hands go numb after playin guitar

[Bandit]

My doctor sent me to a specialist who confirmed that I do have a mild case of Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I have three options:
wear a brace, get some cortizone injections (not recommended by chiropractor) or have SURGERY.

I'm told that the surgery is quick and easy, but we're talking about my fretting hand here. I am a little worried. I woke up every morning for the past week with the tips of my fingers numb all the way to the first joint.

Has anyone else had problems like thiese. Has anyone had this surgery? The surgery will be on my fretting hand. I'm not worried about going under the knife I just wond er how it will affect my guitar playing?


Carpel Tunnel Syndrome occurs when tendons or ligaments in the wrist becomes enlarged, often from inflammation, after being aggravated.

The narrowed tunnel of bones and ligaments in the wrist pinches the nerves that reach the fingers and the muscles at the base of the thumb. The first symptoms usually appear at night.

Symptoms range from a burning, tingling numbness in the fingers, especially the thumb and the index and middle fingers, to difficulty gripping or making a fist, to dropping things.

Treatment
Carpal tunnel syndrome is treated by immobilizing the wrist in a splint to minimize or prevent pressure on the nerves. If that fails, patients are sometimes given anti-inflammatory drugs or injections of cortisone in the wrist to reduce the swelling.

There is also a surgical procedure in which doctors can open the wrist and cut the ligament at the bottom of the wrist to relieve the pressure. However, only a small percentage of patients require surgery.

Prognosis
Approximately 1 percent of individuals with carpal tunnel syndrome develop permanent injury. The majority recover completely and can avoid reinjury by changing the way they do repetitive movements, the frequency with which they do the movements, and the amount of time they rest between periods when they perform the movements.

http://www.seniormag.com/conditions/...rpeltunnel.htm

[blue water girl]

Yes, Bandit, my husband is a fulltime session guitarist, Brent Mason, and he has had alot of problems over the years with the numbness/tingling etc. you are talking about. He saw several specialists about ten years ago and finally found relief through a chiropractor who also specializes in homeopathic medicine. He sees him regularly now to keep everything in working order so he won't have a serious setback. He knew better than to let someone touch him surgically before he explored other options and it took about two months of suffering during the worst spell he had and he also had to wear one of those bandage braces you can buy in the athletic tape and bandage section of most stores. He even wore it at night and one day the problem just seemed to have disappeared. He knows other guitarists who have all had this from time to time and actually most of them have a little "touch" of it they are in the process of taking care of most of the time. But none of them have undergone any sort of surgical treatment for fear that it could do more damage than good at this point in their lives and careers. It was a terrible problem for Brent the one time and he worried constantly about it not to mention the pain he was in. I guess it goes along with the territory of playing the guitar so much and for so many years.

Another really bad problem Brent has that has been caused by his career of guitar playing is constant pain in his fingertips, ripped and torn and bleeding fingertips, they peel and hurt and he has to glue all the tears together with that second skin liquid glue or crazy glue to get through a day sometimes. I've seen him do shows where if I am sitting close enough I see blood on his strings when he starts to play Hot Wired. No one notices it but I know. And he will occasionally slip a note when this happens because his strings get so wet. Yucky. He has to see a dermatologist for this problem and it is a combination of hand eczema and also infection that sets in from the cuts. Also to get steroid shots when the problem is flaring up in it's worst stages. He can't wear bandaids or bandages or gloves to keep that from happening because he can't play if he does that. It makes him furious and they are never able to heal because they need longer than a day or two if he has the weekend off to repair themselves. When they hurt really bad he just plays harder because he is so mad that this is happening. I guess he feels like he is fighting back or something.

There are several conditions like this that musicians go through - not to mention hearing loss due to the loud volumes and the headphones they have to wear in the studio every day that just blast all that frequency into their eardrums for so many years. Brent can barely hear a telephone ring now. Alot of the musicians he work with can't hear themselves rub their thumb and index finger together right next to their ear. That's a sign of some significant hearing loss. Brent can't hear that either.

whoops - sorry to ramble on about guitar related injuries. I know you were wondering specifically about carpel tunnel. My husband's experiences with it came just from guitar playing and not from anything else. Yours may have a different origin. You might do fantastic with the surgery. I do know people who don't play the guitar, but whose jobs require them to do lots of delicate hand sewing and that sort of thing and they did very well with the surgery and found relief. I hope whatever you do you get the help you need. Seems like you have done alot of research on the subject. I wish I knew of a guitarist who had undergone that surgery and it had no effect on his playing but I don't - they were all too worried about the aftereffects like you are to risk it.

[SteveY]

I've had the surgery, in 1996.
No problems since.
My picking hand still has some symptoms, but did not get the surgery.
Six weeks recovery after mine, which was cut open, not "insert tool and open blade." In my case, the new techniques wouldn't have worked (my nerve was deep and buried).

