Downloading Copywritten Music?

[Telewanger]

I never pay to go on any websites, period! The only password sites that I go on are Guitar Forum Websites. However, I have not bought a music CD or Video in years. I sometimes go to overseas websites in England, Japan, Germany, Denmark, etc. and get tons of mp3 files, games, and movies. Since US copyright laws can't enforce what other countries do, is it illegal for me to download and visit these sites in other countries, even if I don't have to enter any type of password to access the material?

If I pay my DSL bill every month, and I am not hacking into a site, can I not visit any site that I want without breaking laws. Who makes the Laws for the internet? I have no idea who owns the rights to the internet!

I have 3 music CD's of my own copy written material, that I busted my butt to write, record, and master. I was digging around the web a while back, and I found my CD's for sale in Taiwan, Japan, United Kingdom, Switzerland, and fifty other places. My CD's are copy written here in the US, but someone made copies and sent them all over the world without my permission.

How am I supposed to stop overseas governments from selling my music CD's, and every citizen in the world from downloading them for free? Take them to court? I've got $1000.00 and they have $100,000,000,000 dollars.

Here is the bottom line! If you put your music up for sale on the internet, before long, nobody will need to pay you for it anymore. Someone will make a copy, post it on an overseas website, and it is free for the world to have. It will never leave. It will circle the globe millions of times and you can never have it back. So, having said that, I don't feel guilty at all about downloading free music or videos from the internet anymore. Everybody downloads mine, I can't do anything about it!

[garytelecastor]

Could you tell me where these sites are so I can download your stuff?

In all seriousness, it is a real problem. Creative works are the most vulnerable as they don't have a material essence.

[Goluphi]

I don't think it's illegal to download the files - only to host them so that other people can download them.

[Nash]

Originally Posted by Goluphi

I don't think it's illegal to download the files - only to host them so that other people can download them.

This is a bit of a gray area in the law. It isn't specifically stated as such, but basically the law dictates it being unlawful to upload copy-written material for distribution without the proper license. Technically downloading these songs is not illegal, although if you use torrents you are uploading to your "peers" which thus makes it illegal. Essentially it is not illegal to download copyright material, but it isn't legal either.

[klasaine]

It doesn't feel too good to have your stuff taken with out your permission doesn't it?
Nothing against you personally telewanger.
The only way this will stop/get solved is when the 'i get to take anything i want generation' gets all their intellectual property ... taken.
Probably best to lock the thread now. I will continue to 'rant'.

[ibobunot]

Wow... deja vous...

At first I thought someone had dug up an old thread...

[jhundt]

I have often wondered this: are second-hand record shops or thrift shops required to pay any copyright fees?

[JPW2105]

I feel no sympathy for the record companies when intellectual property rights are bypassed, it's the artist I feel for.

Not only do they get bent over and then shafted by their record company, it would appear that their fans are doing to them also. It's a sorry state of affairs and I suppose it's all down to if you can sleep at night....

[kp8]

I gave up.

My music has been blogged a couple times and i know it is on slsk as well. If it is a new release and i am trying to recoup printing costs I might ask the blogger to take it down for a couple months, otherwise i figure screw it, the only thing that still bothers me is that folks are listening to it as low bit mp3 and not really hearing it in it's full redbook splendor (hehe). At some point, when the disks are OOP i might just through them all up on a server as flacs. If people (all 3 of them haha) want my weird-o music bad enough to steal it then i guess they can have it. I give my CDs out at gigs like they are breath mints anyway.

I printed my last CD in a run of 500. We figured that if i sold 150 or so of them (through distributers ($7), less if we sell them at gigs for $10 or $12 a pop), with duplication and a spendy 4 color cover on a digipack we'd still break even. We broke even in the first month (thanks to nice reviews in the Wire and Downbeat and some good word o' mouth).

Still if you make a boss cover, some folks will want to buy it anyway. I am that way. Even if i can get a good rip of something, if it is something meaningful to me I usually want the full bandwidth and the artwork and notes too.

I found giving up on the idea of a profit and just aiming to break even and get the music in the hands of the most people was liberating. We ain't looking to make it "big", which is a hilarious notion considering how small the audience for our music is. We're in it for the glory.

YMMV.

[superhand]

Back in the old days, you could record a vinyl LP on to a cassette and give it to a friend and no one really cared, what is the difference? Isn't file sharing basically the same thing?

[FirstBassman]

http://www.copyright.gov/

[podboy3]

Originally Posted by kp8

I gave up.

