BMI and my Acoustic gig.

[Tylercaster]

On the off weekends I've been playing acoustic music at a local restaurant just for tips. There's no cover and their may be 30 or 40 folks at the most. I have friends come and sit in from time to time, yada-yada-yada.

The restaurant owner recieved a letter from BMI saying that if she wanted to continue she must pay about $500 for a live music license. So all music has ceased until further notice. Whats the deal? Do all restaurants/bars do this? Do we have to pay the license? or just go like we've been going? I guess I could understand if there was a $10 cover and 500 people everynight.

Don't blast me, I'm just asking. :)

[lenny]

any commercial establishment that plays licensed music is supposed to pay a fee to bmi and ascap

[Bob Rogers]

Yes. Restaurants, bars, any commercial establishment that plays music for its patrons has to pay the songwriters and publishers of the songs played. Same rules apply for live or canned music, so if he has been playing any music at all, he has to pay. The two big organizations are BMI and ASCAP. He has to pay both unless he wants to limit playlists to one organization. The amount of the fee is determined by a number of factors including the size of his business and the amount of music he plays, so he needs to learn more about this so he can negotiate.

[jhundt]

we used to play at a little produce-district bar in Oakland (called the Merchants). A lively little blues/rock/punk scene began to develop, new groups who couldn't play in established clubs. Mostly originals, some cover versions. Bands didn't make any money, it was just fun to have a gig and a scene. One night the BMI guy came in and started getting heavy with the bar owner. Boom - all music stopped and never re-started. Owner didn't want the hassle and the expense. Scene dead... Thanks a lot BMI for promoting live music.

[Tremo]

If you're playing covers, you have to pay. If you're playing your own originals, you might NOT have to pay. Have the resturant owner tell the BMI guy that you play only originals.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by jhundt

we used to play at a little produce-district bar in Oakland (called the Merchants). A lively little blues/rock/punk scene began to develop, new groups who couldn't play in established clubs. Mostly originals, some cover versions. Bands didn't make any money, it was just fun to have a gig and a scene. One night the BMI guy came in and started getting heavy with the bar owner. Boom - all music stopped and never re-started. Owner didn't want the hassle and the expense. Scene dead... Thanks a lot BMI for promoting live music.

So the bar didn't pay the bands, didn't pay BMI. Did they pay their taxes - insurance - electric bill?

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by jhundt

Owner didn't want the hassle and the expense. Scene dead... Thanks a lot BMI for promoting live music.

The alternative for this system would be for every artist or band to negotiate individually with the copyright holder of the songs they want to perform. The site license system was created to avoid that.

Jim

[Tylercaster]

Looks like its time to put on a singer-songwriter circle there! Thanks for the input. 8)

[jhundt]

would be for BMI to butt out and let people play some music. How much do you think I would owe to say, Badfinger, for playing a version of a song they wrote 20 years before in a bar one night in Oakland CA? Anyway, in the end none of the artists who were occaisionally being covered received a penny because the music was stopped, so I guess we're all happy now.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by jhundt

would be for BMI to butt out and let people play some music. How much do you think I would owe to say, Badfinger, for playing a version of a song they wrote 20 years before in a bar one night in Oakland CA? Anyway, in the end none of the artists who were occaisionally being covered received a penny because the music was stopped, so I guess we're all happy now.

The artists who are being covered are receiving royalties from the businesses who pay what they legally owe. Those businesses don't have to feel like fools for paying while incompetent businessmen ignore the law.

If you want music to be free, write some, give it away, put it in the public domain. If you don't have that much talent, play songs that are in the public domain. There's only a few millenia's worth of music out there. BMI won't have anything to do with it.

[eryque]

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

So the bar didn't pay the bands, didn't pay BMI. Did they pay their taxes - insurance - electric bill?

C'mon, you can't reasonably expect bar owners to pay BMI after they get done paying off the county for their liquor license and the building inspector for ignoring the fact that the place is probably a fire hazard and the health inspector for overlooking the obvious....

:)

[Billy Claire]

Originally Posted by Tremo

If you're playing covers, you have to pay. If you're playing your own originals, you might NOT have to pay. Have the resturant owner tell the BMI guy that you play only originals.

That doesn't work. It sounds good in principle, but you can't tell every band, don't play ANY covers because it will happen eventually.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by jhundt

Thanks a lot BMI for promoting live music.

But BMI does promote live music -- on behalf of the people who own the performing rights to that music. Not on behalf of people who want to perform it without paying for the right.

How much do you think I would owe to say, Badfinger, for playing a version of a song they wrote 20 years before in a bar one night in Oakland CA?

That's the same rationale used by illegal downloaders.

BMI and ASCAP are there to protect songwriters and publishers and make sure they get paid. That's a good thing.

[Tele295]

Originally Posted by jhundt

would be for BMI to butt out and let people play some music. How much do you think I would owe to say, Badfinger, for playing a version of a song they wrote 20 years before in a bar one night in Oakland CA? Anyway, in the end none of the artists who were occaisionally being covered received a penny because the music was stopped, so I guess we're all happy now.

