Wonder when vacuum tubes will go the way of film

[GhostofJohnToad]

I was thinking about this today. At what point will vacuum tubes go the way of the dinosaur like film cameras or analog audio tape. I sure hope not anytime soon let me first off say.

I wonder, even with die hard photographers and film makers extolling the virtues and artistic merits of film they still lost the battle. Same with recording engineers, producers, and musicians and tape. At some point I wonder if the amp manufacturers will decide that digital is the only way to go and stop putting tubes/valves in their amps.

Was playing my tube amp and enjoying it greatly and like all things I realized how fleeting it may be like so many things. These things I ponder as I get older.

[Cam]

I don't think it will happen with a world full of tube nerds. I do have my jc120 anyway . Contrary to some beliefs, you can get a decent tone out of these if you know what you are doing. I do like my tube amps though. I'll be in the studio with a princeton reverb tonight.

[Rabog]

There will always (well at least for a long time) be someone willing to cash in on guitar geeks (and I mean that in a nice way!), just as there is still small run film production, and is likely to be for the foreseeable future.

The downside......££££'s! But then, there's nothing new there eh?

[iansmitchell]

Russia can't stand to lose another industry, they've already chopped down all the trees and shipped away all the attractive women. :P

Honestly? Guitarists have been using 1950's technology for nearly 60 years.
Digital is great, but it takes one HELL of an algorithm to recreate the effects of a signal remotely close to a single valve circuit, let alone rectifiers, capacitors, biasing. Even if the digital amps could recreate a tube amp, they'd recreate ONE AMP, not the cold solders, aged caps, hot biased tubes, half-burned filaments, and power rectifications of another amp from the same factory, same day, same amp.
Tubes are like blue jeans, they're rough, imperfect, but they're responsive, quirky, and durable. Just like some guys will never wear carbon fiber pants, some factory, somewhere, will ALWAYS be making vaccum tubes. If not for guitarists, for those countless ham radios or for satilite signal jammers(tubes still do it best).

SO maybe it's not digital we need to worry about, but instead solid-state direct valve replacements.

A guitar teacher of mine interned at peavey for a while. While he was there, his boss had a company come in, and because peavey does a lot of work with tubes, they asked him to analyze these new tube-replacement valves they had designed. Being a guitarist and a tinkerer to the bone, he decided to put a set of 'em in a classic 30 prototype he had.
Well, he cranked them up, he got a big jump in power from valves, but they worked relatively similarly. Anyway, a few days later, the black-suburban guys come to his office. Apparently while he was juicing these tubes, some big NSA circuit was being completely obstructed. The feds revealed the company which assigned these valves was a subsidiary of the chinese government, they confiscated the valves, and all research abstracts he had.

Now, it may have to wait for the freedom of information act to apply, but we may well one day be using something like those(which, as they were spec'd shouldn't burn out within a human lifetime of use), in out amps.

[Derek McNelly]

I, for one, anxiously await the death of the vacuum tube, and even moreso the tube amp.

[RodeoTex]

Actually I think the vacuum tube went the way of film long 40 years before film did.

Tubes used to be in EVERYTHING. Now tubes are just a tiny niche market. I also think that film will be around for a long time too but also just as a niche market.

Ever notice how there are still so many NOS Sylvania and other brands of tubes around? And when did Sylvania and other companies quit making tubes? 35 years ago maybe?

At least tubes keep for decades, film doesn't.

[OutlawSteph1975]

Never.

Derek, you poor dear.

[krauser2]

tube amps aint going anywhere

if they do I'll quit playing

[Mark Davis]

Tubes will die when everyone with a tube amp thinks digital amps sound better which isnt gonna happen! LOL

[GhostofJohnToad]

Originally Posted by Mark Davis

Tubes will die when everyone with a tube amp thinks digital amps sound better which isnt gonna happen! LOL

That's what makes me wonder, Mark. Does everyone here think mp3s sound better, or digital movies look better?

I agree with RodeoTex about how tubes are really a niche market, but given that all it takes is the the younger and younger generations of guitar hero influenced players to buy more SS amps than tube amps and the balance of power will be shifted and the choice will be made for everyone.