My music has been blogged a couple times and i know it is on slsk as well. If it is a new release and i am trying to recoup printing costs I might ask the blogger to take it down for a couple months, otherwise i figure screw it, the only thing that still bothers me is that folks are listening to it as low bit mp3 and not really hearing it in it's full redbook splendor (hehe). At some point, when the disks are OOP i might just through them all up on a server as flacs. If people (all 3 of them haha) want my weird-o music bad enough to steal it then i guess they can have it. I give my CDs out at gigs like they are breath mints anyway.

I printed my last CD in a run of 500. We figured that if i sold 150 or so of them (through distributers ($7), less if we sell them at gigs for $10 or $12 a pop), with duplication and a spendy 4 color cover on a digipack we'd still break even. We broke even in the first month (thanks to nice reviews in the Wire and Downbeat and some good word o' mouth).

Still if you make a boss cover, some folks will want to buy it anyway. I am that way. Even if i can get a good rip of something, if it is something meaningful to me I usually want the full bandwidth and the artwork and notes too.

I found giving up on the idea of a profit and just aiming to break even and get the music in the hands of the most people was liberating. We ain't looking to make it "big", which is a hilarious notion considering how small the audience for our music is. We're in it for the glory.

YMMV.

I am the same way and I know a lot of other people out there are also, I want that physical disc in my hand (or record) put it in the player and getting to press play......it's a physical product that I bought and not some album hanging out it limbo that can be erased.

I also love opening and reading the book or jacket notes and checking out the artwork...... With this said I do also download music if they are bootlegs of live shows that are not released but more and more artist are putting out high quality releases of their shows for download on their site and usually at a decent price...... I also download albums for free as a way to test the album, if something/someone new comes out I download it to see if I like it and if I do I buy it, if I don't I delete it. There is so much garbage that is being put out as music and the one or two radio edits they have are ok but the other 13 to 15 songs sucks..... I will not by an album like that.

As for admitting that you download other peoples work for free and never pay for it. I don't believe you don't know the legalities of it, at your age I am sure you have heard it brought up in the news, in the paper, music magazines, or by whiny rich drummers of sold out bands.
And after admitting all this you go on to whine about some people taking yours. Are you expecting sympathy or help to stage a protest...... I just don't know what you were/are hoping to hear.

[Tdub]

You want people to pay you, for what you don't even pay for?

[tboy]

Originally Posted by superhand

Back in the old days, you could record a vinyl LP on to a cassette and give it to a friend and no one really cared, what is the difference? Isn't file sharing basically the same thing?

Huge difference, although there was a big stink about cassette machines back then. They wanted to tack on fees to cassettes or some such nonsense.

Digital and WWW make the issue a million times larger, in a culture where intellectual theft is no longer considered to be unethical. Maybe, thank Hip Hop culture, where an entire genre of music was built on stealing other artists work. I have many students in college that copy and paste off the internet (usually Wikipedia) and turn in as original work. When you call them on it, they say that's how they were taught to compose a paper in high school

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by jhundt

I have often wondered this: are second-hand record shops or thrift shops required to pay any copyright fees?

No, and neither are "new" record stores, unless they play music in the store, in which case they have to pay the ASCAP/BMI fees like anywhere else.

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by Telewanger

I have 3 music CD's of my own copy written material, that I busted my butt to write, record, and master. I was digging around the web a while back, and I found my CD's for sale in Taiwan, Japan, United Kingdom, Switzerland, and fifty other places. My CD's are copy written here in the US, but someone made copies and sent them all over the world without my permission.

...

So, having said that, I don't feel guilty at all about downloading free music or videos from the internet anymore. Everybody downloads mine, I can't do anything about it!

Hey, I made three lame albums that no-one cared about. So now I get to download everything good I want for free forever? Outstanding!

[elsewhere]

If people copy and listen to your stuff, that means that there's a demand for it. If people sell it, that only goes to show that people are willing to pay for it. Why don't you sell it yourself instead of whining that people are illegally doing something they have no chance to do legally? That's something that annoys me often: For example, I can't view a lot of perfectly legitimate youtube videos because they're for some reason only available in the US. If I then torrent them, am I to blame?

Regarding legal issues, the copyright law around the world is pretty much the same because of international agreements (and your lovely government is pushing it down our throats), so the case for legal action is there if someone is profiting off your work. And no "overseas government" is selling your work, it's the people who live in said countries. Actually, there isn't any "overseas" either, just a bunch of countries, all different.

But then again, pot kettle black. And yes, it is illegal for you to download copyrighted material, no matter where it's from. Is it morally wrong is an another question.

