Banking problem - advice needed

[The Bone]

Pretty simple scenario. We bank with Bank A. We pay our mortgage by using an automatic on-line bill pay, where Bank A debits our account and send the mortgage payment to our Mortage Bank (Bank B). Bank A has debited our account, but Bank B says that they have not received the payment from Bank A. Bank A says that there is no tracking mechanism other than our personal bank statment to show Bank B that they sent the mortgage payment. Bank B says this is not sufficient for Bank A to prove that they paid Bank B. Ever heard of this one?

[StuH]

Bank A offers you a service. You shouldn't be the middleman between Bank A and Bank B. Bank A should be doing your bidding.

[StuH]

TIme to transfer your mortage, and accounts to bank C

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by The Bone

Pretty simple scenario. We bank with Bank A. We pay our mortgage by using an automatic on-line bill pay, where Bank A debits our account and send the mortgage payment to our Mortgage Bank (Bank B). Bank A has debited our account, but Bank B says that they have not received the payment from Bank A. Bank A says that there is no tracking mechanism other than our personal bank statment to show Bank B that they sent the mortgage payment. Bank B says this is not sufficient for Bank A to prove that they paid Bank B. Ever heard of this one?

Bank B will try to do everything they can to screw you going on the premise that you will become frustrated with their red tape and do nothing incurring all types of penalties that eventually you will pay. They probably won't even put you through to the correct dept.

You're going to have to Lawyer up for them to take you seriously, have him write a letter on your behalf and as part of the letter include a statement that any legal fees will be their responsibility.

It should be an attorney that does property closings.

Keep meticulous records of all statements, correspondences, plus the names dates and times of everybody you speak with at Bank A, Bank B, and the Mortgage assignee management company doing the back office.

Good Luck

[getbent]

Originally Posted by StuH

TIme to transfer your mortage, and accounts to bank C

easier said than done these days especially in california.

Bone, you might want to set up a face to face with the branch manager. be cordial and respectful and prepared to move your accounts.

we left the big banks awhile back and found a local bank that knows us on sight (a good thing) and is very customer centered. When they get bought (they all do) we'll switch again to another local bank.

[HOBBSTER01]

Simple.
Print your online bill pay statement and fax it to your mortgage holder/bank.
And yes Virginia, there is a trace anytime funds are electronically transferred.
Secondly, you should be able to prove funds were debited from your acct.
Sounds like the problem is bank B posting funds to the wrong acct. or bank A not sending said funds.

[mistermullens]

Bone, sounds like you're using Online Bill Pay from BankA.com. First thing you should check is if BankA is sending your Mortgage Payment electronically to BankB. If so, your Online Bill Payment should be guaranteed. If for whatever reason, BankB doesn't accept electronic bill payment, BankA would have to send out an Official (Bank) Check on your behalf. This would not be guaranteed because BankA is relying on the post office to get it to BankB.

You should always know someone at the bank. Its a personal connection with a banker that will get them working for you. Even if you don't carry large balances, they know you and would hopefully go to bat for you.

P.S. It should be very easy to show that funds were debited from your account.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I dunno, Hobbster. Technically, you're absolutely right, but I'd go with Groovey's rec on this one. Bank B sounds beyond redemption. I'd want a lawyer sooner rather than later - as Groovey says, one with solid real estate experience.

Bank A sounds fine, like it's just doing its job. Bank B is a land shark. Lost a transfer? Either they're smart crooks or honest idiots. Either way, watch out.

[Post Toastie]

Since Bank A debited your account, they sent the funds somewhere. You need bank A to confirm where somewhere is?
Is this the first month you used the electronic transfer or have you been using it for a while?if it is the first month then maybe the transfer/routing # was incorrect?

[The Bone]

This exact transaction has been done successfully numerous times. This is the first time we have had a glitch. BankA is sending a copy of our bank statement showing that they debited our account, but they are claiming that there is no "transaction number" to give their payee, Bank B.

[Joe-Bob]

Originally Posted by The Bone

...they are claiming that there is no "transaction number" to give their payee, Bank B.

Tell them you don't believe them. If they ask what do you mean?, tell them they are lying and that you both know it. Banks don't wire money back and forth with no records of the transaction.

Also, get a lawyer, make sure Bank A knows they are paying for it.

[Ricky D.]

Hey Bone-

This is courtesy of Mrs. D. and her 30+ years in banking.

Bank A has to be able to prove they sent the money as you directed, or they have to restore the money to your account. There is no third alternative. You need to escalate this with Bank A. Tell them to trace the transfer because the funds did not arrive. This will be a routine execise once you get to the right person.

