Something for you soundmen and gigging musicians.

[vjf1968]

In an attempt to increase better realtions between soundmen and guitarists please give you opinions on this article,

http://www.myrareguitars.com/tooloud.html

[Big John]

Well there are PITA soundmen just as there are PITA guitar players but as both depend on the other for work it seems a whole lot easier to just get along don't it ?

[JCSouthpawtele]

I don't wear sweatpants, I don't even own one pair. So don't generalize the soundguy as the lazy slob of a grunt you see in most clubs. I play guitar and know how to politely ask a fellow guitar player to step out in front of the PA to see if I have enough guitar in the mix. Then when I see them ask for more I tell them turn down the amp and I can then get a balance. Ego is stroked.

[Ben Harmless]

Sorry, I couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs. The article is moronic.

First, I very, very rarely ask anyone to turn down their guitar. When I do, it's because they are absolutely burying the rest of the band.

Second, refusing to do so is going to make you look like a moron, because your band is never going to be anything but a horrible wall of guitar. Any idiot like this guy who is "trying to play a little too loud" is only screwing his or her bandmates.

Guitar players, by and large, with some exceptions, have the IQ of a single used running shoe. It's simply incomprehensible to me that they think that it's a good idea to try and balance their relative volume while their 100w combo is pointing at their ankles. This is oooooold news. It's. Not. Going. To. Work.

But fine. You think you know more than the guy who's spent more than a decade of his life working with hundreds of bands and artists at practically every level? (and I'm a relative newcomer) Go for it. You've obviously figured out something in your garage that gives you insight into getting the perfect mix in my venue. By all means, enlighten me. Just don't be surprised when that recording I'm making of you for broadcast never airs because it's all guitar in every mic.

Now, all that being said, there are some terrible soundmen out there. I went to a show once where the team of flunkies behind the board kept telling the guitar player to turn down so much that he could hear me talking to him at medium conversational volume. I see this in a whole lot of clubs too. Does that mean that you should go ahead and crank your amp, because obviously the soundman is an idiot? Good luck with that approach. Trust me when I say that this technique is why you keep jumping from band to band without ever going anywhere. It's not "creative differences," it's your stance that your guitar is the only important thing on stage.

[JPW2105]

I would hate to be in a band with the guy who wrote that (mind you, I didn't get past the second paragraph). He has an unbearable ego and considers it his right to play too loud. I thought it was all about playing together..?

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Ben Harmless

Guitar players, by and large, with some exceptions, have the IQ of a single used running shoe.

Yep.

And, to be fair, I've run into more than one or two sound guys who think a mix oughta be all drums, all the time, or who don't quite understand the PURPOSE of a monitor mix is to allow us to hear EACH OTHER as well as we hear ourselves. But that's a whole different thread!

Tim

[Moonrider]

Speaking as a guitar player, I don't think the guy has a clue. Speaking as an occasional sound guy, it's obvious "Joey" has never spent a minute at FOH and has no concept of what makes a good mix.

As evidence, I introduce the following:

First:

And when I say turn down I don't mean a smidge I mean to where they are happy (yeah right) and we sound like we are coming out of an AM radio. This whole concept of low volume from your amp and "I will make you big out front" is a joke. You can only amplify the sound coming from the amp and if it sounds thin?

Translation: I haven't learned to use my EQ knobs and don't intend to any time soon.

Next:

Now I know when there are exceptions, like the time I saw a very famous multi guitar band from the 70's play Madison Square Garden and they were all playing blackface Deluxe Reverbs, and the bass player was using a silver face Bassman. And they sounded awesome

If you had been on stage, you probably would have noticed they could talk to each other without yelling too. Just like my band. Bet ya can't guess why it didn't sound "like an AM radio" (Hint: it had very little to do with the amps)

Finally:

you must remember monitors are not voiced for guitar

Well, Duh! Most decent PA speakers are intended to accurately reproduce ALL audible frequencies without "coloration", not just the limited range a guitar produces. Same thing for the mains. Here's a clue for ya dude: If you sound like garbage through the monitors, YOU sound like garbage. Adjust your mike to a better position, or adjust your EQ on the amp.

[stevesz]

this is always a tough one, even in the recording studio where I do most of my work.

For the guitar player (any instrumentalist for that matter) it's about hearing themselves so they can express exactly what they want to express the way they want to express it. For the sound guy it's about being able to balance everything properly for the room and there's no volume knob on the drums. Then you throw in the alchemy of what the room is doing to the sound on any given night and by the nature of the beast you're bound for an argument.

When I do live sound in small clubs, and I don't do much, I take the approach of reinforcing and enhancing what's coming from the stage and working up from there. I think too many of the live sound guys I've run into think of the sound system like a recording console and they want it quiet up there so all anybody hears is the P.A. That's not a whole-brained approach.

Issues aside, the guy who wrote the article is kind of a d-bag. If you go in with a contentious attitude to begin with (guitar player or sound guy) you're gonna get what you expect, a struggle.

[Donnie55]

I hate going after Ben........
But he really covered it. I am a professional engineer I have worked with most of the biggest sound /production companies in this country. I done FOH for some of the biggest bands in this country. I have never asked any guitar player to turn down. Go tell Henry Paul from the Outlaws to turn down, see what that gets ya. I promise it wouldnt happen again. I have worked with tons of Southern Rock bands most having three guitar players. Your going to have instant volume war. As a real engineer you better know how to deal with it.
It seems to me he has only done little S..T hole places. And if think your going to get a qualified engineer with a decent system in one those places,, all I can say is its rare. I am also a guitar player professionally , meaning it makes up a part of my income. Granted the bands I play with are not of the caliber of bands I have mixed. I use a Fender Princeton all most everywhere we play.I never have coloration issues from monitors I also have in ears. And we sound fat. . But then again our engineer understands how use an EQ......Sorry for my tirade, but that moron struck a nerve in me........thats all i got.......

