Soundman sabotage - Aiiiiiiiieeeee

[Bob Rogers]

Had to get this off my chest. I'm usually pretty good about cutting soundguys some slack, but yesterday's gig made me want to cut a few other things ... slowly ... with a dull knife.

Alice's band (I'm the music teacher/manager) opened Steppin' Out yesterday. Great day, beautiful weather. They had a big crowd. All their friends came out. One problem. The front of house sound guy butchered their vocals. :x Now I admit we aren't the easiest band to mix. Six piece. Two keyboard stations. Two lead singers, but everyone sings occasionally. And of course we were the opening act, so I guess we give the guy a chance to learn how to use the PA. Unfortunately, I was on stage during sound check helping to set up. Wrong place. The guy mixing the monitors knew what he was doing. The band sounded great on stage. Out front was close to a disaster. The worst problem was that the guy could not get any volume from Sydney's mic. Said she was singing too soft. I go to the stage and she sounds great on the monitor. I'm sure the problem is that he had so damn much compression/reverb/aural exciter crap inserted into her channel that he had just killed her channel. (Probably one of the units wasn't working right and he didn't discover it until later in the day.) After about six songs he had her up so her vocals were close to balanced with Alice's but this was after they had gone through their best harmony numbers (Day Tripper, Ticket to Ride, She Loves You). Syd has the higher voice and usually takes the melody so it was pretty bad.

Of course, most people don't notice much. We got a lot of compliments. And I think most of their best friends were right up next to the stage and heard a lot of the vocals from the monitors, so they probably heard a good show. One of the real frustrating things is that the PA was so good. The instruments sounded great. But all the vocals were over processed.

I feel like I should have done more to handle the situation and fix it. I was too concerned with helping the kids (they are all 14) work with the monitor guy. I didn't think that I'd need to worry about FOH as much. Live and learn I guess.

Anyway, sorry to rant. Just a little frustrated. This is their hometown crowd, and I feel like they gave a good performance and it didn't get out.

[Ben Harmless]

No slack need be cut there. If you're a sound man working a big festival, as I have been, you don't let the first act go on without a sound check. Sure, you've got a schedule to keep, but if you don't solve all your problems ahead of time, you're going to be solving them all day.

As a rule, you should start with zero effects and go from there. It may make the first song a little less that stellar sounding, but you don't run the risk of tripping over your own drive rack trying to fix everything you've screwed up at once. If you can perfect the vocals right then, then good. If not, prioritize. The audience doesn't care at that point, they're still adjusting to the music.

I've screwed up as a sound man, but it doesn't last long, and I apologize when it's warranted.

And for the record, the Snax shouldn't be that hard of a band to mix. I'll be they haven't developed the stage volume problems of your average modern-rock cover band yet.

Your rage is justified.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

And for the record, the Snax shouldn't be that hard of a band to mix. I'll be they haven't developed the stage volume problems of your average modern-rock cover band yet.

They all go through PODs direct to the board. As I say, at least they got that right. BTW we were there early. They checked the levels on each of the mics and instuments, but as I say, I was on stage encouraging them to work with the monitor guy to get the stage mix right. (Last year they played the same venue. It was there first time playing a big festival, and they didn't know to communicate with the monitor guy to get their levels adjusted to their tastes. So I concentrated on that.) After they had checked the levels, they had the kids chill until the scheduled show time.

[genelovesjez]

At this point, it's not going to make or break them so I would chalk it up to experience. Learning this stuff at the age of 14 is going to give these kids a big jump on most.

[lenny]

....
it's only rock and roll
:P !! hehe

[lenny]

Originally Posted by "Bob Rogers

I was on stage encouraging them to work with the monitor guy to get the stage mix right. (Last year they played the same venue. It was there first time playing a big festival, and they didn't know to communicate with the monitor guy to get their levels adjusted to their tastes. So I concentrated on that.) After they had checked the levels, they had the kids chill until the scheduled show time.

so now they can do that for themself, and if you're around you can stand and listen to the house mix. i agree that they have a great headstart and a great teacher with you, no matter what the house sounded like one time
..i got all corny again i hate when i do that

[Ben Harmless]

Some possible further thoughts:

Many of the acts I've provided sound for have gotten exactly that: me providing the sound - they provide the guy to run it. I'd say a good 50% of the national acts I've worked with have their own FOH engineer. If you aren't confident in your ability to do the mix yourself, I bet you could find someone you trust to do it for you. I've never taken offense to an act using their own engineer. Less responsibility that way.

