. on the Mud n Suds tour. Another great mix, even in the cheap seats where I was. This was a newer basketball arena, which was always intended to have live shows as well. I think the style of the performer has some play into it. Some "cross over" artists may also tailor the mix for different locations. I'm a bit surprised that Josh T. would be in this catagory, but I also seem to remember George Straight complaining about this last decade. I think some venues will never sound good, the two good mixes above were at venues intended for music shows.

July 25th, 2005, 12:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
petebradt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Niner Country Posts: 3,392 12 Photos	When we play bar gigs, we mix for the dance floor. If you want to hear us best, get up and dance. If we mix for the back of the bar, no one up front will hear anything.

July 25th, 2005, 10:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
Paul in Colorado Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fort Collins, CO Age: 55 Posts: 4,222 3 Photos	It's all been downhill since they allowed electric guitars and drums on the Opry!

July 26th, 2005, 02:23 AM	#15 (permalink)
Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tn. Posts: 1,192	well actually..... Do you guys remember the cartoon strip "The Far Side" About 20 years ago he had a cartoon of two farmers way out in their respective feilds and they happened on one another they are both leaning on the fence taking a break and the one farmer says to the other "hey, how'd like the snare sound on the new Conway Twitty record"! I've seen that cartoon pinned up in a dozen studios here in Nashville! funny stuff Bill Hullett

July 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: LIttle Rock, AR Age: 52 Posts: 5,338	And the Far Side with the caption "Raymond's Last Day As The Band's Sound Engineer" is taped up in almost every live sound booth...

July 26th, 2005, 09:26 AM	#18 (permalink)
Bob Rogers Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Blacksburg, VA Posts: 1,710	I couldn't find it with a search, but a long while ago there was a great thread on this topic. I think someone started off on a "what's wrong with modern country" rant and one of the regulars (can't remember who) chimed in with a great description of the modern (post-Garth) country formula. The most important part of the formula was that the drumming was identical to '70s rock drumming (e.g., Fleetwood Mac). I believe the thread had this thought experiment: "Take any Stevie Nicks tune from the '70s and think about what you would have to do to turn it into a Shania Twain tune." (First, you leave the drums alone.) The bottom line is that the concert was probably mixed according to the standard modern country formula. [By the way, I've run that basic idea of the formula by a number of musicians my age and at least half have reacted the same way -Dang, if I had thought of that, I'd be as rich as Garth.]

July 26th, 2005, 12:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mike Dickerson Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Paragould Arkansas Age: 47 Posts: 244	In my earlier post I may have sounded like I think all sound problems are due to bad engineers. That is not the case at all. While I still stand by my statement that there are a lot of bad touring engineers, I also know the average audience and even most musicians dont realize the obstacles of making a band sound good. Bad rooms, bad amps, loud amps, bad drums, loud drums, management requirements, and on and on. Oh and by the way a label country act we provided sound for a couple weeks ago had an engineer who claimed to have engineered for KISS.... Hmm, What does that tell ya that band is going to be mixed like?

July 27th, 2005, 12:46 AM	#21 (permalink)
tdowns Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Wylie, TX US Posts: 2,583	Here is an example: http://www.tdpri.com/viewtopic.php?t=37868 Can you hear the vocals and lead instruments? The snare is not lost. __________________ Best regards, Terry Downs http://terrydownsmusic.com Equine quadrupeds may be coaxed to the reference of specific gravity but may not be compelled to imbibe thereof.