Another cougar in town.

[Boubou]

Originally Posted by Justinvs

Part of the problem, instead of reintroducing the smaller wolves that had originally inhabited the Lower 48, we paid big money for the larger, more agressive Canadian grays.

that's it, blame it on the Canadians
Anyways, I think our views differ on the subject. I can see the impact it has had on the hunters and farmers and no one likes to see their way of life changed even just a little. But on the other hand I do not believe in the supremacy of humans and their right to rule everything on this earth, even if they can.
We can still share this planet with other species, we just have. To find the balance
Yeah of course introducing a different "subspecies" ie.: a larger wolf will have a greater impact, and not necessarily smart. Did not know you guys still had native wolves there.
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[E5RSY]

Originally Posted by Justinvs

Thing is, here in western Montana we had a very healthy elk and deer population because there was already an alpha predator in the mix, namely us. The only place overpopulation was a real problem was Yellowstone Park, where hunting isn't allowed. That was ostensibly the reason FW&P (plus about a dozen environmental/wildlife organizations) rammed the wolf issue down our throats. For more than a decade those of us opposed to the reintroduction went to meetings that were little more than dog and pony shows, no interest whatsoever in hearing what the people who would be most impacted by the wolves on the part of the government.

"Wolves will stay in Yellowstone, because that's where the game is," they contended.

The first pack had left the park less than 6 months after reintroduction. Today, we have hundreds of the sons of bitches (literally) going everywhere from wilderness areas to rural farms and ranches and even the outskirts of some of our larger cities. And there is no method in place to control them beyond a ridiculous 'hunting season' that managed to get rid of very few wolves.

Part of the problem, instead of reintroducing the smaller wolves that had originally inhabited the Lower 48, we paid big money for the larger, more aggressive Canadian grays. And the saddest part, there were isolated packs already here. We'd seen and heard them for years, but of course FW&P never believes any report but there own. You can bet those native wolves are long gone by now.

Yep. It's all feel-good, phoney-baloney BS gone awry.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Ironwolf

The police caught up to and shot him last night. A young 70 pound male, a kitten really. He was feeding out of a garbage can outside Bronco Stadium. A shame he couldn't be relocated.

He wasn't gonna make it, long run, I think.

Some individual animals seem to easily habituate to spend too much time in contact with humans (while another animal of the same species keeps his distance) and they're doomed and I'd just as soon the others of his type thrived, instead.

Deer (and other ungulates) seem to be the pivotal critters in so many cases. Where deer are many or growing in numbers, eventually predators will follow. How ironic that, in areas where hunters are genuinely free to keep the deer numbers in check, we normally don't see wolves or catamounts. Instead we see many many smaller critters (turkeys, mink, grouse, raccoons.)

There are a lot of suburban places in the East of the USA where guns can't be discharged; the deer have taken over and those spending time outdoors are getting tick borne illnesses.

I guess there's no free lunch.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by cowboytwang

Yeah, south of the border they call these guys "El Tigre".

Putting up an enormous barrier on the border will probably put and end to their appearance here.

They're a denser build; not as tall as a Mountain Lion but about the same weight.

Beautiful, though.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Justinvs

Part of the problem, instead of reintroducing the smaller wolves that had originally inhabited the Lower 48, we paid big money for the larger, more agressive Canadian grays. And the saddest part, there were isolated packs already here. We'd seen and heard them for years, but of course FW&P never believes any report but there own. You can bet those native wolves are long gone by now.

Yeah, but the ranchers and others complain just as loud about the reintroductions in New Mexico and North Carolina.

You guys probably got lied to; probably had some people saying wishful things for political purposes. I expect the most aggressive individuals will be culled out for a number of generations and eventually the introduced animals will "get along" or something else will have to be tried.

As for natives, they thrived there once over other sorts of wolves. Hopefully the local environs have not been so degraded that it wouldn't have made good habitat for its original stock but who would we blame if that was true, with respect. No, it isn't gonna be easy and anyone who said it would be is a liar.

[Boubou]

Originally Posted by E5RSY

Yep. It's all feel-good, phoney-baloney BS gone awry.

Everything is feel-good
One man's feel good is another man's phoney-baloney BS and vice versa

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[Justinvs]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Yeah, but the ranchers and others complain just as loud about the reintroductions in New Mexico and North Carolina.

You guys probably got lied to; probably had some people saying wishful things for political purposes. I expect the most aggressive individuals will be culled out for a number of generations and eventually the introduced animals will "get along" or something else will have to be tried.

As for natives, they thrived there once over other sorts of wolves. Hopefully the local environs have not been so degraded that it wouldn't have made good habitat for its original stock but who would we blame if that was true, with respect. No, it isn't gonna be easy and anyone who said it would be is a liar.