Not trying to be nihlistic here but it does become an interesting discussion.

[casterway]

Film is alive and well, thank you very much.

[casterway]

Originally Posted by RodeoTex

At least tubes keep for decades, film doesn't.

Film will keep forever in a frozen state.
Kodachrome is estimated to have a 200 year lifespan, after processing.

Digital stored information...not so much.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

Derek, you poor dear.

I never got the whole tube thing. It never really made much sense to me, because I always viewed tube amps as being outdated and impractical.

Something about that solid state bite, that sharp, piercing tonal quality that made me love playing guitar. I'm not deaf, but by god, by the time I put this thing down for good, I should be. Otherwise, I just wasn't playing enough.

[GhostofJohnToad]

Originally Posted by casterway

Film will keep forever in a frozen state.
Kodachrome is estimated to have a 200 year lifespan, after processing.

Digital stored information...not so much.

That's all well and good but what will Ted Williams' thawed head do when it awakens from its cryogenic state in the year 2242 to find his Kodachrome pictures in the shoebox under his frozen bed, well let us say, expired.

[bandeapart]

As long as I'm alive, so will tube amps. I can't stand solid state sounding amps... any of them, yes I've given them a try, but ewww. I play a guitar, not a computer.

[fezz parka]

Tubes are in military communications equipment. Why? Because EMP doesn't destroy them. As long as there is a need for the military, we'll have tubes.

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

Tubes are in military communications equipment. Why? Because EMP doesn't destroy them. As long as there is a need for the military, we'll have tubes.

This is a good point.

[Brendo]

I can't help but feel that they will lessen over time, and eventually become such a small market that you will only get a handful of boutique makers doing it. Larger companies nedd to shift units to make money, and let's face it, that is what they are in business for. Not to provide guitarists with the sound they have been searching for, not offer a product that a tech has poured hours of research into, but simply to make $$. To make the best profit, you shift thousands and thousands of units. For people to buy thousands and thousands of units, you have to keep the price within a decent range, meaning quality will need to go down. And then you advertise to the masses about how awesome you new (cheap, poor quality) amp is, and they will buy like lemmings falling into the sea.

The buyers of these amps are todays 15-30 year olds. They want cheap thrills, and the ability to get 15 amps in one (with modeling and DSP) means they are in heaven. And unfortunately they'll believe anything you want to tell them, because most of them are too lazy to find out for themselves. And then they train their kids, and the cycle continues.

There will always be someone who wants to buy tube amps, and there will always be someone who wants to make them, but they will become fewer and pricier. Sad, but even progress has a price, eh?

[cowboytwang]

If I remember right the "Tube Industry" closed up it's doors around 1982.
Some manufacturing equipment was purchased by third world companies. They have been making a very limited, and somewhat inferior, line of tubes for audio and instrument amps.
Of course it's not anywhere near the US and Western Europe production of 40 years ago.

[gitarzan]

I'm just worried they are going to stop making 8-track tapes.

[Mark Davis]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

That's what makes me wonder, Mark. Does everyone here think mp3s sound better, or digital movies look better?

I agree with RodeoTex about how tubes are really a niche market, but given that all it takes is the the younger and younger generations of guitar hero influenced players to buy more SS amps than tube amps and the balance of power will be shifted and the choice will be made for everyone.

Not trying to be nihlistic here but it does become an interesting discussion.

I worked as a stereo store manager/salesman and recording studio engineer.

For me tubes have a warmer top end sound and smoother bass than transistors. This is for stereos Im talking about. Nothing on earth sounds better than a stereo tube amp and a new set of matched tubes.

The tubes degrade over time and need replaced to sound its very best.

I think its kinda like when CD's came in they really didnt sound as good as records did to the trained ear but 6 pack joe your run of the mill consumer couldnt tell the difference and CD's were harder to mess up than records.

Ive heard some awfully good sounding transistor guitar amps.

Santana at Woodstock Albert King and many others.

I still like tubes better on guitar amps but could live with a good digital amp as long as I didnt hear a shrill top end.