Before surgery, I got some relief from IBprofen and icing, but things got worse so I opted for the surgery.
Very happy with the results. Today I have NO symptoms in the left hand.

Surgery works best in people who do not scar heavily, though.

[e-merlin]

My first "career" was in a beef packing plant when I was young. I ruined my hands and wrists in the 6 years I worked there, but I never got Carpal Tunnel. A friend of mine, who also was a guitar player, did get it, though. He had pain all the way up and down his arm. He finally had to have surgery twice and it never really went away completely, but I think he let it go for too long and he was also doing one of the most difficult jobs there.

My latest "career" also requires lots of finger and hand dexterity and one of the ladies that's been there for about 10 or 15 years has been battling CTS for quite a while. She finally, and reluctantly, had the surgery in December. She came back to work at the end of February and has been on light duty. She said she had immediate relief right after the surgery. She goes back to her regular job next week, so we'll see how it really went in a couple of months.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't have surgery until I have tried everything else. And if I did decide to have surgery I would ask around to find the best doctor; someone who specializes in that type of thing.

[JimmyZ]

I was back playing in three weeks and have always been glad that I had it. I now need it on my right hand but knowing how easy it was on the left I am not worried at all. I suggest that you get a consult with an experienced orthopedic surgeon who specializes in it and see what he/she says. No point in living in pain when the fix is so easy.

[JimmyZ]

I was back playing in three weeks and have always been glad that I had it. I now need it on my right hand but knowing how easy it was on the left I am not worried at all. I suggest that you get a consult with an experienced orthopedic surgeon who specializes in it and see what he/she says. No point in living in pain when the fix is so easy.

[FUMoney]

When I was playing between 5 and 7 nights a week there were nights when my fretting hand would be completely numb. All I could do was try to shake the feeling back into it between chords. Another problem I had to contend with was shoulder and neck pain where my guitar strap rides. My doc told me mail men suffer from this also. My addiction to Duke Nukem 3d and Halflife that year didn't help matters! 8)

Ed

[Bill]

Hi Blue Water Girl,

Has he tried those latex fingertip thingies you get at the drug store in the bandaid/surgical wrap aisle? (They look like itty-bitty condoms.) It seems you could put it just on the bad finger(s) and wouldn't be as sweaty or annoying as wearing latex surgical gloves.

You could even put a tiny bit of cotton in the tip to act as padding for an especially sore fingertip.

[blue water girl]

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Blue Water Girl,

Has he tried those latex fingertip thingies you get at the drug store in the bandaid/surgical wrap aisle? (They look like itty-bitty condoms.) It seems you could put it just on the bad finger(s) and wouldn't be as sweaty or annoying as wearing latex surgical gloves.

You could even put a tiny bit of cotton in the tip to act as padding for an especially sore fingertip.

When he is having a very severe flare up he might wear them at home so that his fingers won't come into contact with soaps and shampoos, hair gel, lemon juice or any other irritants that will slow down their recovery, but there is absolutely no way he can play the guitar with them on. Try it!!! The problem is that just when they get a bit better he has to play again and mess them all up. The only thing that helps him is to literally glue his open cuts or slices on his fingertips together for the duration of work that day. Also getting a steroid shot makes it go away much more quickly. This started to happen to Brent only a few years ago and according to a specialist guitarists who play for years and years without stopping will eventually come up with this condition but it is rare for someone his age (45) to have such a severe case. It's only on his index and third fingers on both hands. Also, when he is having major problems he has to switch to strings that have no nickel content, which don't perform as well for his needs and he has tried many. Several string manufacturers have tried to develop some strings for Brent to use that contain no nickel but he plays so roughly that he causes the coating on the strings to come off after about an hour or the weight just isn't right and he can't stand to use them very long.

[SteveY]

The guy's a National Treasure.
Somebody needs to allocate some research money on really important things like this, rather than the usual Savings and Loans bailouts!

[weemikey]

This is a bit off topic, but my wife is a hairdresser and she struggles with repetitive stress issues all the time. Her Pilates instructor loaned us a video of stretches for the hands, wrists, head and neck that were really good. Though stretching can't undo damage, a good daily regimen of stretching can help alleviate some of the symptoms and help prevent further damage.

Of course I don't know the name of the video, but the POINT is that there are most likely other books/videos that might offer the same advice. Better than surgery!

[kp8]

i have had several operations on my fretting hand. There are hand centers in some hospitals that cater especially to musicians, with therapist that understand well then special needs of musicians.

One such place is the hand center at St. Luke's Hosital in New York at Columbus Circle.

They operated on me twice. Nicer, more senisitive and open minded doctors, and therapists you could not ask for.

