$37K!!! Should I do it?

[reverbbb]

I just got the call yesterday, that my local Toyota dealer is now taking orders on the new Toyota Highlander Hybrid. I predict, that within the week, there will be 5,000 orders on these vehicles. There is now a 3 year back-order on the Toyota Prius according to one source (and confirmed by someone waiting). Last month, the Toyota press-release was stating that there are over 31,000 confirmed customers waiting for the Highlander Hybrid. I think that this year's production will be less than 5,000 vehicles.

The problem is, the cost. It is BIG! After the non-negotiable list price of $33K, the dealer $1500 upcharge for the demand, the 6.25% sales tax, plus title and license fees, this is racked up to a whopping $37K :shock .

If I want to get into this vehicle, then I am going to have to act fast (like today). The dealer is requiring a non-refundable (unless an order error from the factory) $500 deposit. Then, I am placed in the queue of a 3 month delivery. If I wait until next week, the wait could increase to 5 or 6 months and the price may increase.

I am so leary to spending that much money on a vehicle that will certainly depreciate. However, they tell me that a 3 year old Prius is still holding 90% of it's list price value due to the demand and the back-log. In about 5 years, the expensive maintenance will begin (like a $3000 battery replacement).

The anticipated gas milage is about 40 mpg EPA estimates. A non-hybrid Highlander is about 24 mpg. But analysts warn that you should not buy a hybrid vehicle to save money - it won't happen considering the price of the vehicle and the long term maintenance. On the other hand, that statement was issued before the $3.00 gas predictions was widely publisized. I am strongly considering this technology for two reasons: 1) I must do SOMETHING to stop burning up the limited petroleum that God gave the earth 50 million years ago, 2) I don't mind paying a premium to help promote the shift in technology (I put my money where my mouth is in a sense).

Something else, I put my name solidly into the hat last May, '04 for a Ford Escape Hybrid. Nobody has ever called me and the word is, that they are way back-ordered also and I may NEVER be called by the Ford dealership.

Someone suggested that I consider leasing. Then in 5 years when the maintenance and the obscelesence begins, I can give the vehicle back and start over. Until now, I have never considered leasing as a practicle solution.

What would you guys do if you barely had the financial means to go through with it? You should consider that my current '92 Silverado has 230,000 miles and is costing me $600+ in repairs every few months now. I am on the verge of buying a new SOMETHING any way.

[Joe-Bob]

I would talk to another dealer if I were you.

First off, why pay over sticker for a car that's still in production?
Secondly, a Prius only gets 75% of the predicted milage.
Third, a non-refundable deposit is illegal in the state of Texas.
Finally, if you were genuinely concerned about gas milage and wasting resources, you wouldn't have a Silverado to begin with, and you wouldn't be looking at a hybrid SUV, you would be driving an economical compact car.

It may be time to start being a little more honest with yourself about your concern over the environment.

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by reverbbb

I am so leary to spending that much money on a vehicle that will certainly depreciate.

I'm not against owning new cars...it's just hard to justify financially.

Originally Posted by reverbbb

What would you guys do if you barely had the financial means to go through with it? You should consider that my current '92 Silverado has 230,000 miles and is costing me $600+ in repairs every few months now. I am on the verge of buying a new SOMETHING any way.

$600 every few months sounds much better to me than a $500+ a month car payment (which is what you're looking at).

I love new cars. I love muscle cars, and I love fuel efficiant, low maintainance cars. But I don't love car payments.

I always try to buy at least 3 years old, low miles, in good shape, and pay cash. I get the most car I can get for the cash sum that I have saved. Then start a fund for the next car immediately. I use funds from that account for repairs.

[reverbbb]

Joe-Bob:

I am first in line to call myself a hypocrite in some regards. I have been bummed about owning a big vehicle ever since I bought it. However, there are two drivers in my family - my wife and me. This truck was originally hers and we bought it based on her pleading. At the time, I was driving a 6 banger S-10, but the gas mileage was worse than the Silverado. I was/am completely fed up with automobiles that depreciate at a rate of 20% per year. Trucks and SUV do not depreciate that fast.

In 1981, I owned a little Honda Civic. It got good gas mileage, but is was a terror to drive due to it's tiny size. It also gave me endless problems with vapor locking. I sold it for 30% of what I paid for it after owning it for only 3 years. In 1979~1981, I majored in Solar Technologies. I then started a solar contracting business. I installed over 200 residential systems in the Dallas-FTW area (more than any other contractor during that time in the entire state). But as time, politics, and the American dream wore on me, I slowly migrated toward the patterns of most Americans.