[vjf1968]

Well some food for thought.

And honestly, Mr Leone's ego is as big as his girth. I have seen performance footage of him too, believe me he should keep his mouth shut.

Just for clarification I am one of those guitarists that believes that the BAND has to sound good and it is not about one particular member or instrument. It was one of the reasons I have lower wattage amps and it is also why I make it a point to confer with the soundman before and after sound checks to correct any balance/volume problems. It also helps that the bass player in my band has experience in doing sound and his brother runs a company that specializes in running sound for concerts and events.

However, I have been in a lot of situations were the person running sound should not be allowed near a boom-box let alone a PA system. For years one of the bands I was in we always dreaded playing one club in Philly becuase the person running sound would always make sure that the drummer's kick drum always sounded like Lars Ulrich's (we were a 60's garage type band, think The Fuzztones or The Lyres). We would try in vain to explain to this person that we wanted more "thud" then a "tick". But in the end we ended up sounded like a heavy metal band in the drum department. Another venue had a soundman that could not accept that there was more than one vocalists in the band. Even when provided with a set-list with markings showing who was singing one a particular song, said mic was either buried or not turned on.

The times I have played venues where the sound was handled by a pro have been the best experiences playing music and they were mostly out of town dates. A good soundman is essential for great gig. Its just in my neck of the woods there are few

[Donnie55]

Originally Posted by vjf1968

Well some food for thought.

And honestly, Mr Leone's ego is as big as his girth.

Just for clarification I am one of those guitarists that believes that the BAND has to sound good and it is not about one particular member or instrument. It was one of the reasons I have lower wattage amps and it is also why I make it a point to confer with the soundman before and after sound checks to correct any balance/volume problems. It also helps that the bass player in my band has experience in doing sound and his brother runs a company that specializes n running sound for cencerts and events.

However, I have been in a lot of situations were the person running sound should not be allowed near a boom-box let alone a PA system. For years one of the bands I was in we always dreaded playing one club in Philly becuase the person running sound would always make sure that the drummer's kick drum always sounded like Lars Ulrich's (we were a 60's garage type band, think The Fuzztones or The Lyres). We would try in vain to explain to this person that we wanted more "thud" then a "tick". But in the end we ended up sounded like a heavy metal band in the drum department. Another venue had a soundman that could not accept that there was more than one vocalists in the band. Even when provided with a set-list with markings showing who was singing one a particular song, said mic was either buried or not turned on.

The times I have played venues where the sound was handled by a pro have been the best experiences playing music and they were mostly out of town dates. A good soundman is essential for great gig. Its just in my neck of the woods there are few

This I totally understand. As much as I hate to admit it I was doing sound before they were using massive subs in systems. And every since they have incorporated them into every system out today. It seems to be the benchmark for every bad engineer out there.. Its like, man your mix sounds like dookie...answer...yea but listen to that kick drum. Drum mixes are a huge part of the mix. I base everything around the drum mix. Different styles of music do require a different approach to the drum mix. And these guys out there that think a kick drum makes a mix are a disgrace to all the good engineers out there..

[Tim Armstrong]

Ah, but I HAVE very occasionally been in a small-to-mid-sized venue where some meathead fires up a grossly overpowered amp to livestock-sterilizing levels (while insisting on having it mic-ed up too!), drowning out the rest of the band (who turn up/hit harder to compensate) and making it impossible for the singer to hear himself. Of course, they then all complain about the monitors!

The funniest was when one band like this recorded a soundboard feed and the guitarist went ballistic because he wasn't in the mix! The sound guy had turned his mic off because there wasn't any reason to put his guitar into the mains, it was already considerably louder than the entire rest of the band...

Tim

[Joefish]

Respectfully, I think most of us would like to have problems with sound men … that would mean we were playing out!

[vjf1968]

I think the problem with musicians in this department is inexperience and (in Leone's case) ego. Some get wise to the fact that it is not about one person but the whole band. Unfortunately some never learn and the tug of war between musician and soundman starts.

The relationship between the two should never be adversarial because the audience suffers the most.

[vjf1968]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Ah, but I HAVE very occasionally been in a small-to-mid-sized venue where some meathead fires up a grossly overpowered amp to livestock-sterilizing levels (while insisting on having it mic-ed up too!), drowning out the rest of the band (who turn up/hit harder to compensate) and making it impossible for the singer to hear himself. Of course, they then all complain about the monitors!

The funniest was when one band like this recorded a soundboard feed and the guitarist went ballistic because he wasn't in the mix! The sound guy had turned his mic off because there wasn't any reason to put his guitar into the mains, it was already considerably louder than the entire rest of the band...

Tim

We had organ player like that. He played a Vox Continental going through a Yamaha amp that was their version of a Leslie (it was also of a hernia inducing heft). Whether it was in the studio or live all you heard apart from the drums was him and his organ.

After a gig people would come up to me and tell me that we were great but they wished that they could HEAR THE GUITAR.

[ADK Teleman]

I just went on youtube and saw Joey play...yeah...enought said...if you make people deaf...then no one can say you aren't good!