[brokenjoe]

Originally Posted by elsewhere

If people copy and listen to your stuff, that means that there's a demand for it. If people sell it, that only goes to show that people are willing to pay for it. Why don't you sell it yourself instead of whining that people are illegally doing something they have no chance to do legally? That's something that annoys me often: For example, I can't view a lot of perfectly legitimate youtube videos because they're for some reason only available in the US. If I then torrent them, am I to blame?

Regarding legal issues, the copyright law around the world is pretty much the same because of international agreements (and your lovely government is pushing it down our throats), so the case for legal action is there if someone is profiting off your work. And no "overseas government" is selling your work, it's the people who live in said countries. Actually, there isn't any "overseas" either, just a bunch of countries, all different.

But then again, pot kettle black. And yes, it is illegal for you to download copyrighted material, no matter where it's from. Is it morally wrong is an another question.

Some VERY good points here.

The last sentence holds the key for me: It's about your own personal morality.

[TDPRI]

Originally Posted by tboy

Huge difference, although there was a big stink about cassette machines back then. They wanted to tack on fees to cassettes or some such nonsense.

Actually guys... they did put a surcharge on ALL BLANK CASSETTE tapes for decades, still do I guess, and the money from that surcharge is collected for distribution to recording artists.

Here's how they distributed it -- by the artist's percentage of sales in the market place. So, if you were the Eagles and you sold 20% of all the music sold in the marketplace you got 20% of all the surcharges collected on the sale of blank cassettes.

And, there were billions of blank cassettes sold.

Actually, they "tried" to do this on CDRs too. But it failed. They created a special "Musc CDR" that included a surcharge for copying other folks music. And, to go along with those there were special Music CD Recorders that would only record to a "Music CDR".

This failed because of computers -- anyone could make a music CD with a plain Data CDR in a computer. No need for an expensive Music CD Recorder or expensive Music CDRs.

With the advent of MP3's and broadband internet all of that flew out the window.

[nvilletele]

Sorry to be so anal, but (in the interest of, well, just being anal) just thought I'd offer a correction re the title of this thread . . .

"copywritten" refers to things written by a copywriter . . . someone who writes "copy" for advertisements and such.

"copyrighted" refers to things for which the writer/performer etc holds a copyright = The right by law to be the entity which determines who may publish, copy and distribute a piece of writing, music, picture or other work of authorship.

It is apparently a common mistaken usage due to the homophones involved.
(please, no bad jokes about homophones . . . )

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion . . . .

[tele-rain]

I'm always torn on this subject, personally (which I know doesn't mean squat in the eyes of the law). On one hand I see music as an expression, an artist pouring their heart and soul in the form of a song and putting it out there. Other people hear it, connect with it, and want to have it to enjoy as well. Therein lies the problem, the word "have". Who owns this song? Surely the person who created it does, unless it's wrapped up in legal red tape. But then I ask myself, why is someone creating the songs in the first place? If it's for profit, then by all means they should fight tooth and nail to keep it as thier own property and reap the benefits whenever possible. But if that song was created out of a specific feeling, maybe the singer was pissed off, or in love, or anything in between, and he used his creativity to write the song. Isn't the act of creating art all about getting it out of our heads and into some form of expression for the creator and others? So therefore, wouldn't the song itself be "payment" , and wouldn't other people relating to this song, feeling something from the artist's words and notes, also contribute to the intent of writing the song in the first place?

Let me stick in a little disclaimer here, I completely understand this is a very unrealistic way to view this issue. In the real world, we all have bills to pay and mouths to feed. So if a musician relies on his art to pay the bills and feed the mouths, then it's understandable that others profiting off of his songs is wrong. I just don't think there is ever going to be a happy medium for everyone all around. As soon as Music became a business, it became suspectible to being treated as such and in that sense, it has to have rules and regs to follow.

Still, I'm not saying I completely comply either. I subscribe to a Russian mp3 site, it's not free but the songs are ridiculously cheap. I assume the out of country laws mentioned above are why they are able to get away with selling them so cheap. But on the other hand, I have a lot of indie artists that I support on a regular basis, buying their CDs from them at shows, going to shows, buying their merch, doing whatever I can to support. I understand both sides, so I just try to do what I can and where I can.

[JosephB]

i just put my stuff up for free on bandcamp.com or mediafire...i figure it's going to happen anyway...why not just make sure theyre getting the best quality from the source?

[castpolymer]

As for music, I have never downloaded any music that is not offered up by the artist for free. I just don't feel right about it. I feel like it is stealing in a way. I guess I am still old fashioned as I also have all my music on cd's which I then transfer to mp3.

[Goluphi]

Not in any way affiliated, but if you want the ease of illegal downloading without the moral conundrum, try Zune Pass: http://www.zune.net/en-US/products/zunepass/default.htm

Lightning fast downloads, a plethora or music, for only $15/month. And it's all 100% legal.