Problem is, the deer, elk and moose populations, as well as the smaller predators who used to hunt them, are being decimated and so far none of the measures the Fish and Game have tried work to curb them. And yes, ranchers are losing animals too, and all without compensation. A few years ago we had 5 bulls chased over a cliff and the game biologist verified the tracks as wolf. Did we get anything for the $10K those bulls cost us? Not a penny, but they did give us a permit to shoot any wolves we saw around the herd.

[jumpnblues]

Sightings of mountain lions in Iowa and Missouri are becoming fairly commonplace. They were native to these states 100+ years ago but farming pretty much ended that until maybe 10 years ago.


Tom

[Boubou]

Originally Posted by Justinvs

A few years ago we had 5 bulls chased over a cliff and the game biologist verified the tracks as wolf. Did we get anything for the $10K those bulls cost us? Not a penny, but they did give us a permit to shoot any wolves we saw around the herd.

Sorry about that, but on a more philosophical theme, the world is changing, the model is changing.
I worked for 26 years in research in big pharma, no brainer right, people get sick, you sell them drugs.
Wrong.
Enter underperformers in management, patent expiring, generic drug makers taking over , big pharma always seen as the big bad wolf and much more. Most pharma are cutting back, closing research sites, etc...
I personally lost much more than the $10k when the research center where I worked closed down.
The business is changing and people have to adapt or perish.
Didn't Polaroid close down? Because they did not adapt.
We all hate it when our little bubble is burst by someone else.
It's the nature of the beast, please someone, make someone else unhappy.
I remember watching a documentary where a farmer figured out it was cheaper to feed the coyotes then suffer the loss on his livestock
Way back, one of the owners of the archery shop where I did business told me he was going hunting bear in the off season, basically using a deer farmers permit to shoot bears around the farm.
Maybe offering wolf hunt, charge a fee, make money and lower the wolf population

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[Ironwolf]

The wolf packs in Idaho have exploded in numbers since the reintroduction and have spread over a much larger area than we were assured they would. We got them de-listed last year and set up a regular hunting season in order to, hopefully, thin their numbers somewhat. Of course the groups (mostly from back east) that forced them on us in the first place fought the de-listing tooth and nail. I'm personally of the opinion that if they must be reintroduced here, they should be reintroduced everywhere they once ran. I think Central Park, Long Island, and the Catskills should have a few packs of their own. We would be happy to round them up and ship them; no charge.

[Boubou]

Originally Posted by Ironwolf

I think Central Park, Long Island, and the Catskills should have a few packs of their own. We would be happy to round them up and ship them; no charge.

reminds me of a coworker who was all up in arms because he had a wild rabbit on his property, mad at the SPCA because they would not remove the rabbit.
About 5 minutes after we saw rabbits on our front lawn, the was a bunch of carrots on the lawn and the next day we had to go buy rabbit food
Wild life, love it, hate it

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[Ironwolf]

Wild life doesn't bother me. I have a regular menagerie in my back yard, most of which I encourage and actively feed. When wild life is actually dangerous, however, it has no business in a metropolitan area.

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Yeah, south of the border they call these guys "El Tigre".

Putting up an enormous barrier on the border will probably put and end to their appearance here.

They're a denser build; not as tall as a Mountain Lion but about the same weight.

Beautiful, though.

One topic I know a lot about is the big cats - actually much more than the Telecaster.

Though the variation between different subspecies is large, the jaguar/tigre averagely weighs considerably more than a cougar/puma/mountain lion.

The average weight of a male jaguar is between 120 and 290 pounds with a maximum recorded weight of 347 pounds. The Pantanal subspecies Panthera Onca Paraguensis is averagely the biggest/heaviest.

The male cougar normally weighs between 115 and 160 pounds. The heaviest one on record weighed 276 punds - which is actually a good deal more than the heaviest leopard!

A Google search will give you lots of different answers, but these numbers are the ones I trust the most.

[Justinvs]

Originally Posted by Boubou

Sorry about that, but on a more philosophical theme, the world is changing, the model is changing.
I worked for 26 years in research in big pharma, no brainer right, people get sick, you sell them drugs.
Wrong.
Enter underperformers in management, patent expiring, generic drug makers taking over , big pharma always seen as the big bad wolf and much more. Most pharma are cutting back, closing research sites, etc...
I personally lost much more than the $10k when the research center where I worked closed down.
The business is changing and people have to adapt or perish.
Didn't Polaroid close down? Because they did not adapt.
We all hate it when our little bubble is burst by someone else.
It's the nature of the beast, please someone, make someone else unhappy.
I remember watching a documentary where a farmer figured out it was cheaper to feed the coyotes then suffer the loss on his livestock
Way back, one of the owners of the archery shop where I did business told me he was going hunting bear in the off season, basically using a deer farmers permit to shoot bears around the farm.
Maybe offering wolf hunt, charge a fee, make money and lower the wolf population

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Analogy doesn't hold up. You didn't have the government come in and close your research center. They did stuff wolves down our throats for no other reason than eco-appeasment. And I would love to set up a pay-to-hunt wolf trip. Only problem, shooting one of the lovely little beasts can net you more time in the gray bar hotel than if you shot a person.

