Copyright Q's not answered by FAQs.

[mistermullens]

Hey guys. Got a couple of quick questions I didn't get answered by copyright.gov.

Before I get into my questions, let me say that anyone who has questions regarding copyrights should go to the website first. Most, if not all of your Q's will be answered.

I've recently started writing songs, and I want to officially copyright them, just in case. I plan on submitting them as a "collection" or in music terms, an album so I don't have to pay $35 per song. The website talks about submitting the "best work." Here's my question if I record a solo acoustic album/demo, but later record the album with a full band, do I need to resubmit the copyright registration?

Should I wait to submit copyright registration until I have a "finished" project?

[Bob W.]

If you submit a recording, with the claim that you composed the music, I believe you will get copyright protection of the 'intellectual property' of the song composition, as well as protection of that recording. If the song is recorded again, and even with different arrangement or instrumentation, you are still protected as the composer of the music. In fact, you automatically own the copyright to anything you create, if you are indeed the original creator. Registering a copyright is the best way to protect yourself in court. It helps you prove that you are the originator of a work.

[emu!]

You are basically copyrighting the melody and lyrics. So, no, there is no need to re-copyright the song everytime you record it...unless you change the melody or lyrics.

At least that's my take on it.

[mistermullens]

Ok, so far so good. Extra opinions welcome. I think I'll save my other questions for another thread since they don't really involve copyrighting.

Any other thoughts?

[Boubou]

No experience with copyright but lots with patent. As they said you compose it, you own it by default, registering it helps you prove that. I sign my labbook and have a witness countersigned it, and that's that, that's the date the "invention " was made

[harmonicon]

Save your money - don't bother. If you composed it, you own the copyright, you can go on slappin' copyright notices on it, etc. Are you REALLY afraid that someone's going to rip off one of your songs? If so, here's the cheaper alternative that I was always taught works (never known anyone in a copyright battle over a song before though): send the recordings, lyrics, sheet music, whatever in a REGISTERED letter to yourself. Do not open it. Then, should need be, you have a dated and notarized package you can display in court as evidence of the date you made the work. If you really were ripped off, there is no way the person/people you're in conflict with could ever prove they'd had the ideas first.

[Boubou]

Or you could have a witness sign and date

[bdkphoto]

Originally Posted by harmonicon

Save your money - don't bother. If you composed it, you own the copyright, you can go on slappin' copyright notices on it, etc. Are you REALLY afraid that someone's going to rip off one of your songs? If so, here's the cheaper alternative that I was always taught works (never known anyone in a copyright battle over a song before though): send the recordings, lyrics, sheet music, whatever in a REGISTERED letter to yourself. Do not open it. Then, should need be, you have a dated and notarized package you can display in court as evidence of the date you made the work. If you really were ripped off, there is no way the person/people you're in conflict with could ever prove they'd had the ideas first.

This is an old wives tale that means nothing in court. In order to persue a copyright case in US court your work MUST be registered with the LOC. Registration prior to the infringement also stacks the legal deck in your favor, allowing you to collect legal fees and damages beyond the actual value of the infringement, i.e. you will be able to hire a lawyer, and in many cases registration will actually keep you out of court.

[bdkphoto]

Originally Posted by mistermullens

Hey guys. Got a couple of quick questions I didn't get answered by copyright.gov.

Before I get into my questions, let me say that anyone who has questions regarding copyrights should go to the website first. Most, if not all of your Q's will be answered.

I've recently started writing songs, and I want to officially copyright them, just in case. I plan on submitting them as a "collection" or in music terms, an album so I don't have to pay $35 per song. The website talks about submitting the "best work." Here's my question if I record a solo acoustic album/demo, but later record the album with a full band, do I need to resubmit the copyright registration?

Should I wait to submit copyright registration until I have a "finished" project?

You should be fine with the initial registration. I would not put too much value in the opinions generated here, call the LOC copyright office and ask them directly, they can be very helpful. I would also check with a songwriters association that has legal staff or an actual IP lawyer, there are many Lawyer for the Arts organizations that can provide real info and advice at no cost.

[Boubou]

wikipedia but still:
In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.[
copyright

In 1989, the U.S. enacted the Berne Convention Implementation Act, amending the 1976 Copyright Act to conform to most of the provisions of the Berne Convention. As a result, the use of copyright notices has become optional to claim copyright, because the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic.[23] However, the lack of notice of copyright using these marks may have consequences in terms of reduced damages in an infringement lawsuit — using notices of this form may reduce the likelihood of a defense of "innocent infringement" being successful.[24]

[bdkphoto]

Originally Posted by Boubou

wikipedia but still:
In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.[
copyright

Except in the US where you need to register with the LOC to go to court.

http://asmp.org/tutorials/copyright-overview.html
From ASMP FAQ on registration: ( I serve on the Board of Directors )
What does registration do for you?

You have the full weight of the law on your side if you are infringed.
You can file an infringement suit.
You can more easily secure an attorney to take your infringement case.
If you register your work prior to infringement (or within three months of first publication), you can ask for statutory damages and attorney fees if you win an infringement case.
You can use your registration as leverage to get paid by defaulting clients.
You have added protection against anyone claiming your work is an "orphaned" work.
You are adding value to the services you provide your clients by protecting the investment they have made.

[crackpot]

Originally Posted by Boubou

wikipedia but still:
....[24]

Wikipedia on Poor Man's Copyright:

Poor mans copyright is a method of using registered dating by the postal service, a notary public or other highly trusted source to date intellectual property, thereby helping to establish that the material has been in one's possession since a particular time. The concept is based on the notion that, in the event that such intellectual property were to be misused by a third party, the poor-man's copyright would at least establish a legally recognized date of possession before any proof which a third party may possess.

The PMC was originally used by authors who sent copies of their own work to themselves through the mail without opening the envelopes in the hope that it would grant them legal protection by establishing a date at which the work was created. Use of this method may not hold up in a court as it is simple for individuals to pre-send envelopes which can then be used later by placing the materials inside.

[mistermullens]

Let me nip this should I or shouldn't I register debate in the bud. I'm going to register them whether they are the worst or greatest songs ever written. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[cap217]

Originally Posted by Boubou

No experience with copyright but lots with patent. As they said you compose it, you own it by default, registering it helps you prove that. I sign my labbook and have a witness countersigned it, and that's that, that's the date the "invention " was made

dont know how you can give bad info on this!!!!

The US courts recently went from a first to invent system to a first to file. PERIOD! And before you had a year to file for a patent, if not then you lose your option. Now it gets a little messy in these situations but you must always file for protection. But just bc you file doesnt mean much. If someone infringes then you MUST PROVE that they have done so. Not easy to do and very expensive.

Copyrights and trademarks and patents dont mean much. All they do is deter people from infringment. It is your responsibility to prove that they have done so.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/...all-inventors/

[a.miller]

I have written and composed music and lyrics for a big portion of my life...

In my experience, unless you are publishing the work you should not need to submit to the Library of Congress. However, the minute you publish the work (as an album / cd) you should definitely get the album copyrighted before it is release to the public.

You do "automatically" hold the copyright as the creator, but really -- who will believe you if someone steals your song, makes a million bucks, then you claim it was stolen?

So...unless you fear someone stealing your work before it is a published piece, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

But, when you compose those songs for a band release I would definitely submit them for a formal copyright. This is pretty easy and can be done online for a nominal fee...then you get the official document a few weeks later, noting that you are the copyright holder. Don't make the (horrific) mistake of including your band mates in the copyright. If you wrote it, YOU should have the copyright. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a mess.