Does Badfinger (in this example) actually get the money? How does BMI/ASCAP know which songs are being played? I'ver never had to turn in a setlist, and you can bet the tavernkeeper isn't keeping track.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble - I really want to know.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by Tele295

Does Badfinger (in this example) actually get the money? How does BMI/ASCAP know which songs are being played? I'ver never had to turn in a setlist, and you can bet the tavernkeeper isn't keeping track.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble - I really want to know.

Look here for some info.

[lenny]

Originally Posted by Billy Claire

That doesn't work. It sounds good in principle, but you can't tell every band, don't play ANY covers because it will happen eventually.

also, the establishment pays, i believe yearly, not each particular group.

[Bob Rogers]

Here is the form that BMI uses to calculate the fees. Seems like your once a week gig qualifies for the minimum fee. Of course, if she is playing canned music on the other nights then you are not really the problem. She has to pay for that as well.

[jpkusa]

Here's the thing: BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC are looking out for songwriters, as was stated earlier. SESAC, which is who I'm with, is actually a not-for-profit company.

Think of it this way: In general, local original music doesn't draw people to bars like cover bands do. The vast majority of John Q. Public won't pay a cover to hear songs they've never heard. But they'll pay to dance to the hits they know, and a club might sell twice as much booze with a cover band playing as they will with an original band. So if the club is making more money because they have bands playing songs everyone knows, then the club should pay for those songs.

Unless they're very popular, original bands are lucky to make 100 bucks; sometimes lucky to make anything at all. But a cover band can get triple digit guarantees. If the club is making enough at the door and selling enough booze to pay the band that much, then the club can pay the liscence fees. IMHO.

Now I do make an exception for very small, coffee-house type places that don't see a lot of traffic. When it comes to paying the fees, I'm talking about college bars, or tourist bars like here on Beale, that see a lot of traffic every night specifically for live cover music.

[jpkusa]

Originally Posted by Tylercaster

On the off weekends I've been playing acoustic music at a local restaurant just for tips. There's no cover and their may be 30 or 40 folks at the most.

I just re-read your original post, Tylercaster, and I missed the part about you playing for tips, with no cover. I agree that BMI is being too hard on that restaurant, unless as stated earlier she's also playing CDs. Sorry about the confusion on my end. :)

It's my understanding that an establishment is safe if they play the radio or pipe the music in from a digital service, because the radio stations already pay BMI/ASCAP.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by jpkusa

It's my understanding that an establishment is safe if they play the radio or pipe the music in from a digital service, because the radio stations already pay BMI/ASCAP.

I'm not sure about this, but I don't think they can play broadcast radio. (..for the private, noncommercial use of our audience....) Piped music (e.g. XM radio) has a special rate for commercial establishments and they pay all the BMI/ASCAP fees.

[Dave W]

You do have to pay for broadcast radio if you're a retail store and play broadcast radio for your customers to hear while shopping.

[Oskar]

getting paid while playing the creative efforts of others. My band has been moving more and more towards originals so this hasn't been much of a personal issue with me lately.
While I can't condone the almost police-like tactics of BMI, there is also the issue of people making money off the songs of others. It's as if you go into a coffee house and get paid to read e.e cummings' poetry. I guess it's the old question of creative rights, who holds them, and how are they enforced.
I have to admit it's never stopped me from playing covers and getting paid for it, but I don get a twinge of guilt at times.

[Tylercaster]

8)

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by Oskar

...I have to admit it's never stopped me from playing covers and getting paid for it, but I don get a twinge of guilt at times.

Well you shouldn't. The law doesn't obligate the performer to pay. The person charging admission is the one required to pay. If the place you are playing in is paying it's dues (and in fact most of them do) you are helping to support the artists whose songs you are playing.

[jpkusa]

Originally Posted by Dave W

You do have to pay for broadcast radio if you're a retail store and play broadcast radio for your customers to hear while shopping.

Is that for retail only, or for restaurants too?

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by jpkusa

Is that for retail only, or for restaurants too?

It's for restaurants too. It's explained pretty well on BMI's website.

[gtrjones]

Here's the way I look at it... songs are the intellectual property of the artist - the songwriter. If a commercial establishment (bar, coffeehouse, whatever) is benefitting from playing those songs (whether on a jukebox, radio, or stage) - and that benefit can take the form of cover charges, or even just increased traffic and sales, the OWNER of the songs is entitled to some compensation for improving that commercial business.

I love the fact that ASCAP and BMI are working for songwriters... while I might not necessarily agree with their formulas for doling-out monies, I am glad they are out collecting, and protecting our intellectual property.

[jpkusa]

I just re-read this thread, and I realized that I accidently said something incorrect. What I meant to say was that BMI and ASCAP are non-profit, but SESAC is for-profit. My bad!