[woodman]

Originally Posted by JosephB

i just put my stuff up for free

me too ... at least people who want to listen can do so, and in today's market of a hundred zillion indie-produced records, my chances of penetrating the market in any meaningful way are about like a fart in a whirlwind. exposure is worth something in and of itself.

[jitensha]

You guys should read Lawrence Lessig on culture and copywrite. I think there is even a lecture of his on TED talks.

As much as I empathize with Telewanger, kneejerk reactions to enforce 20th century copywrite models in the 21st century will kill creativity in the long run.
The music biz needs to think of a new model for making money.

Also check out the film "RIP: a remix manifesto". You can watch it free on line and is very insiteful on the bigger picture of copywrite in the digital age.

[polishcomedy]

Originally Posted by superhand

Back in the old days, you could record a vinyl LP on to a cassette and give it to a friend and no one really cared, what is the difference? Isn't file sharing basically the same thing?

First off, how far would that album travel? A friend gives a friend down the block a copy, and maybe he gives a relative a copy. Now only one person needs to get a hold of the album, post it online, and now every single person on the planet can get it free. HUGE difference.

Also cassettes sounded like crap. Even worse were dubbed cassettes. When you made a copy from an LP you were getting a degraded version of the album. With online you can download CD-quality FLAC or just about CD-quality 320 kbps, so you're essentially getting a perfect copy.

[Larry F]

The main thing that I do in life is compose. I write for solo instruments, chamber groups, and orchestra. Most of these have an electronic component. Everything I have written since 1996, I believe, is on commercial CDs. These are sold to university libraries and individuals. Often a professor of, say, bassoon, will buy a CD that has my bassoon piece on it. Then, he might either want to perform it himself, or will have a student do it. In either case, I am contacted and send out the performing materials. They are accustomed to paying for it, but I just give it to them free. I don't sell/give away enough music to make it worth the effort.

I also have most of this music on my website as CD-quality soundfiles. I also have PDF scores and tracks that musicians would play along with. My goal is to have everything up there so that when I die, all of my music can be heard and performed in the most efficient way possible. As my stuff gets copied and goes onto millions-or tens- of computers, then I am set for eternity. What is bad for many musicians is perfect for me.

We live in a very fluid time, to say the least. Music wasn't always sold in quantities that enabled a few to live in mansions. Just because it has been that way since, what, 1950 (I wish I knew) or at least 1965, doesn't mean that it can and should be that way forever.

By the way, DAT machines and/or tapes also met with resistance. I think some had been made, but the music industry blocked their commercial sale for a year or two.

I also remember recording digitally onto VHS tapes for a few years. There was a guy in Chicago who recorded classical music concerts at the universities and around town on video tape. He was everywhere at the time. What an archive that must be. He was very scientific about it. Does anyone remember him? His name was Dick somebody and he was an engineer at Motorola. He was doing this between 1984 and the mid-90s that I know of.

[jitensha]

here are some links to the resources I mentioned above.

Lawrence Lessig on TED talks:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/la...reativity.html

RIP a remix manifesto:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RemixManifesto#p/u

Check them out

[Telewanger]

You guys got me thinking today. I thought long and hard. Now, I know why I am, the way I am. I spent a lot of time in the military. I was in the Gulf War in Iraq. We were taught, "If someone starts shooting at you, shoot back." If someone punches you, punch back!

When the World Trade Center was bombed, what did we do? We went over there and tore the place up.

So, if people keep stealing my music, or takes my stuff, I'm am going to take something back. You can thank Uncle Sam for teaching me this way of thinking. I'm not saying it is right, but that's what the military drilled in my head for many years.

[polishcomedy]

Originally Posted by Telewanger

You guys got me thinking today. I thought long and hard. Now, I know why I am, the way I am. I spent a lot of time in the military. I was in the Gulf War in Iraq. We were taught, "If someone starts shooting at you, shoot back." If someone punches you, punch back!

When the World Trade Center was bombed, what did we do? We went over there and tore the place up.

So, if people keep stealing my music, or takes my stuff, I'm am going to take something back. You can thank Uncle Sam for teaching me this way of thinking. I'm not saying it is right, but that's what the military drilled in my head for many years.

If someone steals your car should you go steal someone else's? Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Frontier9]

Life get's a whole lot simpler when you stop blaming others for your own actions.

[neocaster]

-- but please follow our rules and stay away from subjects that turn political or have caused fights in the past.

With that note, can we please shut this down now?

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by neocaster

With that note, can we please shut this down now?

Yep!

Tim