For best results, climb the ladder in an orderly way. Keep notes of each conversation with date, time, name, and a brief content summary. If you are blocked, ask for that person's supervisor. Resist the temptation to call the president of the bank, just take it one level at a time. .

All this runs through the Federal Reserve and is very tightly defined and regulated.

If Bank A proves that they sent the money, you must confront Bank B with that proof. Then they have to trace it.

Once you get the right person at Bank A, this will be over very quickly.

[Wardpike]

it does sound like time to change everything to one bank.

[kelnet]

Every item on my statement has a reference number. Every automatic loan payment (and we have several) has a reference number.
Your Bank B should be able to accept the statement and the reference number as proof of payment.

[brewwagon]

dearest bone:

hi this is your accounts manager from bank A
i'm having a wonderful time here in lagos this is the view from our beach front hotel room
oh i'm sorry about your payments the money sure is coming in handy

see you at the bank when i get back
we'll have some free coffee with powdered creamer and a stale cookie for you thanks


ps i hope this virtual post card cheers you up somewhat


bw

[Ricky D.]

Originally Posted by kelnet

Every item on my statement has a reference number. Every automatic loan payment (and we have several) has a reference number.
Your Bank B should be able to accept the statement and the reference number as proof of payment.

EFT's are transmitted by the Federal Reserve. Bone's botched EFT is fully documented there. That information is accessible to the originating bank, Bank A. Bank A is obliged to prove that the EFT was made correctly in order to charge Bone's account. Bank A can do that by tracing the EFT, using their information about their initiation of the transfer.

This transaction is a needle in the haystack for Bank B. Bank A's reference number is probably meaningless to Bank B. Bank B will not acknowledge receipt of the EFT until it can identify the transaction in its system where the money was credited to them by the Federal Reserve. If Bank A traces the EFT to Bank B, Bank A will have the indentifying information Bank B needs in order to find the money.

[bossaholic]

There is a paper trail and both banks know it.

walk into your bank, and demand service. Demand they take care of this immediately. If they don't, start the process of changing banks (preferably to a credit union).

I just don't believe they can't find your payment. Something fishy is going on, or someone at the bank is extremely lazy.

[The Bone]

a tracking number for the EFT transaction. What I don't understand is why is Bank A so unwilling to admit that there is one. They claim that there is no way to track the payment other than our statement showing they debited the money from our account. Thanks for all your help, folks. I'll let you know the outcome.

[charlie cash]

Bone,
Rickey D's comments are the way to proceed. Mrs. Cash is also a banker. The one thing I would add is that you go into Bank A personally, if possible, rather than communicating strictly by phone or email. It may be inconvenient, but it helps get things resolved.

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Ricky D.

Hey Bone-

This is courtesy of Mrs. D. and her 30+ years in banking.

Bank A has to be able to prove they sent the money as you directed, or they have to restore the money to your account. There is no third alternative. You need to escalate this with Bank A. Tell them to trace the transfer because the funds did not arrive. This will be a routine execise once you get to the right person.

For best results, climb the ladder in an orderly way. Keep notes of each conversation with date, time, name, and a brief content summary. If you are blocked, ask for that person's supervisor. Resist the temptation to call the president of the bank, just take it one level at a time. .

All this runs through the Federal Reserve and is very tightly defined and regulated.

If Bank A proves that they sent the money, you must confront Bank B with that proof. Then they have to trace it.

Once you get the right person at Bank A, this will be over very quickly.

This, in my experience is correct and very good advice. Since you are a customer there, it should give you some leverage. Good luck.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Wardpike

it does sound like time to change everything to one bank.

I don't know about Bone, but that would be impossible for me. With a lot of mortgage arrangements, the buyer doesn't have a choice of lender. The Maine State Housing Authority directed to one lender, take it or leave it. My bank only does banking, my mortgage company only does mortgages, and I can't swap mortgage companies. Just the way it is.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by charlie cash

Bone,
Rickey D's comments are the way to proceed. Mrs. Cash is also a banker. The one thing I would add is that you go into Bank A personally, if possible, rather than communicating strictly by phone or email. It may be inconvenient, but it helps get things resolved.

Right. But I'd be ready with a lawyer, anyway. Bank B will nail your hide to the shed, Ned.

[The Bone]

the bank branch personnel are saying that they have nothing to do with it, that it is a "online billpay" department issue, and when we get those folks on the phone, they are not very helpful at all....

[getbent]

Bone,
So sorry to hear that. We had this very same problem this summer (and we wire money fairly frequently) so I'm really used to getting the routing number and all the other info....

It will be pretty difficult for bank B to find where the payment went without that info...

One ray of hope... our mortgage payment got hosed during the summer and we kept talking to them and working on both sides... it took about 2 weeks, but we didn't have to pay any penalties and we didn't have any 'black marks' or whatever.

