Working live with drum machine?

[tonyguitargoat]

Here in the UK, lots of the smaller gigs have gone to duos, or guys singing to backing tracks. My little trio has always played live and I don't consider it a real band unless they have a drummer. But lately we've been offered work if the two of us (guitar and bass) used a drum machine. We could still play the same numbers, have the same sound -and frankly the audiences wouldn't know or care if the drummer was real or a box of electronics. I once played with a guy who used a drum machine onstage, and he put it through a cab at the back of the stage where the drummer would've been, and it worked pretty well. He just used a start/stop pedal. No fills, but it was always in time.

Anyone work like this? - I'm looking at the Zoom MRT-3 - basically a box of drum patterns (wouldn't be programming whole songs bar by bar!) that can be stopped and started by a footswitch.

Any help gratefully received. Thanks.
Tony.

[ggiles]

Maybe if there was no space for drums or you are a one man band set-up ... but a band isn't a band without a real drummer. If you are a memeber of a trio ... how does your drummer feel about it. I'd feel a bit insulted by it.

Guys singing to backing tracks is called Karaoke around here.

[brewwagon]

sad

its like having a box that plays all the guitar parts wrong


bw
player of drums and percussion instruments

[Prawnpuller]

I do the one man band thing using a Roland RA-90 Realtime Arranger with Roland PK-5 foot peddles.This an old system from the 80's . It is effective with a good beat (country) and I can add or delete other live musicians depending on availability or venue. This system has an electronic drummer and other instruments that you can leave on or turn them off. I usually end up with just the drummer and base line..play guitar and vocals myself. The best part is I have my own little band with no friction from my band. They mis-behave..I just shut them off Works for me

[dan1952]

I love drummers and drums, the louder the better! Having said that, several years ago a bassist friend and I played in several small bars around the area using two old Yamaha drum machines. He programmed the beats to the songs he sang, and I did the same for the ones I sang, and it worked well. We even named the machines...his was named "Vince," after Sgt. Vincent Carter on "Gomer Pyle," because it kept him in line much like Sgt. Carter tried to keep Gomer in line. Mine was named "Peter the Master Beater"...

[BlueJim]

We once did a gig with drum machine. It was very dissatisfying. I think it takes a full time drum programmer to put together a decent drum part and it seems easier to get an actual drummer.

[blue metalflake]

Mid/late 80's I gigged for maybe 6 years as a duo, with electric piano player & drum machine. The piano had a split keyboard, with a good bass sound, so we had a reasonable sound.

Drum machine was nothing special - they were basic at the time. No fills, just a footswitch to start & stop. We worked out how to get all the rhythms we needed OK, but couldn't do anything fancy

By preference I'd want a live drummer. The machine never gets to be like playing with a drummer, and never is as satisfying, but few punters notice. Advantages were one less to feed, never answered back, didn't drink, never late for a gig, etc .......

The key to using one, is that you follow the machine - its too stupid to follow you.

[Slow Reflexes]

Sounds pretty clear-cut to me - Get a drum machine, and have a gig. Or, don't and stay home.

I dunno; I'd probably take the gig. Is it you with a couple of hired guns, or are the three of you the group? If you're actually a committed band, I guess the drummer might not take it very well...

[petebradt]

I think the real question is when is a gig not worth having, and when do we put our feet down and tell these jerks "We're a BAND!"?

I'd tell the fella suggesting dumping the drummer to pound sand.

[RedDirt]

Most of the working bands (with drummers) I know are using a drum machine for at least a click track if not more. Hard to define what is "right" and when it becomes too much. Too some extent, you are talking about a person (the drummer), but at the same time, if the gig won't work for 3 people, you throwing a hissy fit won't change that. - Good Luck -

[stxrus]

i've been in both situations and would rather have a live drummer. BUT if comes to the point of NOT getting a gig or NOT making any money then i have no issues using a drum machine.

most of the time the audience doesn't know the difference or cares.

just my $.02 before taxes

steve

[mlove3]

get the machine, do the gig. I'd rather gig with a real drummer too but when the gig calls for it you do it, or you don't get the gig.
I've done it and will do it again I'm sure, it's ok, you're no less a musician. might even make you better, no speeding up!