However, I am not totally sold out. Every light fixture in my house is equipped with the energy saving screw in fluorescent lamps. I recycle more mass than I throw away in my trash. I don't water my grass with the sprinkler system that was installed before I bought my house. I used to own a battery powered lawnmower until it crapped out after 7 years of regular use. I have an energy saving setback thermostat and keep my house at 70 degrees in the winter and 80 degrees in the summer while I'm home (65 W & 82 S when I'm gone). I have ceiling fans in every room of my house. I walk to lunch nearly every day that I am at work. I limit my driving trips every chance I get. I have convinced only one co-worker to car-pull and that is only 2 times a week. I walk to the grocery store. I ride my bicycle all the time (strange to see someone my age riding a bike around). I pay a 7% premium price for Green Mountain Enegery 100% Wind Powered Electricity ($0.1252/kWh vs. $0.1173/kWh).

I do all of this amidst snickering peers and a reluctant family that thinks I'm obsessive in my conservation efforts.

I have been strongly considering riding the bus. However, it takes 1-1/2 hours each way from my house to work I can drive the same trip in 20 minutes. In order for me to get to work on the bus on time, I need to be at the bus stop at 5:44 am. Then I would get home in the evening at 6:50 pm. But, I am still considering it eating up 3 unproductive hours a day of my life.

Illegal or not, I was told that the deposit is not refundable unless the factory did not meet their end of the agreement for the vehicle. But, I agree with you. In the long run, to request a refund is just another headache to deal with even if I were within my rights.

As far as why pay more and ask another dealer - the word is that some of the Toyota dealers are falsifying their invoices in some way to reflect very high demand premiums of $6,000 above invoice for a Prius, my dealer is only charging $1500 over invoice.

Why would I want a compact car that is not as safe, cannot carry my equipment and depreciates at double the rate of an SUV that gets better gas mileage than most cars? I will never buy another American made "car" after my experiance with a new '85 Celebrity. I have never seen such a dissaster at my expense. That vehicle cost me $25,000 in base price and maintenance and I only owned it for 4 years. I sold it for $500.

Am I being honest with myself? Perhaps not. However, if I am not, then I dare say that very few others are being any more honest or willing to sacrifice as I am.

To base my outlook on the environment on the fact that I currently drive a large vehicle, is a bit too much of a stereo-type assumption about me. There is a much more complex person on this side of the computer than you are suggesting.

[reverbbb]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTexan

$600 every few months sounds much better to me than a $500+ a month car payment (which is what you're looking at).

I love new cars. I love muscle cars, and I love fuel efficiant, low maintainance cars. But I don't love car payments.

I always try to buy at least 3 years old, low miles, in good shape, and pay cash. I get the most car I can get for the cash sum that I have saved. Then start a fund for the next car immediately. I use funds from that account for repairs.

This sounds like a VERY good plan. However, it does not address the "environmental issue" that I am struggling to be a part of for improving.

By basic transportation plan has been, buy new, and own for 10 years. My truck has already exceeded that by nearly 4 years. I have not had a car payment on that vehicle since 1995. That is 10 years of driving that vehicle without a payment.

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by reverbbb

This sounds like a VERY good plan. However, it does not address the "environmental issue" that I am struggling to be a part of for improving.

Yeah. That makes sense.

I understand that you're wanting to make a statement, and "put your money where your mouth is" so to speak.

I don't want to drag this thread into an environmantal debate, but think of it this way....

I know that we've got to start somewhere. And for you, maybe that somewhere is right here, right now, with this car. BUT...how much of a positive impact is this run of cars really going to have on the environment? It won't be until the average-joe can afford one (<$20k) that they will really catch on. That's when we can start to make a difference.

If this were a hot button issue for me, maybe I would be thinking about it from a different perspective. But if they ever make a '79 Trans Am body, with a hybrid engine...I'm there. :) I just can't stand the look of the hybrid offerings of the past several years. Why do they all have to look so spacey? :)

Originally Posted by reverbbb

I have not had a car payment on that vehicle since 1995. That is 10 years of driving that vehicle without a payment.

Doesn't it feel GREAT!!!!.....Relish this day....remember how it feels.

There's a nationally syndicated radio talk show host named Dave Ramsey that lives here in town. His show is called "The Money Game" and it teaches people how to use money wisely. Very good show. One of Dave's great sayings is that you don't become wealthy by making car payments.

[reverbbb]

Between this forum and another that I had posted at, there is a lot of good sensable discussion going around.

I may seem defensive on this issue. But for me, I am really seeking other perspectives so that I don't go off and waste money needlessly. I know there are alternatives to the hybrid for conserving gas. I already enjoy exploiting some of the alternatives. I am not poor, yet I am not wealthy either. I "can" afford this vehicle. But the real question, "is it worth it, and will I truely be helping the environment?".