I think you're in a good position to do this. Just specify who you want to mix for the band when you get the gig. I know you were pretty busy for this one, but it might save some aggrivation in the future.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

They all go through PODs direct to the board.

Oh VOMIT.

I'd like to pass a law banning the Pod.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by petebradt

I'd like to pass a law banning the Pod.

Well, as a testament in their favor, the PODs were the only thing in the show that sounded good on every song.

I know I've said this before, but let me give my take on this issue.

First, I feel strongest about the general idea of working on crafting a good line level signal and sending it to the board. There are lots of ways to do this besides the POD. I think direct injection is a great basis for a good mix for the FOH. Stage sound may not be as good as with tube amps, but (old saying) ain't no paying customers on stage. A clean single-instrument signal makes it easy (even for an amateur like me) to mix a good show.

Second, I have (so far) used PODs exclusively because I don't want to try to learn to use a bunch of different pieces of equipment. As far as I can tell, none of these units are plug-and-play. They require a lot of work and tweaking. Settings that work at low volume don't work at high volume. (Just like a tube amp!) It’s better for me to learn one unit well then four units badly.

After a good bit of work, I have been able to get some very good sounds. I would put Sam's bass against anyone at the festival going for an old school sound. The settings we have worked out for Alice's Ric 12 are great. Intro to "Hard Day's Night" gives the kids instant credibility. Now I'll have to admit that I am still searching for the ideal set of tones for the teles. Some guys had better tones with a miced tube amp. Some guys had worse. (Of course, a lot of them are just better players. No knock against the kids. They know how much work they have to do.) Alice uses a couple of Matchless settings (one clean one distorted) and I HiWatt setting for highly distorted. Nick uses a couple of versions of the Vox settings (tweaks of their Day Tripper settings) for clean and Marshall settings for distorted. (I usually use a Fender Deluxe setting when hacking around.) Still lots of work to do to improve the tone with the tools I have. I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep.

We all have different ways of trying to put on a good performance. I think the PODs helps us do that. Unless I find some thing better, I’ll keep with it.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

Many of the acts I've provided sound for have gotten exactly that: me providing the sound - they provide the guy to run it. I'd say a good 50% of the national acts I've worked with have their own FOH engineer. If you aren't confident in your ability to do the mix yourself, I bet you could find someone you trust to do it for you. I've never taken offense to an act using their own engineer. Less responsibility that way.

I think you're in a good position to do this. Just specify who you want to mix for the band when you get the gig. I know you were pretty busy for this one, but it might save some aggrivation in the future.

I've thought about this a lot. At a very basic level it is a very good idea. The three guy in the band do a few vocal stints per set. It makes sense to keep their mics down most of the time, but you have to turn them up when their time comes and I'm about the only one who knows their cues. (We did Baba O'Reiley. The drummer sings the "Don't Cry ..." line. Completely turned off.)

If that was the only problem, I'd be pushing myself forward. Problem is that the worst troubles (this gig and others where there have beem problems) have been (at least as far as I can figure) with too many effects pushed into the vocals. Now I mix the kids with an A&H 16 channel MixWiz, and a DBX dual EQ, and a couple of FMR RNC compressors (which I usually don't use live.) These guys are using a 32 channel Channel Soundcraft mixer and a rack of effects that I am totally unfamiliar with. I'm sort of in the position of coming in and saying "I don't know this !@#$ turn it off and let me have at it.

I guess my point is that someone good only needs me to help them with cues. I'm, happy to push faders. If someone has a complicated mixer set up wrong, I can't really be a help. (And they wouldn't really accept the the help (PULL ALL THE DAMNED INSERTS) that I'd be inclined to give.)

[Oskar]

is that they have gotten it right 40% of the time, and I'm being generous. I've talked with other bands who feel the same. The main complaint? Too damn loud. We played one gig where the monitors were so loud we couldn't hear ourselves. The sound guy did turn it down... for about 3 numbers and then cranked it back up. The attitude is generally that
1. We don't know what we're talking about
2. We don't have the technical savvy to understand sound.
3. We're prima donnas.
We always try to control our own sound when we can. Unfortunately on the bigger gigs we don't have any choice.