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by RedDirt

oo some extent, you are talking about a person (the drummer), but at the same time, if the gig won't work for 3 people, you throwing a hissy fit won't change that. - Good Luck -

In our lives, we are faced with choices all the time. We are often faced with doing the honorable thing, or doing the expedient thing.

I wish I could say I believe the folks on the TDP could be counted upon to a man or woman, to do the honorable thing, and in fact some of them can, indeed, be counted upon to do just that. Some of them are my good friends.

But more and more, I see people rationalizing doing the expedient thing. Whether it's dumping drummers, illegally downloading others' music, whatever.

Sure, the OP could throw his drummer under the bus and get the gig. However, if I were that drummer, I'd say "Sod off, the lot of you, I'm finished with you." (Hey, they're in the UK, I was trying to use the vernacular I know of that distant land)

When Ray and the Detonators had its CD release gig, a friend of our drummer's said he didn't need to buy a copy, his brother had and could rip it and burn him a copy. Well, you can imagine how long THAT notion lasted. The guy bought his own copy.

I was in an outfit for a little while last year after R&TD broke up. After about three months, I left. Part of it was the bassist was worthless and wasn't going to get any better. Part of it was I didn't like the song selection but the straw that broke the camel's back was they wanted to play a bunch of "gigs" for free. Unless it's a benefit, as far as I'm concerned, if you're not getting paid, you're not playing a gig, you're not even a band.

Playing for free in a venue where only the owner makes money accomplishes two things - you'll quickly get a rep as a band who doesn't need to be paid and NO ONE will pay you. It also sells out every other musician in the market.

I believe it is important to make the honorable choice. We don't throw our drummers under the bus. We don't steal our colleague's music and we don't undercut our colleagues.

This is my philosophy. I hope y'all share it because if you don't, well, hell, I don't even want to know you.

To the OP: Please, don't throw your drummer under a bus. It's just wrong.

[bignote]

+1. I am so tired of clubs and owners that know exactly what my band offers and what results having us in thier club can bring who try and change us. "Maybe you guys could just play acoustic stuff, or not bring a drumer" I am in band! ***k em'. The band plays on!

[petebradt]

+1 back atcha. You get it, brother.

[Tim Armstrong]

My brother and I will play the odd duo gig, but NOT billed as "The Mood Swingers" because frankly, that's THE BAND, and our drummer is a key element.

We bill ourselves as "The Armstrong Brothers" and we play our instruments and we sing. No drum machine, because frankly, we're good enough that we don't NEED no stinkin' drum machine!

Tim

[elsewhere]

Depending on what you play, a drum machine might actually be a significant part of your sound, though that's obviously not the case here. But there are bands that have never had a live drummer, and some quite succesful ones too (like The Sisters of Mercy), since the mechanically precise aspect of the drum machine's sound does work with some things.

[neocaster]

One day, the drummers will rise up and smite the the machines. Until then, the only question is which do you care about more, the job or your drummer. I don't know if you play for fun or you play to pay bills. Seems an important part of the puzzle.

[Sollophonic]

I lived and played in bands in Leeds in the 1980s. The city of leeds spawned quite a few bands that used drum machines rather than drummers. I was told that the reason was the dearth of good drummers and decent rehearsal spaces in the city at the time. I can vouch for this as the drummer we played with was in a couple of other bands as well. And myself and the bass player owned the drum kit in one band we had, as we found it easier to recruit drummers in a student city, if they didnt have to provide their own kit! We got a very talented drummer in this way.

Two or three bands that spring to mind as having drum machines were the Sisters of Mercy, who became the Mission, and a great band called the Three Johns, who were all called John, played bluesy indie stuff, used a brilliant sounding Drumtrax machine, and whos main man, John Langford also played in the Mekons and now lives and playes in Chicago.

To make a live drum machine work though IMO, it has to be well programmed, preferably by someone who knows about druming.

