Wonder when vacuum tubes will go the way of film

[DMace]

Originally Posted by Brendo

I'm hoping the guitar shaped keyboards will make a massive comeback too...

Everything old is new again.

[Wardpike]

11 out of my 13 amps are tube amps. One of them even uses EF86s !! Those are getting harder and harder to find, so a few months back I bought a 12-pack of them and have a couple of NOS ones as well. Most of my amps use EL84s (6BQ5s) and I have a few of those now... but I plan on stocking up on about 320 of them. I have one amp using 6V6s, '65 Bandmaster so I'll need spare tubes for that one also.

I would respectfully recommend to anyone buying a tube amp that you buy 5 years' supply of tubes for it MINIMUM. That means, a complete set of tubes/valves for it for each year for the next 5 years. 10 years, if you're able to!! Consider it a companion purchase to the amplifier.

So buy your Dr. Z stangray for the ultimate early Vox tone, and have 10 spare EF86s, 10 spare 12AX7s and 40 spare EL84s. You'll spend about $1000 in spare bottles for a $1700 amplifier but you can consider that a wise investment.

If we all did the same with every tube amplifier we purchase, then perhaps the demand for tubes would also increase and we could concentrate that into a viable market for 20 years from now when it might be an even GREATER concern.

In the meanwhile, perhaps we should buy and sell our archaic designed and beautiful sounding amplifiers with a 5 to 10 year supply of spares!

Other opinions may vary.

Ward

[PennyCentury]

Tube audio = even order harmonics = perceived as more musical

Transistor audio = odd order harmonics = perceived as harsh and unmusical

So it's not really our gear-head psychology, these perceptions are real and repeatable.

(that's what I'm told at any rate)

[scooteraz]

Well, film is not dead. Only Kodachrome. C-41 and E-6 process films (color negative and color reversal processes, respectively) are still being made in abundance. And the processes are well understood, and can be accomplished by the serious amateur (that was not true of Kodachrome, and the K-14 process). Both Kodak and Fuji make these films in a variety of formats. The reason for that is, as Ken Rockwell says, film is still loved. For certain applications, nothing beats film (landscape, the kind of photography that used to be in the Arizona Highways magazines, etc).

Tube applications are pretty rare these days. The Soviets did use tubes in some of their military hardware long after the US had converted to solid state for comm, sensor (think radar) and fire control systems. This was indeed because tubes were more resistant to EMP. We have supposedly learned how to harden our SS electronics against EMP, and certainly there are very few to no tubes in the digital systems that are coming off the military lines today. Way too much digital data for tubes to be of much use. In fact, the fact that there are so very many NOS tubes around is due to left over military stock being liquidated in the 1980s.

Tubes are still loved because the amps are simple (really, look at a tube amp circuit vs. a transistor amp), they are well understood and of course, the way they clip vs. a bipolar transistor. However, there are other transistors out there, and they clip more like tubes. And some folks are trying to make simpler triode amps using FETs in the stereo world (Pass Labs has several circuits on their website) that may could be the basis for a very nice analog semiconductor amp. But even so, most guitarists, harmonica players and some stereophiles swear buy tubes.

As far as tone, B.B. King played a solid state amp for years. Including a lot of time after the amps in question were no longer in production. Nobody seemed to think his tone was awful. Roland has made several relatively high power solid state amps that have a following. And of course, any number of metal bands have used solid state amps for the fact that they clip hard. Currently, there is even at least one boutique SS amp maker that I know of, Pritchard Amps A friend of mine has one, and he loves it (and it does sound good). But, as long a there is a demand for thermionic valves, even if in a niche market, there will be some tubes being made.

Of course, if Fractal is right, then about the time they double the horsepower of their current modeling device, and halve the price, tubes may be a thing only for hobbyists and museums.

[bandeapart]

As outdated as vinyl records are, there is still a huge industry for them. I help fund that industry multiple times a week, and going to Amoeba Records in Hollywood on any given day proves that this underground industry is thriving.

Vacuum tubes may go out of style, or out of popularity, but there will still always be a market for the purists.

I'm 23, but I'm appreciative of REAL music. I don't like computer chips, laser beam music, BS like that. I like a hot vacuum tube, wound magnets, and needles scratching against a surface.

[TheTransient]

I am only 20 and I am more inclined to use valve amps. So its not always an age thing :)
I use a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe primarily, but I also have an old Philips Valve Amp that my dad found and converted into a guitar amp which I really like despite the fact it lacks a pre-amp in it lol. I usually just put my little smokey amp in front of the Philips and it boost the signal significantly.

