Microphones for mandolin (live)

[scooteraz]

I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I put it here in the general off-topic thread. If the mods think it should be moved, I'm cool with that.

So, again this year, I need to mic my mandolin. The church doesn't have a mic that really matches what I need to do (a lot of SM58s and equivalents). I think I would like to get a small end address (pencil type) condenser mic. I would LOVE to have a Neumann KM184 (or Earthworks SR30, P30/C), but those are not in the appropriate price bracket. I have had suggestions from potential vendors of whosit Chinese microphones up through "just bit the bullet and get the (insert expensive brand here)".

Anybody here had good or back luck with AKG, Rode, Violet, Charter Oak, Mojave, Chameleon or Peluso (the brands that I have run into and heard of before)? My primary purpose will be to mic mando, occasionally guitar or other string or potentially brass instrument for church, secondary would be for home recording. Just looking for some help here with folks that do not have a vested interest in what I buy.

I'm looking for suggestions here.

[Dave Hicks]

If you don't get a good answer here, you might want to post at the Mandolin Cafe.

D.H.

[Tim Armstrong]

We've gotten very nice results with the MXL 603, and I'd look at the 604, which has some nice options (10db pad, switchable low frequency roll off, comes with both cardiod and omni capsules) for under a hundred bucks.

Tim

[cowboytwang]

Right now my favorite mando mic is the Shure KSM-137. I actually like it better than the Neumann KM184, and it's about 1/4 the price. One of my all time favorite mandolin microphones was the old Shure BG4.1, long discontinued, but sometimes you can find used ones for about $50-$75. I absolutely SWEAR that it will kill any cheep China made mic, in fact for me personally, I would total stay away from those if you want a nice sounding mic that will last.

[Tim Armstrong]

Alvin, I've gotten five years of good use/abuse out of the MXL I mentioned above, and it doesn't sound good, it sounds damned good!

Tim

[brokenjoe]

I use an AKG C100S for live acoustic instruments; specifically banjo, and guitar. It's a great sounding mic -nice and flat, and very reliable. Comes with a polar pattern converter for versatility.

[JosephB]

a bit on the expensive side, but AKG 414 is great for a lot of acoustic instruments...from guitar all the way up to upright bass...very true to the acoustic sound.

[Mike Bruce]

I've used my MXL shotgun mic with good results on mandolin and other instruments, but usually I'm too lazy to pack too much and use my Sennheiser e865 which usually get vocal use but sounds great for mandolin and banjo.

Not all Sennheisers are pricey.

Peace, Mike.

[cowboytwang]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Alvin, I've gotten five years of good use/abuse out of the MXL I mentioned above, and it doesn't sound good, it sounds damned good!

Tim

For the price, yes they are a fine mic. I can't even use one on most of the gigs I do. Many of the bigger acts I work with send us riders with gear they prefer to use and won't use. Behringer gear and MXL mics are almost ALWAYS on the list of unacceptable gear for a "Pro" sound company.

When you compare sound quality of an $80 mic to a $800 Neumann, there is a BIG deference. However when you compare a $200 or $300 Shure, AKG, Rode, AT, or Audix.... with the $800 Neumann, the price of the Neumann just isn't justified. For some there may not be enough noticeable difference between the $80 MXL and the $200 Shure....., for me, I hear the difference and chose to go with the $200 mic.
and if I can find a nice used Shure BG4.1 for $75, then I'm getting that one before any, especially for mandolin.

Also, YES, I'm am a mic snob and have close to 40 mics from vintage tube mics to RCA Ribbons, and I do hear the difference! And for full disclosure, I do have one MXL mic, and I like it for what it does.

[Wardpike]

Shure's SM98 is another solid performer, as is the AKG C451 and C460... and if wind becomes a problem, the 515 is another great AKG Condenser.

Expect to pay anywhere from $300 to $500 to get something of real quality that will last you a lifetime.

Cheers,.

Ward

[scooteraz]

Thanks guys for the input.

I browsed at the Mandolin Cafe, and saw what folks were using there.