[Boubou]

Originally Posted by Justinvs

Analogy doesn't hold up. You didn't have the government come in and close your research center. They did stuff wolves down our throats for no other reason than eco-appeasment. And I would love to set up a pay-to-hunt wolf trip. Only problem, shooting one of the lovely little beasts can net you more time in the gray bar hotel than if you shot a person.

Well the analogy was that whatever the reason, our lives and livelihood are changed by events out of our control. I thought the government gave you a permit to shoot wolves around the herd.
Anyways, I am done here, I like to discuss these things, but emotions run high and things tend to turn nasty. Good luck to you

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[E5RSY]

Originally Posted by Boubou

Well the analogy was that whatever the reason, our lives and livelihood are changed by events out of our control. I thought the government gave you a permit to shoot wolves around the herd.

But, surely you can see that "events out of our control" can be either an act of God, or something inflicted on us by our fellow man. In this case, we have a group of people with no real stake in the reality of the change they espouse dictating things to others 2,000 miles away. And, the fact of the matter is that that dynamic could never be reversed. No one in NYC, for example, would roll over for policy formulated by Westerners to be implemented in their hometown. Not in a million years.

As for the wolf permits, usually the way it works is that they are only for use by the landowners, themselves, and are probably limited to being used on individual animals that can be proven to be problematic. It's not carte blanche, by any means.

[Ironwolf]

Originally Posted by E5RSY

But, surely you can see that "events out of our control" can be either an act of God, or something inflicted on us by our fellow man. In this case, we have a group of people with no real stake in the reality of the change they espouse dictating things to others 2,000 miles away. And, the fact of the matter is that that dynamic could never be reversed. No one in NYC, for example, would roll over for policy formulated by Westerners to be implemented in their hometown. Not in a million years.

As for the wolf permits, usually the way it works is that they are only for use by the landowners, themselves, and are probably limited to being used on individual animals that can be proven to be problematic. It's not carte blanche, by any means.

BINGO!

[jumpnblues]

Originally Posted by Boubou

Doh!
Wolves eat meat, reintroducing them will have an impact on deer and elk population, I mean a prey population without its main predator, was probably out of control.
Up here in the great white north, we have had wolves forever and still have a healthy deer, caribou and elk population.
Wolves are not a big deal.
On the other hand, if someone was trying to introduce, say, rattlesnakes here, maybe I would feel like you guys
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I'll let you in on a little secret...in case you're not already aware, you already have rattlesnakes there.


Tom

[jumpnblues]

Man, those cats are breathtakingly gorgeous. I'd hate to meet up with one on a trail though.


Tom

[63dot]

Originally Posted by Boubou

snip

It's the nature of the beast, please someone, make someone else unhappy.
I remember watching a documentary where a farmer figured out it was cheaper to feed the coyotes then suffer the loss on his livestock
Way back, one of the owners of the archery shop where I did business told me he was going hunting bear in the off season, basically using a deer farmers permit to shoot bears around the farm.
Maybe offering wolf hunt, charge a fee, make money and lower the wolf population

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You should Google what happened to bears in Yellowstone when they were fed by humans. Feeding a wild animal can cause a whole host of issues that are not anticipated.

In the very long term, yes, we got our domestic dog (probably concurrently in Africa and Asia's Gobi Desert...Gobi Desert Kitchen Midden Dog) when wolves were fed by humans and a relationship formed. Both wolf and human benefited. But in these fast times and urban sprawl, things don't end up good for the animals. And as much as I like the cute raccoons in my neck of the woods who make themselves look cute and beg for scraps, I avoid them.

I never touch them or befriend them. There was one exception though and it was a heartbreaker:

I was driving along the coast with my then girlfriend and she screamed out of the blue. She yelled at me and told me to turn back. I didn't see anything but when I turned back, we drove slowly to find a raccoon in a ditch next to the road. She got out and saw it had been hit by a car and appeared injured even though there were no wounds or blood. We went to her house nearby and got a dog crate and came back to the scene. When we tried to slide the raccoon close to the cage, he cooperated and let us gently put him into the crate. We then planned to get him to ASPCA for treatment. When we had him in the crate and closed the door, he stuck his paw out reaching for my girlfriend. She held out her hand and held his little hand for a few moments. He looked into her eye and died right there. I will never forget that moment.