I considered getting a Fender 100w solid state amp as they are a lot cheaper (AUS $500 vs $1,200), but I heard really good things about the Hot Rod and figured I might as well get a good amp first go.

[casterway]

Originally Posted by Brendo

I'm hoping the guitar shaped keyboards will make a massive comeback too...

[Big John]

Originally Posted by iansmitchell

A guitar teacher of mine interned at peavey for a while. While he was there, his boss had a company come in, and because peavey does a lot of work with tubes, they asked him to analyze these new tube-replacement valves they had designed. Being a guitarist and a tinkerer to the bone, he decided to put a set of 'em in a classic 30 prototype he had.
Well, he cranked them up, he got a big jump in power from valves, but they worked relatively similarly.

I don't think thats a new idea though, i'll have a trawl around but i'm sure i can remember a company doing those in the 70's right down to a glowing LED, i can't see why anyone 'official' would be interested, it's ummmm, not rocket science is it ?

Just found this link and here, when they do finally bow out i'm sure there will be something to plug straight in there !!

You could always be like the French guy who scratch built his own

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by refin

You're 20............I remember that age.
You'll get over it.

Pardon me for not sticking to the status quo.

[Big John]

Derek, do i sense you don't like tube amps ??, that's fine of course, because i would shoot the next sound man who offers me a JC200 at a gig -- see !!!, --- we are ALL different and like different things to each other - and thats great too.

[T Prior]

why just a few years ago we didn't have a plethora of $39 tube preamps to dream about at night. Now we do. I say the hot glass tubes are coming back rather than going away ! Unless of course the Govt has a plan to bailout the solid state industry

By one SS amp or preamp get 25 for free , that should put an end to tubes once and for all.

[Wardpike]

Consumers for the most part are looking for "more for less". They work on price not value, unlike consumers of quality goods (like tube amplifier connoisseurs) who understand value. As musicians, we are all about sounds, tones, musicality. That which has it is endeared to us, that which doesn't we eschew.

[simonc]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

Pardon me for not sticking to the status quo.

One day you'll realise that Francis Rossi Kicks ASS!

in other news, 6V6's rock my world.Let them always remain in production!.

( I also like me some down home transistor based amp distortion - so I ride the fence on this one :)

[TG]

Interesting thread...and thanks to those who mentioned having several years supply of tubes on hand. I do believe I will do that too. A couple of dozen JJ preamp tubes and maybe a dozen el84s safely packaged away in the loft would be no bad thing.

But considering the amount of tube amps out there I would imagine that someone will manage to keep supplying them regardless what happens to the factories in Russia and China etc. I can't imagine a market opportunity like that not being exploited by somebody.
And even if I were ever completely tubeless I'd 'get by' with a Roland Cube amp. I love my tube amps but I can gig happily enough with my Cube60.

[bradpdx]

This isn't a matter of taste, tone or engineering - it's economics. Tubes will be around to service their current niche until that becomes impossible to profitably sustain.

There are several variables, including the size of the guitar-playing market and supplies of materials used in manufacture. I suspect that tube prices will gradually inflate as the technology becomes increasingly isolated from the mainstream and it is thus more expensive to procure raw parts, materials, tools and expertise. When a replacement set of tubes reaches a certain cost point, players will adjust just as in any economic system. The music won't stop, that's for certain.

I love my tube guitar amps, but I don't expect audio tubes to be available indefinitely. Perhaps long enough for my lifetime, but beyond that is hard to say.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by Big John

Derek, do i sense you don't like tube amps ??, that's fine of course, because i would shoot the next sound man who offers me a JC200 at a gig -- see !!!, --- we are ALL different and like different things to each other - and thats great too.

As a wise man once said, "Yep."

[backalleyblues]

I haven't heard a SS amp that can match the touch and tonality of a good tube amp-close in some cases (the Tech 21 stuff is not bad) but not quite there... assuming they finally get it right, then I'll use a SS amp. Until then, it's tubes all the way for me...

Franc Robert

[Brett Faust]

Maybe Kodak should make tubes instead of Kodachrome.

[guitarcody]

me too dude

[guitarcody]

Originally Posted by PennyCentury

Tube audio = even order harmonics = perceived as more musical

Transistor audio = odd order harmonics = perceived as harsh and unmusical

So it's not really our gear-head psychology, these perceptions are real and repeatable.