A couple of the bluegrass bands around here like the 414's but they are using them for almost everything, (3 mics on stage, a pair of 414's for vocals and most of the instruments, and a small clip on mic for the bass). It is a bit spendy, but the local GC really really seems to want to get rid of theirs. But, since this will not double as a vocal mic, I think I want a small condenser.

BTW, KM 184s are no longer $800, they are now street priced most places that I've found at $900, microphone alone. Right now, unless I find a smoking deal somewhere, I am leaning towards an AKG 451B or a Rode NT55. Both are in the $300-$500 bracket, and available. I look at mics (and, well most everything I buy) sort of like I look at hand tools, I have had great luck with Craftsman and Snapon, Chinese tools are spotty; some are great and give good service, some are crap (even from the same brand). I don't want to go Snapon pricing, but I will pay Craftsman for the security of a consistently reliable product. I guess that is why I am shy about things like the MXL and the Octava microphones, some folks seem to have great service out of them (like Tim), and others seem to have had crappy service out of them.

Thanks again for the input.

[aegert]

The buck stops here!

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/pro...118&item=24346




I show the violin mount only because I think it will transfer well... It will mount on any bout...

They have 1000 ways to mount these..

There is nothing better period for performance!

Here is a low sensitivity version used on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DPA-Microphones-...item3a555cab92

its cousin the 4060, the standalone mice pictured above with out mount, shows up there all the time at the same price.. You could tape it to the bridge and be done with it.. put a wind screen on it..

It is a condenser . You might need to get a phantom power adapter to PA or run it to a pre on your strap...

It will knock your socks off. this is what they use everywhere professionally. I have mounted on inside an acoustic guitar... you have no idea!



A

[rdchapman]

I have used both on-board and free standing mikes for my mandolin for years. I prefer the free standing trype as I can work the volume of the instrument against the band better and you don't pick up mechanical noise (like strap or rubbing against the instrument noises) that way. I like to use a condenser, but have found that they can be a bit sensitive in some conditions. The 3 I have come to use as "go to" mikes for my acoustic instruments for stage are AKG C535 Eb condenser and an Electro-Voice N/D367 in current production. The Ev is kind of a second choice to an old Peavey PVM 380N I have that just seems to be great for this job. It is a vocal mike that I never liked for vocals, but has found a place in my mike closet.

[Califiddler]

In my bluegrass band, we just used SM58's for vocals and SM57's for instruments. I played both my guitar and mandolin into a 57 and it worked fine.

I have never used one, but I have heard that the AKG C1000S is good for stage use. It's $279 at MF.

[Ben Harmless]

If you're looking in the pricerange of a 451, I also strongly recommend that you check out a Shure SM81. It's a personal preference thing, but I often dig it over the 451 on stringed instruments. I find the tone to be a little flatter and less hyped - though that hype on the 451 can be really sweet on some sources.

For a little less, the Shure Beta 57a is a contender. A friend of mine recently started using one on his mando, and is very happy. For a dynamic mic, the Beta 57a is actually darn good at strings - including guitars. It can be hit-or-miss on other things though.

Lastly, I absolutely do not mean to insult or offend, but I cannot recommend strongly enough that you avoid the AKG C1000 mics. They tend toward harshness and I've heard them turn nice fiddles into screechy messes. I'd take the MXL 603 over them in a heartbeat.

[Paul in Colorado]

+1 on avoiding the AKG C1000 mics.

Shure SM 81 is what we used in my touring days for the mando player in the band I did sound for. We used Neuman KM-84's on the guitar and violin, but the 81 worked beautifully for the mando and mandola (both 1920's era Gibsons).

I think David Grisman is using an Audix SCX-25 (the lollipop mic).

[rdchapman]

I use an SM81 for guitars, mandolin etc in my studio and really like the sound, but never took it out in the wild, so to speak. I thought it might be a bit fragile or over sensitive for that application. But as others have used it live, it seems it would be a good choice, for sure.