My wife and I joked that if we had ended up with a 'late payment' then we'd qualify to refinance our house and get better terms....

We really live in the most insane time ever.... if you pay your bills... you're screwed, if you don't, you're not.....

Good luck amigo, I'm rooting for you... before you scream at anyone, call me, scream at me, I have found that calm and considerate works a lot better than losing it...

[The Bone]

my wife just called. She said the bank manager has come up with the "tracking number" and is calling B of A.

[fuzz1812]

I am a former retail banker. You have very specific rights as a US citizen, provided by the US banking regulatory system.

Here is a page that details many of those rights:

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/rights/

Sounds like you've tried to do the right thing - so now it's time to call in the big dogs. Go to the section at the bottom of the page called "Complaints." You see the top two are the Federal Reserve and the FDIC.

Write a letter to each with as much detail as you can include. I would list names of the people that you talked to if you have them.

The Fed and the FDIC will take action. They'll send a letter to the banks, and the banks are required to report their findings, in writing, within 30 days.

Take it from me - if you are a senior bank executive, those letters move to the front of your "To Do List."

[The Bone]

The piece of information that the mortgage bank is requesting is called "Source of Receipt". My bank is saying that there is no such thing on an Electronic Funds Transfer.

[brillocaster]

fuzz and Ricky D. are right.

Bank A is jerking your chain.

I had a credit union do this to me once. They were not interested in helping me. It was not a good decision to do it to someone who dealt in wires all day and thus knew how the system worked and whose boss was a Board member of said credit union.

[Ricky D.]

Originally Posted by fuzz1812

I am a former retail banker. You have very specific rights as a US citizen, provided by the US banking regulatory system.

Here is a page that details many of those rights:

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/rights/

Sounds like you've tried to do the right thing - so now it's time to call in the big dogs. Go to the section at the bottom of the page called "Complaints." You see the top two are the Federal Reserve and the FDIC.

Write a letter to each with as much detail as you can include. I would list names of the people that you talked to if you have them.

The Fed and the FDIC will take action. They'll send a letter to the banks, and the banks are required to report their findings, in writing, within 30 days.

Take it from me - if you are a senior bank executive, those letters move to the front of your "To Do List."

+1

Those are the thermonuclear weapons of consumer protection in banking. And it sounds like it's time to open the codes... Time to write to the Fed and FDIC, cc to the presidents of Bank A and Bank B.

Keep after it! Keep taking notes of every conversation and copies of all correspondence. And keep your cool. There's a few people here who are the problem, but most of the people you are going to deal with are just getting sucked into the backwash.

We're all rooting for you!

[The Bone]

We finally got this situation resolved. Bank B finally got substantial proof that Bank A paid our mortgage. Bank A did not deal with the situation very professionally, however, the moral in our opinion is deal directly with your vendors and do not use an intermediary to pay bills. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Electronic Funds Transfers from bank to bank on behalf of a banking customer are very hard to trace, for some reason...

And oh, ya, the Local News station helped out by making a few phone calls and now they want to put us on TV... This may be my big break!

[getbent]

oh man... tell us when you are on... I have a present for you if you give the TDPRI a shout! (we must see it on youtube or equivalent to win)

If you mention Paul by name, I'll double the prize!

[ADK Teleman]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Tell them you don't believe them. If they ask what do you mean?, tell them they are lying and that you both know it. Banks don't wire money back and forth with no records of the transaction.

Also, get a lawyer, make sure Bank A knows they are paying for it.

+1 There is always a transaction number...period..this is enforced by the SEC and the FED...throw the bs flag and talk with the branch manager.

[charlie cash]

I'm glad it finally got worked out, but it should not have involved nearly the amout of time and aggravation that it did. Bank A should have bent over backwards to solve the problem that was clearly a bank error. You may consider transferring your accounts from Bank A to Bank C.

[Ricky D.]

Originally Posted by The Bone

We finally got this situation resolved. Bank B finally got substantial proof that Bank A paid our mortgage. Bank A did not deal with the situation very professionally, however, the moral in our opinion is deal directly with your vendors and do not use an intermediary to pay bills. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. Electronic Funds Transfers from bank to bank on behalf of a banking customer are very hard to trace, for some reason...
And oh, ya, the Local News station helped out by making a few phone calls and now they want to put us on TV... This may be my big break!

Again in the opinion of Mrs. D. and her 30+ years of banking experience, you were put to a ridiculous amount of trouble. The people at Bank A were either indifferent or incompetent, probably both. Mrs. D. handles a large number of EFT's and occasionally has to trace one that does not arrive as intended. She says it's easy and it doesn't take very long. Maybe time to chnge to a different branch.