Most will say that it is not worth the price. Some will also say that I cannot possibly make any difference in conservation. On the other hand, there are 31,000 confirmed buyers wanting this new technology. 10 years ago, that number surely would have been much smaller. Something (or some people) is changing the attitude and are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

If I truely wanted to be energy conservative, make the sacrifice and save a lot of money in the process, I would expand my use of the bicycle like they do in Austin, TX and all over Colorado & California.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by reverbbb

Why would I want a compact car that is not as safe, cannot carry my equipment and depreciates at double the rate of an SUV that gets better gas mileage than most cars? I will never buy another American made "car" after my experiance with a new '85 Celebrity. I have never seen such a dissaster at my expense. That vehicle cost me $25,000 in base price and maintenance and I only owned it for 4 years. I sold it for $500.

Compact cars are not as unsafe as they used to be. Our son just got t-boned in a 2000 Ford Focus by a Chevy Avalance, the car was totaled, he was fine, with minor cuts and bruises. SUVs are nowhere near as safe as people think they are. I have a 2001 Focus hatchback. It carries a double buttload of gear with the seats folded down, and gets almost 30 mpg loaded down on a trip. I average 27-28 mpg in daily use. I feel like I'm doing my part.

As long as people are still allowed to drive cars that billow blue smoke, and pickup trucks that spew black smoke, that pollute as much as the next two thousand cars put together, it won't matter how many people drive hybrids.

[Matt Plescher]

Originally Posted by reverbbb

I have convinced only one co-worker to car-pull and that is only 2 times a week.

That would take some convincing. Would save a lot of gas though. :D


Cheers
Matt

[tschommer]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Compact cars are not as unsafe as they used to be. Our son just got t-boned in a 2000 Ford Focus by a Chevy Avalance, the car was totaled, he was fine, with minor cuts and bruises. SUVs are nowhere near as safe as people think they are. I have a 2001 Focus hatchback. It carries a double buttload of gear with the seats folded down, and gets almost 30 mpg loaded down on a trip. I average 27-28 mpg in daily use. I feel like I'm doing my part.

As long as people are still allowed to drive cars that billow blue smoke, and pickup trucks that spew black smoke, that pollute as much as the next two thousand cars put together, it won't matter how many people drive hybrids.

Right On!! Things like airbags, side impact airbags, and crumple zones (most people don't realize that cars are engineered to fold up upon impact to absorb some of the g-force of a collision impact) make even small cars pretty safe. Add to the fact that small cars are more maneuverable, have shorter stopping distances, and are less prone to rollover and I think you are better off in a small car. The one exception to the safety of a small car is if you are unfortunate enough to run into a narcissist driving a big SUV just because it's safer. (that last comment is not aimed at you Reverbbb, I'm just kind of a jerk).

Personally if I was going to spend that kind of money I kick in another 10K and get a new Corvette! 400HP and 0 to 60 in under 4 seconds and... it gets 28 miles per gallon on the hwy!!

[reverbbb]

Originally Posted by Matt Plescher

That would take some convincing. Would save a lot of gas though. :D


Cheers
Matt

pull ~ pool : what's the difference

[Matt Plescher]

When you saw my name at the end of the thread you probably thought:
"Matt will surely have some words of wisdom for me"

:D

Just couldn't resist.
Cheers
Matt

[eryque]

There's a good reason to buy this vehicle: the more people buy these, the more the manufacturers will make in the future, so eventually they'll be affordable for most new car buyers.

And they're kinda cool.

But like the other folks said, SUVs are not nearly as safe as people think and are much more dangerous for everyone else. Every time we get a slippery snowfall here, the shoulders see their share of people in compact and mid-size cars, but it seems that most of the people that actually get into the ditch are SUVs. All that momentum carries them a lot farther. And the only ones that have any off-road advantage are those that are well-designed 4WD off-road vehicles. Most are not.

When you compare the amount of stuff you'd normally carry in one of those vs. what you'd carry in a car with a similar footprint, you'll find an SUV has little or no advantage there. I'd put my 95 Subaru wagon up against any 4-seat SUV from the same era.

And American manufacturers have learned an awful lot since '85. There was a very, very dark period in American cars that seems to have ended around the late 90s. Don't be afraid to give American cars a look again. I know lots of folks with new Toyotas and Hondas and Subarus that have had similar problems to those with Fords and Chevys.

[raisindot]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTexan

Yeah. That makes sense.

I understand that you're wanting to make a statement, and "put your money where your mouth is" so to speak.

I don't want to drag this thread into an environmantal debate, but think of it this way....

I know that we've got to start somewhere. And for you, maybe that somewhere is right here, right now, with this car. BUT...how much of a positive impact is this run of cars really going to have on the environment? It won't be until the average-joe can afford one (<$20k) that they will really catch on.