[Califiddler]

Does it make any difference if it's an A-style mandolin with the oval soundhole or an F-style with the F-holes? Those two types can sound pretty different.

[brokenjoe]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

Lastly, I absolutely do not mean to insult or offend, but I cannot recommend strongly enough that you avoid the AKG C1000 mics. They tend toward harshness and I've heard them turn nice fiddles into screechy messes. I'd take the MXL 603 over them in a heartbeat.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then Ben. I've used mine for years now (bluegrass style) on acoustic instruments, and have had nothing but positive experiences. One of the fellows I play with is a recording engineer, and he loves the sound of that mic.

go figure.

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by aegert

I show the violin mount only because I think it will transfer well... It will mount on any bout...

They have 1000 ways to mount these..

There is nothing better period for performance!



A

Well, I thought about this, and pulled out my mandolin and played a bit, and could not think of a place to put the mic where I wouldn't be bumping into it. I liked the idea, but, a mando, being strummed in front of the body is a bit different from a violin that is usually anchored at the chin. Or, maybe I'm just naturally clumsy...

[Tim Bowen]

There's no doubt that a quality microphone best reproduces the "acoustic" qualities of an instrument. That's the only approach for the studio. If you're in the position to fully ensure that your FOH sound and onstage monitor mix is properly and consistently maintained by a tech - with nothing other than an instrument and a microphone - that's fabulous, my hat is off to you.

Having played "electric-acoustic" instruments every week of my life in a variety of scenarios since the early 90's, my opinion is that it's a crapshoot at best. I play clubs and bars and festivals all the time; rock, country, pop, blues, Americana, whatever. Over the weekend's gigs, I listened to the laments of several (bluegrass) musicians in attendance as to the anemic ways in which their acoustic guitars and mandolins were treated by house techs at their recent gigs. My heart went out to them, but they really don't want to hear what I have to say.

That is, the only way to ensure absolute control of volume and tone is from the bandstand itself. It's beautiful when acoustic musicians can step into and away from a single mic' in the grand bluegrass tradition to get natural dynamics, but can you count upon this happening? How about if you play mandolin with a full rhythm section, and how about if the the tech in question is only familiar with dialing up rock and hiphop acts?

As for the six live sets I played over the weekend, I reproduced my Michael Kelly mandolin in the usual way: the instruments's onboard Fishman preamp, as combined with a high quality DI and booster with musically voiced EQ, through the PA. I've encountered some really great onstage and FOH sounds via mic's, and when it's great, it's the very best. However, at this point, I'm as dependent upon such to happen as I am winning millions via the lottery - in other words, it doesn't happen as often as it does.

I've heard so many horrible mandolin, banjo, doghouse bass, dobro, violin, and "acoustic" guitar live tones over the years - and while it's true that microphone choice and the experience of the tech(s) at hand are major players within the equation, it's equally true that only the working player in the trenches is ultimately responsible for his or her presentation. I'm not into second guessing and double dutching all that nonsense anymore. The ability to boost and cut from the bandstand is the only M.O. that I can stand behind at this point.

Peace.

[Tim Armstrong]

Amen, Tim!

The Other Tim

[aegert]

Originally Posted by scooteraz

Well, I thought about this, and pulled out my mandolin and played a bit, and could not think of a place to put the mic where I wouldn't be bumping into it. I liked the idea, but, a mando, being strummed in front of the body is a bit different from a violin that is usually anchored at the chin. Or, maybe I'm just naturally clumsy...

This mic can be run inside the instrument or be mounte on the bridge. There are archival adhesive mounts that can put it behind the bridge on the lower bout or anywhere for that matter pointing at the bridge.. These are used for mandoline and guitar all the time.. Call DPA customer support.

There is an allure to pulling in and playing to a mounted mic I get thet. But this is freeing. There is a pre you could get that is wired or wireless and it free's you to move..

This is an industry standard mic that is also taped invisably to a broadway performers face .. Believe me when I tell you you can get it on efficiantly to your axe..

there are very good replacement Pizo saddles as well. Blending these 2 is just heaven

I %$#* you not

A