(that's what I'm told at any rate)

correction
Transistor audio = odd order harmonics =harsh and unmusical.
perception has nothing to do with it

derek: please name me a guitar tone that was played on a solid state amp that everyone will know, try to come up with as many as i do on tubes.
clapton's woman tone=60'5 marshall plexi
srv tone= super reverb
rockablilly tones: bassmans and the occasional marshall
la grange lick: marshall (with a strat surprisingly enough)
tony iommi black sabbath sound: vintage orange tube amps
and the list goes on, the solid state amp has one sound, and to phrase it as a close friend does, es no bueno por caca, les paul, the inovator himself who always wants to try new things would not be caught dead with a line 6 or any of these other wanna be amps

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by Brett Faust

Maybe Kodak should make tubes instead of Kodachrome.

RIP Kodachrome. Best film I ever shot.

Velvia just can't match the rich, yet subdued hues of Kodachrome.

[allen st. john]

Tubes are kind of like vinyl. It's become a niche market, but vinyl will probably be pressed after CDs have gone the way of the 8-track and Betamax.

There's also a small market for tubes in the high-end audio market. My tube amp and pre-amp are amazing things.

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

I never got the whole tube thing. It never really made much sense to me, because I always viewed tube amps as being outdated and impractical.

Something about that solid state bite, that sharp, piercing tonal quality that made me love playing guitar. I'm not deaf, but by god, by the time I put this thing down for good, I should be. Otherwise, I just wasn't playing enough.

Derek
Can I pet your hearing-ear dog?

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

RIP Kodachrome. Best film I ever shot.

Velvia just can't match the rich, yet subdued hues of Kodachrome.

Nor does Velvia have the green tinge of Kodachrome. But, I understand. On Tubes you are an iconoclast for the new solid state (better or worse), and on film you are an iconoclast for the ancient and creaky Kodachrome.

IDK, sometimes I got great results with Kodachrome (when shooting really bright colors) and sometimes I got crap (almost any scene with sky and clouds). Velvia seems to my eyes to be a more accurate film.

Sort of like tubes vs. solid state vs. modeling. Being familiar with the item and making it work the way you want it to is more important than exactly what the item is. For years, magazines used Kodachrome because they new how to deal with the green tinging of the original slide. We have years of experience making tube amps work the way we want, despite the shortcomings of tubes (heat, limited life, delicate nature, the need for the tube to be near saturation for the sound to be the best). For those who have put the time into SS, maybe their rewards will be good tone as well.

Just a thought.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by PennyCentury

Tube audio = even order harmonics = perceived as more musical

Transistor audio = odd order harmonics = perceived as harsh and unmusical

So it's not really our gear-head psychology, these perceptions are real and repeatable.

(that's what I'm told at any rate)

Arghh! Let's not trot out this old fable, please. While all myths have roots in truth, this is just gross over simplification.

Nothing in tubes or transistors intrinsically produces odd or even order harmonics when distorted. The reason that tube amps behave the way they do has much more to do with the design and topology of the old designs, just as the common and practical transistor designs (especially of the past) are tethered to the practical design constraints and commercial realities of their day that in turn dictate certain behaviors.

One may certainly design a tube amp that sounds like crap when overdriven. Easy. The topologies that work well (to our ears) in tube amps do not scale to transistors, which is not to say that the transistors are "bad" - they just don't produce the same accidental results as tubes in the same topology. You need something else.

Consider that the old tube amps we love were not designed to produce interesting distortion when overdriven; that was just a byproduct of practical designs of the '30s, '40s and '50s. Because it was an "undesigned" phenomenon, it is difficult to reverse-engineer. It is much easier to just build more tube amps using these tried-and-true topologies.

The efforts in amp simulation these days are very interesting, because they are attempting to recreate this "undesigned" musical behavior and doing so based upon empirical data. I suspect that over time they will eventually achieve this goal and others.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by scooteraz

Nor does Velvia have the green tinge of Kodachrome. But, I understand. On Tubes you are an iconoclast for the new solid state (better or worse), and on film you are an iconoclast for the ancient and creaky Kodachrome.

IDK, sometimes I got great results with Kodachrome (when shooting really bright colors) and sometimes I got crap (almost any scene with sky and clouds). Velvia seems to my eyes to be a more accurate film.

Sort of like tubes vs. solid state vs. modeling. Being familiar with the item and making it work the way you want it to is more important than exactly what the item is. For years, magazines used Kodachrome because they new how to deal with the green tinging of the original slide. We have years of experience making tube amps work the way we want, despite the shortcomings of tubes (heat, limited life, delicate nature, the need for the tube to be near saturation for the sound to be the best). For those who have put the time into SS, maybe their rewards will be good tone as well.