[marshman]

I read recently that the next nail in the vacuum tube coffin is the rapid rise of LCD/Plasma TVs and 'pooter monitors. Old 'ray-tube' monitors are still in use, and as such, manufacturers have the material on hand to manufacture the needs of our very small and waaay niche market of audio purposed vacuum tubes. Once that market (the tv screens) goes away, the number of sources for our tubes will probably dwindle again.

Perhaps we can find a way to get tube audio into a realistic price bracket (seems a lot of 'em are PCB, anyway) then we can increase the demand for tubes.

[brgminicooper]

As a proud owner of a Kustom Double Barrel, I have to tell you that I find it to be my favorite amp so far. What other amps have I owned? Crate V18 212, Peavey Delta Blues 115, Kustom Tube 12a, Line 6 Flex Tone II, and Fender Super Champ XD.

Why do I like this one best? Well, it has more usable volume for a guy like me. Sure I could get some great tones out of that Peavey, but I had to wake my kids and the neighbors to do it. I got some neat tones out of the SCXD, but it never really compelled me the way the Peavey did. The Crate was great, but entirely too dark. Ultimately, the KDB does it for me because it isn't finicky, it isn't digital, and I don't have to worry about biasing tubes or finding new ones if they blow.

Don't get me wrong; a tube amp has its place for sure. But, that place is not in my amateur hands, nor in my tiny house.

Really, extolling the virtues of the tube amp is kind of strange. We are proud to say that we use obsolete technology. For example, my first car had a carburetor. Every vehicle I've owned since then has had fuel injection. I do not long for hard starts in the cold, nor do I miss the weird behavior if I drove it into the mountains.

Likewise my solid state amp. When I turn it on, it's on. No muss, no fuss.

Really, it's no surprise that Tele players would be attracted to "old-fashioned" amps though, is it? Again, no disrespect intended. Tele players are a traditionalist bunch. However, given the way a Tele can sound when it comes through an older Fender tweed amp, I can understand why.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

I, for one, anxiously await the death of the vacuum tube, and even moreso the tube amp.

Don't hold your breath, junior.

[markw51]

Some of us here are old enough to remember when polyester was going to replace natural fabrics like wool and cotton.

[Swee_tone]

Originally Posted by iansmitchell

A guitar teacher of mine interned at peavey for a while. While he was there, his boss had a company come in, and because peavey does a lot of work with tubes, they asked him to analyze these new tube-replacement valves they had designed.

Anyway, a few days later, the black-suburban guys come to his office. Apparently while he was juicing these tubes, some big NSA circuit was being completely obstructed. The feds revealed the company which assigned these valves was a subsidiary of the chinese government, they confiscated the valves, and all research abstracts he had.

Now, it may have to wait for the freedom of information act to apply, but we may well one day be using something like those(which, as they were spec'd shouldn't burn out within a human lifetime of use), in out amps.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but were these the ones being shown at last years NAMM?
I remember something about black colored tube like devices that basically made a tube amp into a SS, but never needed to be replaced. Supposedly as good sounding as tubes.
He was going to set up a site, but had some trouble, and nothing seemed to come of it.

This whole topic is facinating, and makes me feel I should stock up on tubes , before they charge triple for them in the future.

I like SS amps too, but try to get the glassiness of an AC30 set up properly?
I've never heard it in a SS.
Maybe someone has a sound sample of a SS doing that for me to hear? If they do, i'll buy that amp tomorrow.

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by Swee_tone

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but were these the ones being shown at last years NAMM?
I remember something about black colored tube like devices that basically made a tube amp into a SS, but never needed to be replaced. Supposedly as good sounding as tubes.
He was going to set up a site, but had some trouble, and nothing seemed to come of it.

This whole topic is facinating, and makes me feel I should stock up on tubes , before they charge triple for them in the future.

I like SS amps too, but try to get the glassiness of an AC30 set up properly?
I've never heard it in a SS.
Maybe someone has a sound sample of a SS doing that for me to hear? If they do, i'll buy that amp tomorrow.

Same, concept, but they've been trying since 1948 to replace tube equipment effectively with permanent technology.

These ones had a fancy name, i believe something like silicon, germanium, and halogen inductors or something along those lines. Not your normal transistor, and not your normal tube. Plus, they were military grade robust as hell stuff. I don't think uncle sam would bother shutting down something which would be at NAMM less than a decade later.