[BobHolland]

A lot of musicians can't work with a drum machine & some can't play to a click track in the studio. Listening can be a problem. I have always played with a live drummer but the last 1 1/2 yr. I played in a guitar/bass duo with a Boss DR5 drum machine. Just ran drum loops, nothing fancy. For the situation it worked well & we worked a lot of very small places. Made a lot of money & it was fun. (The guitar player passed away in April). I just started playing bass with a band & a live drummer. This band couldn't work with a drum machine. They are too busy listening to there own playing with a drummer dragging them along too loudly. I would say do what works for the situation you are in. The public probably doesn't care whether it's a live drummer or not. I've actually played with drummers that made me wonder it they were actually live or maybe not.

[ce24]

To say backing tracks is simply karaoke is really not understanding todays technology or karaoke. we build our backing tracks from the ground up for our trio, there is plenty of room for jamming when we think the song needs it. we do NOT sound canned at all. We frequently hear comments from the crowd that "these guys are good"! We also live in small rural area where a drummer is really not available or at least one that we would care to work with. To take the purist approach as some have here would deny many people from recording/gigging and that is bad for everybody...people like the Stones, Clapton etc....they use drum loops all the time in the studio......2c

Cheers
ce24

[ce24]

OP...so you have side gig as a duo...I don't see the fuss made here. don't call yourselves the same name and your drummer should be happy for you. you would still be a band as a trio right? lighten up peterbradt....taking a side gig is not a less than honorable thing to do. To imply otherwise is being a bit harsh.
Go for it OP if the drummer is upset he'll either leave or get over it.....the other guitarist in my trio plays with other musicians and has side shows and I support him all the way!!!!

Cheers
ce24

[Colin Johnston]

I've worked quite a bit with a drum machine over the years. Check out the Alesis - you can hook up start/stop & A/B footswitches. With a bit of tweaking and practice you can get some great results.

BTW I'm all for anything that gets you out playing to an audience - big band, small band, machines, tapes or solo - all gigs are good gigs.

[tonyguitargoat]

Thanks guys. I'm the one who asked the original question. I wasn't so much asking for your moral opinions, but your replies are very interesting. In our case we would always take bookings with a drummer whenever we could. We don't have a regular drummer in the band who's going to be thrown out - we have a pool of guys we call upon depending on where the gig is, and their availability. It's just that we may get extra gigs this way.

I was really asking how it works technically - does it 'feel' OK onstage? Does the repetiton and lack of drum fills drive you nuts?

[ce24]

we don't use a drum machine but as i said if you build just a drum backing track you can make it do what ever you want.....I feel no different on stage using tracks than when I was in a 6 piece band with everything....I like the trio waaaaay better than a full 6 pc band. but that's mainly due to the personnel probs are waay bigger with that many pple. but the music we play in our trio is much more fun and is actually less structured in a lot of ways.

Cheers
ce24

[Jammin'John1]

The state of my local economy is terrible.
We have a duo because of that.
We didn't want to be 2 guys sitting on stools playing acoustic guitars so we incorporated a Boss drum machine.
Most of our gigs now are without a drummer.
It's improved my meter not working with a drummer and it's easier for us to control the volume in supper clubs.
I miss the van though.
Good for you guys that can afford to turn down work because you MUST have REAL drums.
I am not in that position............. I need the cheese.


JJ

[BobHolland]

If you program a drum machine with all those fills, drum rolls, cymbal crashes & stops, you have to play the song exactly the same every time without change. Every heard the term "Train Wreck"? The machine will not adjust if someone forgets the words or a chord change. It does not listen to what you are playing or have a care in the world.

[bobthecanadian]

I have found the experience to playing to a track or a drum machine to be rewarding. In the long run it has made me a better musician as I have to know the song and structure better and I have to be much better at listening to what is going on around me.

As to the OP's question, does it sound OK? Well, I'd have to say yes. If you decide to use a drum track live, as with any instrument, make sure you have a good mix. You will do just fine.

[emiller45]

I have worked with drum machines and MIDI tracks at various evolutions. It has been a long time, so my perspective may be dated.

Some of them sound pretty cheesy, so you will need to find one that sounds good and make sure you have equipment that will give the unit a good sound - especially the kick drum. Most of them are programmable so there is always the issue of how detailed this process should be. It can be a lot of extra work. And, as has already been mentioned, they are machines and as such do not allow for human error. I would suggest doing some serious rehersal before going live.