Just a thought.

That's exactly how I feel. I've put so much time into solid state amps that I've found how to get great tone out of 'em. I haven't had the same results with tube amps. For all the shortcomings that solid state amps have, I've discovered how to work them to my advantage. Tube amps are just a strange beast that I'm not interested in wrangling tone out of. Any time I try and use a tube amp, I can't stand the tone, and they never sound right to me. Too warm, too round, and they just lack the bite I love in SS amps.

And I always found Velvia to oversaturate blues too easy. It's not bad film, but I prefer Kodachrome.

Originally Posted by allen st. john

Derek
Can I pet your hearing-ear dog?

Ben loves being petted. :D

[telejake]

Originally Posted by petebradt

I have enough tubes to last me the rest of my life. So it'll be at least until I die.

Tubes have the sound. Nothing else does. When you get older, you and your peers will understand and then tubes will live on for another generation.

+1

[Kingpin]

Maybe someday digital will give you a convincing tube sound (and feel). But when that day comes I'll be damned if I'm gonna go out and buy all new stuff! Why bother when I already have the real deal!!

[Kebmel]

I play thru SS amps, older 80's Brit amps, they sound more like
tube amps than the SS amps being produced today.

But I wouldn't give you tuppence for the 'Modeling Amps'

I had a tube amp, loud as, but replacing and biasing tubes
was a pita.

I'm with Derek on this one.

[Tim Bowen]

It's my understanding that at one point, the Air Traffic Control industry was the single biggest consumer of vacuum tubes on the planet. They've struggled with formats for a long time, and who can blame them - who wants to slap themself on the head and watch planes collide due to a digital glitch when "antiquated" technology was working just fine.

I was so fascinated with the advent of digital technology. I bought samplers and keyboards and drum machines and MIDI stuff, and because I also worked in the graphic industry for 20+ years, I immersed myself in all of that as well. It was great when it was an option, less great when it was the mandantory medium of choice across the industry. Eventually, craftsmanship became less and less of a journeyman prerequisite, and second-guessing digital files of various levels of incompetence became the New World Order. The challenge of trouble shooting the stuff was cool for a while, but I eventually missed working with cameras, film, plates, X-acto knives, opaque brushes, and amberlith to the point where all that had initially drawn me to that industry had vanished, so I left and never looked back.

Musically, I'm not a total digital hater. I use some digital doodads, and at times, nothing beats the convenience of editing via a system such as Pro Tools. Although I must say that having two months worth of my hard work on a project on an engineer's Cubase system wiped out in one fell swoop due to a virus, was an extremely bitter pill to swallow; it reminded me of why I left the graphics industry. I think digital *can" be great for secretarial/general housekeeping organizational duties, but is rarely my first call for pure tone. That said, while I do usually prefer tubes and analog for electric guitars, I've found lots of use for SS and direct applications.

The thing that really chaps me is the madantory stipulation of digital television. I've hated digital television since day one. Sure, 357 useless channels is a cool option, I guess. And when it is working correctly, the resolution of digital images is vastly superior to that of antiquated analog circuitry - same as in comparison with that of old school four color process applications within the graphics industry, vs. "direct-to-press" imaging. However, it's always anybody's best guess as to why and when digital will fritz and crap out, and subsequently need to be second guessed or trouble shot. When digital technology does take a dump with graphic images - which it can be depended upon for such on a fairly regular basis - pixellation ensues, as do banded vignettes and goofy looking contrasts in the extremes, such as shadows - not to mention the unwelcome freeze/glitch that just wigs out and shuts down... same as within the commercial graphics industry.

So many folks make excuses for digital technology. I'll take "grainy" analog reception for 15 channels that won't crap out on me, vs. "HD" and more options than I'll ever possibly need, any day of the week.

[Nicky B]

Originally Posted by Brendo

I can't help but feel that they will lessen over time, and eventually become such a small market that you will only get a handful of boutique makers doing it. Larger companies nedd to shift units to make money, and let's face it, that is what they are in business for. Not to provide guitarists with the sound they have been searching for, not offer a product that a tech has poured hours of research into, but simply to make $$. To make the best profit, you shift thousands and thousands of units. For people to buy thousands and thousands of units, you have to keep the price within a decent range, meaning quality will need to go down. And then you advertise to the masses about how awesome you new (cheap, poor quality) amp is, and they will buy like lemmings falling into the sea.