When i go to other hospitals and show them my hand and they observe me with incredible wonder.

My hand is still a mess, but my accident was severe so it is not a reflection on them.

You need to consider the possibility that NOT having the operation will be ultimately more damaging.

Best of luck to you.

kevin

[RAC]

[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...99466-4783240]

Interesting concepts that could apply to ya'
good luck
Rick

[Bandit]

Nice to hear there are guitar players that have had the surgery and things have gone well.

I remember now that I had a sore wrist when I worked in a tire warehouse. Could have hurt it then.

I guess the human hand wasn't designed to play with high tension steel strings. But I do love the sound they make.

Thanks for the input.

[Stan Martin]

one or all of the following may need to be done to alleviate or prevent C.T..

1. hike your guitar up! sure you look cool with it hanging past your belt line, but the extreme wrist angle needed to make barre chords is a good way to pinch nerves etc.

2. use the lightest possible strings and get a bigger amp if need be to make up the "tone loss" from the smaller gauge string. Jimi, Clarence White etc used smaller gauge strings and big amps. The lighter gauge will result in less strain to bend strings. When the other he-men are using 12+ and can't unzip their pants because they can't grip diddly due to carpal tunnel. Well I rest my case.

3. adjust they way you grip the neck(lighten up on the choking grip). also see #1. if you snap that wrist over too much you are looking for trouble. And I don't mean from bikers hanging at the bar . Sometimes folding a face cloth over and taping it to your wrist so you are forced play without curling your wrist over too much.

Again using enough pressure to fret the notes is all you need. This is where the lighter gauge strings will help tremendously.

[TG]

Originally Posted by blue water girl

When he is having a very severe flare up he might wear them at home so that his fingers won't come into contact with soaps and shampoos, hair gel, lemon juice or any other irritants that will slow down their recovery, but there is absolutely no way he can play the guitar with them on. Try it!!! The problem is that just when they get a bit better he has to play again and mess them all up. The only thing that helps him is to literally glue his open cuts or slices on his fingertips together for the duration of work that day. Also getting a steroid shot makes it go away much more quickly. This started to happen to Brent only a few years ago and according to a specialist guitarists who play for years and years without stopping will eventually come up with this condition but it is rare for someone his age (45) to have such a severe case. It's only on his index and third fingers on both hands. Also, when he is having major problems he has to switch to strings that have no nickel content, which don't perform as well for his needs and he has tried many. Several string manufacturers have tried to develop some strings for Brent to use that contain no nickel but he plays so roughly that he causes the coating on the strings to come off after about an hour or the weight just isn't right and he can't stand to use them very long.

I used to make my living practicing Chinese herbal medicine and in my experience people with hand problems involving skin sensitivity, excema, arthritis, etc...always have some sort of liver deficiency. Not a liver 'problem' necessarily, but improving the general function will usually lead to the hand problems improving as well.

Eating garlic in the diet may make it worse, BTW. Especially if the eyes are very light sensitive or get sore and itchy alot. (Don't ask me why. It's just that these symptoms often go together.)

It could be worth his while checking out a TCM (trad. Chinese medicine) practitioner.

[Charlie Bernstein]

first, to blue water girl - i read in a jerry garcia interview that he used to take six month breaks pretty regularly - he'd go scuba diving, things like that. didn't seem to hurt his career any more than having nine fingers did. maybe brent's ten could take a sabbatical?

second, i talked to an old guitar player when i was having some minor but escalating finger trouble. he gave me all kinds of advice, but the one that seemed to do the most good was to take an anti-inflamatory (like aspirin) daily whether my fingers hurt or not.

[Dana]

This may not be related but I've noticed over the past year I've developed an ache in the middle of my right shoulder. I think it's caused through a combination of playing and working on the computer all day. Some days it's mild and some days it's severe, but lately it seems to always be there. I wonder if a chiropractor would help in this situation as well? I've never been to one.

[FUMoney]

Originally Posted by Dana

I wonder if a chiropractor would help in this situation as well? I've never been to one.

I don't go on a regular basis but I'd have to give a thumbs up on my chiropracter experiences.

Ed

[mark norwine]

cortisone shots hurt like hell, but they sure do work! While I don't "enjoy them", i enjoy the pain relief I get. i've had them before and they sure do work well!

[TeleTubby]

My Mom had to have both wrists operated on, mostly because of repetitive quilting/knitting. Though they had to be done at separate times, she's had absolutely no pain since and has been CTS-free for almost 15 years now.

[microphonic squeal]

Originally Posted by Dana

This may not be related but I've noticed over the past year I've developed an ache in the middle of my right shoulder. I think it's caused through a combination of playing and working on the computer all day. Some days it's mild and some days it's severe, but lately it seems to always be there. I wonder if a chiropractor would help in this situation as well? I've never been to one.