In the next year or so, negligible. Over the next 5-10 years, as the technology becomes more mainstream, and if American gashog producers start creating them, the hybrid SUV will transform the automotive landscape. The under $20,000 will never be the main demographic for these cars. As usual, the demo will be the middle-class car buyer who a) wants to make a "pro-environmental" statement to assuage their guilt over buying an SUV in the first place and b) who wants to live under the illusion that they will actually be saving money on gas over the long run. These people, who are already plunking down $30-$40 for luxury SUVs, will be all too happy to plunk down a few more K for the privilege.

Personally, I don't care what their motivation is; the more hybids on the road, the less dependent America will be on the Enrons and Saudis of the world. I predict that in 5 years every used car dealer in America will be overflowing with traded-in gas guzzler SUVs you'll be able to pick up for a song as people step up to hybrids.

Jeff in Boston

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by raisindot

In the next year or so, negligible. Over the next 5-10 years, as the technology becomes more mainstream, and if American gashog producers start creating them, the hybrid SUV will transform the automotive landscape. The under $20,000 will never be the main demographic for these cars. As usual, the demo will be the middle-class car buyer who a) wants to make a "pro-environmental" statement to assuage their guilt over buying an SUV in the first place and b) who wants to live under the illusion that they will actually be saving money on gas over the long run. These people, who are already plunking down $30-$40 for luxury SUVs, will be all too happy to plunk down a few more K for the privilege.

Personally, I don't care what their motivation is; the more hybids on the road, the less dependent America will be on the Enrons and Saudis of the world. I predict that in 5 years every used car dealer in America will be overflowing with traded-in gas guzzler SUVs you'll be able to pick up for a song as people step up to hybrids.

Jeff in Boston

Hey Jeff...I totally get what you're theorizing. But don't forget that different regions of the country have a totally different mindset that your area...

As usual, the demo will be the middle-class car buyer who a) wants to make a "pro-environmental" statement to assuage their guilt over buying an SUV in the first place

I'm sure most people in your area would agree with this. I'm equally as confident that not many people in this area of the country would agree with that at all. There are very, very, very few people around here that want to make a "pro-environmental statement" through their choice of vehicle. I'm sure that nobody feels guilty for buying/owning an SUV.

I'm certainly not saying that anyone is better than anyone else. It's just a cultural thing.

[stantheman]

Phi Beta Cheapo
That said, ALL my needs are handled with Jeep Cherokees w/ 4WD that are at least 10 years old
and cost between 1-2K (no Higher). The Mountains
are HECK on Vehicles - I see 4 year old off-shore
SUV's and they look 25 years old from "the wonderful
Mountain weather" (particularly the 6-7 months of the year where it SNOWS and the roads are "salted to taste"). If You're a flatlander COOL but if You live somewhere where the elements could kill Ya due to exposure I say "old and not abused Jeeps" are the way.
If it costs more than a "top shelf" new Solid Body Guitar I'm paying way too much.
Frugally Yours,
stantheman

[reverbbb]

I am relieved to declare, that I cancelled my appointment with the Toyota dealer yesterday. I weighed the economics of need vs. demand vs. effectiveness. I believe these vehicles are effective. I believe I have the need. I believe that there is a demand. But when I add up these parameters and compare the price vs. effectiveness, the forula falls apart. The price is misproportional to the effectiveness. There are low cost alternatives to obtain 40 mpg or lower the use of fuel (biking, bus, walking, car-pooling, HARLEY!!! ). I can buy the same Highlander vehicle without the hybrid technology (24 mpg) for only $24K.

The question continues to surface, "Why buy an SUV?". There are certainly smaller vehicles that will transport a Fender Twin Reverb and a Telecaster enven in a hard case. But I am often transporting several pieces of gear (namely an 88 key Kurzweil plus a rack mixer and stands, a Hammond XK-2, a Leslie 22, sometimes a Marshall head and 4x12, a bass and amp, and often two guitars). It is rare that I would carry all of these items at the same time, but it does happen. But at the minimum, I need to flexability to carry any of these configurations. The 88 key piano is definately a problem for most compact cars.

Additionally, as stated before, SUVs and trucks are still not depreciating at the rate of cars. If the day comes that I can get the same utility from a car and not see the rediculous depreciation rates (I'm not talking Lexus or BMW), then I might consider that option more strongly. But for now, there is nothing on the market that meets all the parameters of cargo space, fuel savings, holding it's value and compact size. The compact size and cargo space don't seem like compatible parameters. A small pickup does not offer much protection from the weather without a bed top, nor are the fuel effecient (yet).

Please understand that I appreciate all ths discussion and great perspectives. Paul has warned me in the past about making my posts a volitile "environmental discussion". I hope that I have steered away from this type of cyber debate. I request that we all continue to have a simple discussion about whether I should (or you would/would not) spend that type of money for a vehicle that promises green results.

[TheGoodTexan]