The buyers of these amps are todays 15-30 year olds. They want cheap thrills, and the ability to get 15 amps in one (with modeling and DSP) means they are in heaven. And unfortunately they'll believe anything you want to tell them, because most of them are too lazy to find out for themselves. And then they train their kids, and the cycle continues.

There will always be someone who wants to buy tube amps, and there will always be someone who wants to make them, but they will become fewer and pricier. Sad, but even progress has a price, eh?

Yeah i know right? 15 year olds all just cheap thrills, i mean that's why i have a Tele, Blues Jr and no pedals... cheap thrills right there.

Seriously, blanket statements like "young people dont like tubes" or "why dont people today build things anymore" are never good. You may be right that MANY people in the 15-30 want cheap thrills, but not ALL. Think before you post.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by Nicky B

Yeah i know right? 15 year olds all just cheap thrills, i mean that's why i have a Tele, Blues Jr and no pedals... cheap thrills right there.

Seriously, blanket statements like "young people dont like tubes" or "why dont people today build things anymore" are never good. You may be right that MANY people in the 15-30 want cheap thrills, but not ALL. Think before you post.

THANK YOU!

I, for one, am tired of the bulls*** ageism that I see so much with guitar players and guitar shop owners.

[Colo Springs E]

Originally Posted by Derek McNelly

As silly as it sounds, I've never liked the sound of tube amps.

So you haven't liked guitar/amp tone on probably what, 75% of recorded music?

What kind of music do you listen to/like?

[Eric Karonen]

Apologies, I've skipped through the thread to post. I'm of the firm belief that as bit technology increases, emulation will supercede tube/valve amps. One won't be able to tell the difference in years to come.

[stantheman]

It's a specialized "market" with a HUGE following.
It would take a major sea-change in S/S Technology for it to happen; one where S/S would actually be "day & night" regarding superiority.
Only then - could it be a possibility.

[tboy]

Don't see it happening. I pride myself on sniffing out guitar mojo BS, and steering way clear. But I've tried everything, live and studio, and still come back to tubes every time.

[JosephB]

Originally Posted by GhostofJohnToad

That's what makes me wonder, Mark. Does everyone here think mp3s sound better, or digital movies look better?

nope...thats why a lot of bands still put out albums on vinyl. Despite the cost effectiveness of a digital sale there are always going to be hifi junkies in the music world who want the "true" sound. There was a time when vinyl was considered to be "dead", but it has since made a resurgence because of the superior quality. Same goes for guitar players...the tube amp will never be dead...it has come the closest it's ever going to come to death and has been revived due to it's great sound. For goodness sakes the king of solid state, Peavey, even makes a good tube amp.

[Big John]

Originally Posted by stantheman

It's a specialized "market" with a HUGE following.
It would take a major sea-change in S/S Technology for it to happen; one where S/S would actually be "day & night" regarding superiority.
Only then - could it be a possibility.

With respect stan we are not a huge following, in global terms all the tube guitar amp and hi-fi amp users put together don't amount to a particularly large group.

What is important is how much we are prepared to pay for our pleasures though, while tube sellers can buy mundane quality tubes (at best) and re-sell them at stupidly inflated prices with 'added mojo' and all the other bullpooh and hooplah then they will do so, it's not about 'tone', it's about profit, if the profit fell out of vacuum tubes then the market would surely go with it.

Luckily people are still prepared to pay a premium (yes, me too) and some pay super-duper premium for what they see as (and hear) as a superior product.

We've argued this here endlessly but the fact is you can't tell the difference unless you are playing through it, that great tone in that great song you just heard on the radio ?, could have been played through a POD.

[Derek McNelly]

Originally Posted by Colo Springs E

So you haven't liked guitar/amp tone on probably what, 75% of recorded music?

What kind of music do you listen to/like?

I never said someone else can't make 'em sound good, I'm just saying that I personally don't like the way they sound when I play through them.

I like the way my playing sounds through solid state amps better.

Originally Posted by Big John

We've argued this here endlessly but the fact is you can't tell the difference unless you are playing through it, that great tone in that great song you just heard on the radio ?, could have been played through a POD.

THANK YOU!

Big John gets it!

[Doug 54]

'prolly the age ol' question is:

Can the audience tell ??
NO.

But any great instrument-- amp, etc is for the PLAYER--
to paraphrase cello-rapper, Pablo Casals.

[DanofTucson]

Naw. They'll never go away. There'll just be a new Forum in tdpri where guys swap tips on how they make their DIY hand blown tubes.