Solid state amps have a different bag of tricks. Play a fender princeton from the 80's and listen to that stereo chorus, or the balls-out grind of randalls. They're another set of quirks, for sure.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by petebradt

Don't hold your breath, junior.

Stranger things have happened...

[OutlawSteph1975]

Originally Posted by iansmitchell

Play a fender princeton from the 80's and listen to that stereo chorus,

I had one of those. The chorus was pretty neat! If I had more space I would have kept it as a project.

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by OutlawSteph1975

I had one of those. The chorus was pretty neat! If I had more space I would have kept it as a project.

I really want one. Mostly cause I have an old red knob twin, and I want the princeton and then the champ, cause they all matched, and it'd be cute...
That, and they're cool amps.
The only generation of champ to have an effects loop, pretty cool.

[petebradt]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

Stranger things have happened...

I have enough tubes to last me the rest of my life. So it'll be at least until I die.

Tubes have the sound. Nothing else does. When you get older, you and your peers will understand and then tubes will live on for another generation.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by petebradt

I have enough tubes to last me the rest of my life. So it'll be at least until I die.

Tubes have the sound. Nothing else does. When you get older, you and your peers will understand and then tubes will live on for another generation.

Tubes have the sound you're looking for, but not for myself. As silly as it sounds, I've never liked the sound of tube amps.

[jazztele]

crap, man, i play a polytone and just bought a digital SLR. i'm part of the problem, not the solution!

[DMace]

Derek, more power to you. Like what you like and to hell with what other people say you should like. That said, I love tubes and despise SS. But, being a realist, I imagine that in a few generations (50 years) all amps will be digital in one way or another...if anybody's playing electric guitar at all by then.

[Dave Hopping]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

That's all well and good but what will Ted Williams' thawed head do when it awakens from its cryogenic state in the year 2242 to find his Kodachrome pictures in the shoebox under his frozen bed, well let us say, expired.

Ted can hang out at Planet Express with Fry,Leela,Bender,Hermes,Dr.Zoidberg,Amy and Professor Hubert Farnsworth.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by DMace

Derek, more power to you. Like what you like and to hell with what other people say you should like. That said, I love tubes and despise SS. But, being a realist, I imagine that in a few generations (50 years) all amps will be digital in one way or another...if anybody's playing electric guitar at all by then.

Exactly my thoughts. People are welcome to enjoy tube amps and analog effects and whatnot, but I'm not one of those people.

A tube pre-amp can add a lot to a guitar sound, but as for an all tube setup, I'll pass on that.

[brokenjoe]

I've heard great sound out of SS amps, but I've heard even MORE great sounds out of tube amps.

I've never owned a SS amp, but I'm willing to concede that in the right circumstances, with a well eq'd SS amp, I might not be able to tell the difference if it was a-b'd with a tube amp.

However, I will say that a tube amp is generally easier to get a pleasing tone out of. Folks that play a certain style of music that depends upon that kind of thing will keep the market afloat for quite some time.

The synthesizer didn't kill the Grand piano, did it? A Grand is a very impractical instrument, but it delivers a sound that many of us find pleasing -and thank heavens there is still a market for it!

[Dave Hopping]

Da Golden Age of tube amps predates Derek's birth by several decades,and his perspective is much the same as mine would have been if someone were to have suggested during the height of Beatlemania that I start playing one of Orville Gibson's harp guitars.
All that being said,I'm a tube guy forever--on six-string.Pedal steel is another story entirely.

[refin]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

I never got the whole tube thing. It never really made much sense to me, because I always viewed tube amps as being outdated and impractical.

Something about that solid state bite, that sharp, piercing tonal quality that made me love playing guitar. I'm not deaf, but by god, by the time I put this thing down for good, I should be. Otherwise, I just wasn't playing enough.

You're 20............I remember that age.
You'll get over it.

[Brendo]

Originally Posted by DMace

But, being a realist, I imagine that in a few generations (50 years) all amps will be digital in one way or another...if anybody's playing electric guitar at all by then.

I'm hoping the guitar shaped keyboards will make a massive comeback too...