On a strictly personal level, I found it worked better if I did not try to program every punch, break or whatever. Instead, I would "sketch" the arrangements - going for the broad strokes, so to speak. I also leaned more toward material where the drums were more subtle.

Lastly, be prepared to flash your professional smile when someone requests "Wipeout".

[bender-freak]

[quote=BobHolland;2022250]If you program a drum machine with all those fills, drum rolls, cymbal crashes & stops, you have to play the song exactly the same every time without change. Every heard the term "Train Wreck"? The machine will not adjust if someone forgets the words or a chord change. It does not listen to what you are playing or have a care in the world.[/QUOTE)


i have used a Keytron/Solton MS40 for years for my "drummer, bass player, rythym player"....rolls, fills, crashes, etc i do by pressing a foot switch, not by pre-programming...only thing i had to "program" on the MS40 was MIDI send/receive...everything else is accessable by the front panel, pattern, tempo, etc......i guess i'm the odd man out on this topic that comes up quite often, but i like drum/bass machines (and i also like harmonizers that have had the MIDI channels properly set) that are used "live-time"..pre-programmed drum patterns/songs would be like having the same sandwich for lunch every day; with my set-up i can play any song i know how to play with whatever speed i want, and make it as long or short as i want, and put the "accents" where i want....and it follows me since i hit the chords changes with a MIDI pedal system similar to organ pedals...it don't screw up unless i do...been there

and it always shows up on time and has no drama going on in it's life..buy a new cable/power supply occasionally and it's happy

[bender-freak]

and regarding "Wipeout"....i CAN do that with my rig, but i try NOT to.....

[F6_FullMelt]

If I were the drummer, I would not be upset if some of the profit was going back into the band, equipment, etc. Besides, you'll need him when the summer comes along anyhow.

that's just me though, nothing is personal.

[tomtheguitarguy]

If you sound good and have practiced with the drum machine and it shows, then the audience won't care - especially if you and your bass player are looking like you're having a good time and not struggling.

If you don't sound good and/or it looks like you're struggling with it - then the audience will care.

Bottom line, you'll just need to make sure that you don't take it for granted - you'll have to put in the time to either program, or select the correct preset patterns and tempos to make the songs sound well. In some ways, it's even more difficult practice than with the three of you together.

In this state of the economy, I always keep in mind that a "hundzy" is better than a "nunzy". When I book one man band shows, or duo's then I don't use the name of my band (similar to how Tim handles it), but if they want "the Tomcats", then it's the whole band or nothing. Otherwise, Tom the Guitar Guy is there, or even "Blind Mellow Jelly" (haha). As far as priorities, I'll always try to book the band first, but if budget or space/venue size doesn't allow, well then I'm still going to offer them another solution. After all, if I don't someone else will. And I really HATE going into a place where I knew that I could have gotten booked there if I had just tried.

Good Luck!

[Shiro]

And now for something completely different..... Our drummer use an electric kit. takes up a fraction of the space of a "real" kit, it sounds great, and it also has a volume knob!! I assume that space and volume is what the club owner is opposed to. He doesn't want drums, but drum sounds are ok? Just a thought.

[Steve G]

Tony, let us know what drum machine you buy. Funny, I was discussing the same thing yesterday with a friend of mine to make our country three piece beefier without adding a possible 'ego'.

[tonyguitargoat]

Well, Steve, I'm looking at the Zoom MRT-3 at the moment. It's the cheapest one out there I think, and we just want a 'box of presets'. It has hundreds, and you can add your own. I know you can program whole songs with fills, stops etc., but I don't want to do that - too restrictive if you don't stick to the exact arrangement (and we don't), and would take too long - we do hundreds of songs and might do a 'new' one on the spot. The alternative is the Alesis SR-16 which I think you can footswitch fills into - but any advice? Thanks.

[Steve G]

Not really, except I did look briefly at the MRT 3 and it seems discontinued, unless you're looking at second hand. I would imagine most drum machines would sound good to me as the last time I played with one was at least a decade ago. I'd rather have a drummer any day but we're a pretty cosy trio, all easy to work with and would rather avoid any potential hassles (nothing against drummers in partic.) whilst making a bit more money in these times of pub closures and general budget tightening.