Hi Dana,

Yes, it is related. The same nerve that runs through the wrist goes through the elbow and up to the shoulder. I have had the same problem for years. It is the computer's mouse that will get you, which is then aggravated by the guitar. Try a track ball.

When the problem flares up, I have found for me that playing a smaller guitar is much easier. I have a Rick 320 (short scale without vibrato). I guess that it changes the hand angles/grip etc, to something different, relieving the repetition. (BTW, the only strings that will intonate correctly on this Ric are pyramid gold flat wound 13's).

[mcollinstn]

For those with carpal tunnel, who desire relief and are leery of surgery, I can relay some experiences from three people I know who have CTS.

One is my wife. Apparently some people have smallish "carpal tunnels" (the opening in the bone of the hand through which the nerve in question passes) and they are more prone to CTS. She had it flare up in her right (writing) hand in college and had surgery in 1985. It took her about three weeks of significant discomfort but it healed and provided her relief. The CTS has not returned. She sews, and has since about that same time, and eventually her left hand developed it to a significant degree.

A friend also sews and had a CTS surgery horror story, so my wife was leery about having surgery on the second hand. A respected orthopedic surgeon recommended one of his partners as the best in town and told my wife to go see her. My wife had a consultation and came home tellig me she was scheduled for the follwing week. My mind raced with images of having to wipe my wife's butt for a month, but she had two days of mild discomfort and complete recovery in less than two weeks. And I mean complete recovery and back to sewing.

Her friend who had the horror story was amazed at the result and got her second hand operated on by this specialist. Same incredibly quick recovery time. Both women sew daily and have complete relief from their CTS.

Another friend is a design engineer who uses a 12 button digitizer all day long every day. He developed CTS and was tested for it. Apparently "the right way" to test for it involves hooking you up to a bunch of electrodes and using a machine to measure nerve impulse strength along your arm and into your hand. Anyhow he tested for CTS. He was concerned about surgical downtime, so the doctor put him on anti inflammatories (daypro I believe) and put him in a sleeping brace. He wears the sleeping brace three or four nights a week, and sometimes wears a hand wrap at work. For six years, his CTS has been controlled with the above treatment.

If you earn your living with your hands, it is a catch 22.

I just figured for you guys who are dealing with it, more info is better than less info.

I have no CTS, but I do have very aggravating tendonitis in my left arm that I will have to do something about. Anybody got advice about that?

mc

[Great Ape]

I've had a lot of RSI-type problems over the years - a combination of a PC-based day job with less-than-perfect ergonomics and guitar weight/ergonomics/bad habits. I've found a few things that help:
1) Osteopathy. A lot of my problems were due to tight neck / shoulder muscles, which were affecting my elbow and wrist. After a painful few sessions to sort out the main problem, I've bitten the bullet and go back once or twice every few months for a 'top-up.' Has helped a lot.
2) Posture. I'm 6'2", and the world seems made for people a good few inches shorter! Kitchen worksurfaces, particularly. I now make a conscious effort to stand up straight and look ahead, which I didn't do for years. Of course, I step in more dog crap now...
3) Hatha Yoga. Did this for a while, and found it very helpful. Slept a lot better while doing it, too. More exhausting than running!
4) Raise guitar. Pretty obvious.
5) Get a flat back guitar. I always played a strat, and of course the low-E side angles towards you. A guitar with a flat back like a tele stays perpedicular to the vertical, reducing wrist-stretch. I actually think that the Fender Deluxe teles have it wrong - I'd go for no back contour but would have a forearm contour.
6) Lighter guitar. I now play a Reverend Slingshot most of the time, which weighs next to nothing. I'd considered a Parker for a while (too pricey, didn't like the tone) but then discovered Reverend, which solved those problems. Just wish they'd put a wider, deeper neck on it.
7) Put the amp where I can easily hear it. Might sound daft, but I realized that I was always angling my head down towards the amp to hear it. I now put it higher up. Lose a bit of bass response, but I live with it.

[Honga Man]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I have three options:
wear a brace, get some cortizone injections (not recommended by chiropractor) or have SURGERY.

Why would you listen to a chiropractor?

I'm not just blowing steam here; I suffered a broken 5th metacarpal on my right hand in October '04 and was treated by a percutaneous pin in the hollowed-out bone for 8 weeks. I am just now regaining full use of the hand.

Consult a doctor, not some guy who no matter what the affliction will prescribe a weekly visit from now until you die.

You'll get better advice (and less of a commission-hungry sales pitch) from your insurance agent.

And, yes, I work on 100% commission, so I don't take lightly others who do so.

Best of luck to you.